Difficulty understanding God

Originally posted by UndesirableNo1
reply to post by kro32

 

But our faith is also tested through trials of adversity. Be careful using the word, "true Christian." Only Christ got it right.

Yes I agree. In fact the story of Job is my favorite out of the whole Bible. And by true christian I just meant someone that actually believes, nothing more. Probably the wrong choice of words there.

Christian means Christ like. Op should have used true believer.


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Originally posted by jhill76
Reply to post by UndesirableNo1

 

The first death is a physical death, what are you after you die. A soul right. The second death is the killing of the soul. No where in the bible does it state its eternal for man. Only the beast and the false prophet.

It states everywhere, have eternal life or perish.

 

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So you're saying... the Bible describes hell as eternal damnation for the Devil/the dragon, the false prophet, the beast? These are 3 separate entities from the Book of Revelations. I'm pretty sure I read in there that human souls were going to hell with them, "where there is weeping and gashing of teeth."

No. I said it only states eternity for the beast and false prophet. You best believe there will be man down there as well. The second death is the killing of the soul.


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reply to post by kro32


Job is your favorite book? The story of Job is something I struggle with so greatly.

I believe everything the New Testament says. I know God is a God of love - I have felt this spiritually. But the book of Job makes me angry. I do not understand it. Satan wants to prove to God that Job would not love him if he is stricken with misery. God allows Satan to ruin his life. God would have known all along the outcome, just like asking (was it Abraham?) to kill his son to prove it and then sends an angel to stop him. Why is it necessary to have children of God suffer? It seems like cruelty from God AND Satan, and then I get very lost when I read the New Testament.

reply to post by jhill76


I'm still not understanding what you're saying. Hell is the "second death", as it says. But you are making a distinction between human souls and the dragon/prophet/beast souls. I'm trying to follow you where you separate.


If God planned on damning souls, why would he not have killed Satan as soon as he rebelled? Instead, he threw him to Earth and gave him the chance to take his beloved humans (made in his image) with him? So he can damn them ALL? Why not give Satan his just punishment then and there and have LESS souls thrown into hell?

Reply to post by UndesirableNo1

It is not for God but for that individual person. Yes, father knows the outcome. But, when you have been through the bottom like you did as Job, he can say wow I been through all that and I truly love God. It's more of knowing it through experince rather than just saying it.


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Originally posted by vjr1113
congrats you found the loop hole. i was at you stage just before i became an atheist.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

i know i sound like a troll but good luck

btw some will tell you that it is not possible to understand god but will shove a bible down your throat

Seriously, that Epicurius quote fails at the very core. It all boils down to God letting man suffer because he brought it upon himself, and giving mankind the choice to reject Him and suffer, or accept Him and eventually not suffer. Main point?

Free will.

You get to choose, because He lets you. Sure, He already knows what you are going to choose, but He doesn't determine your choice, He just knows it beforehand. Could He change your mind? Yes, but then you would have no free will. An almighty God could make all of mankind worship Him easily, but what is the point of being worshiped by people that don't have a choice?

Reply to post by UndesirableNo1

Mankind being on earth is like a weeding out process, to see who truly loves God. I put the eternity part because you orginally included it in the op I responded to. Many churches tell people they will burn forever, which is not true.


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In this 'corner' of the vast and limited creation, God (the CEO) required the establishment of another outpost to foster the conditions and circumstances necessary for the placement of souls to wend thier way back to the godhead. (why this is done is a far longer story).
The CEO sent his/her managerial staff (angels and such) to this corner to establish the conditions...et voila...this universe (the edges of which we are unsure of - so what lies beyond?).
Having 'created' the orbs, with thier orbits, and placements, the rules defining this materialism were let to proceed, according to 'laws' (physical). The seed needed to be planted, in a 'garden', no doubt! (just like you would plant the seed into an egg when creating Invitro)...the being/s who 'created' us, were not necessarily, THE GOD...but were doing so, under instruction.
Some of these managers, one in particular, became haughty (yes, even angels have free will!), and thought that he/she should take the credit. Once the CEO heard of this 'insurrection', the favorite Angel of Light, Lucifer, was demoted from his/her position.
Jealousy can be a bitch! ...and since then, Louie Ciphers' 'effect' has been felt on this planet (for one)...fast forward to date zero b.c./a.d....the CEO sends down his Son to re-establish the rules of the game to a wayward creation - try to get it on track again.
Simple really...
Akushla

Reply to post by akushla99

Angels do not have free will anymore, this was changed after Satan fell. This is why angels look in astonishment at salvation.


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Originally posted by jhill76
Reply to post by akushla99

 

Angels do not have free will anymore, this was changed after Satan fell. This is why angels look in astonishment at salvation.

 

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I beg to differ...all creation is run on free will...only some free will is in line with the creators wishes, most isn't!
Free will is the cornerstone of personal responsibility...no free will, no personal responsibility.
A loving God would not deny, even angels, the gift of free will. They are not automatons! They have personalities!
Sorry to burst the bubble...
Akushla

reply to post by jhill76


Michael the angel mentioned it took him 40 days to answer someone's prayer because there "was a war in heaven." I'm not sure if that means it was a civil war between angels, or Satan attacking heaven because it doesn't say, but that was unrest in Heaven, again, after the fall of Satan and 1/3 of the angels. The Bible alludes to God making a new Heaven and a new Earth as if the old one was flawed. In the Old Testament, despite God being perfect, he seems to change his mind, all the time. It's almost like Old Testament God and New Testament God are different.

Originally posted by UndesirableNo1
reply to post by jhill76

 

Michael the angel mentioned it took him 40 days to answer someone's prayer because there "was a war in heaven." I'm not sure if that means it was a civil war between angels, or Satan attacking heaven because it doesn't say, but that was unrest in Heaven, again, after the fall of Satan and 1/3 of the angels. The Bible alludes to God making a new Heaven and a new Earth as if the old one was flawed. In the Old Testament, despite God being perfect, he seems to change his mind, all the time. It's almost like Old Testament God and New Testament God are different.

Interesting observation! Indeed, there were many 'managers' sent to this corner...the resultant documentation of the event, as mashed and simplified as it is, can be viewed in any hotel room, anywhere around the world.
Akushla

reply to post by akushla99


It makes me think that a great deal of "God" in the Old Testament was actually just angels being seen as "The Lord." And some of these angels deliberately did what God wouldn't want...like "Thou shall not kill," but please do kill all the people in the Holy Land before you take it so says the Lord. Totally throws me off.

Originally posted by UndesirableNo1
reply to post by jhill76

 

Michael the angel mentioned it took him 40 days to answer someone's prayer because there "was a war in heaven." I'm not sure if that means it was a civil war between angels, or Satan attacking heaven because it doesn't say, but that was unrest in Heaven, again, after the fall of Satan and 1/3 of the angels. The Bible alludes to God making a new Heaven and a new Earth as if the old one was flawed. In the Old Testament, despite God being perfect, he seems to change his mind, all the time. It's almost like Old Testament God and New Testament God are different.

War...insurrection...disagreement between the CEO and his/her managers...
Someone got haughty!
Akushla

reply to post by akushla99


You are incorrect. There are many angels who were made to be loyal and do work that Father sets forth. You can not speak on a subject you have no direct knowledge of. Once you are a true believer you have limited free will. Your path has been predestined, it states this many times in the word. How is that true free will?

I'm not all that well-read or enlightened but I have my opinion and I hope it helps you. God created us with a free will and the option to accept Him or not. I don't think we have any idea what hell is actually like other than it's not a place you want to go and it's complete separation from God. As a previous post states that most of our ideas of what it's like is taken from Dante's Inferno and others. I don't believe "fair" comes into play here as all humans have been given the choice to believe or not, some do and some don't. I don't have a good answer for you but I pray you find what you're looking for.

reply to post by UndesirableNo1


There are still battles fought to this very day. When there is a battle all things are put on hold. The battle is between above and below.

Originally posted by UndesirableNo1
reply to post by akushla99

 

It makes me think that a great deal of "God" in the Old Testament was actually just angels being seen as "The Lord." And some of these angels deliberately did what God wouldn't want...like "Thou shall not kill," but please do kill all the people in the Holy Land before you take it so says the Lord. Totally throws me off.

This should be a lightbulb moment for you!
Thou shalt not kill...is a precept designed to make the premeditated ejection of a soul from its casing, a no-no!
Incidentally, thou shalt not kill, requires that we do not kill anything for any reason. This includes eating meat, hence the mashed-up rules about food in religions...halal and kosher etc...
Stick to the message - God doesn't favour one creation over another...don't get thrown off by red herrings!
Akushla