Stop trying to convert me!!

Originally posted by undo
what if i could prove to you (with the same or similar quality of evidence offered for any other matter of history), that the ancient stories of our ancestors all over the world, were not outlandish fairy tales, would you agree to stop calling ancient texts, outlandish fairy tales?

Don't want to derail this topic, but yes, if you have actual prove I would believe them to be true.

Since that's not the point of the topic, any evidence you have should be PM'd to me or put into a new topic.

Response question: If I could prove to you that the ancient texts were outlandish fairy tales, would you agree to start calling ancient texts, outlandish fairy tales?

Originally posted by undo
oh and about the arrogance thing: as i said to him, it isn't about having a personality issue. it's about who you look to as your ultimate authority. if you say the government, i'll assume you are not well practiced at being honest with yourself, as YOU (meaning everybody) are always the first ultimate authority, before any others are chosen or rejected. AND any other authorities of varying magnitude of importance will naturally fall under your own ultimate authority, and further, they will often be filtered thru YOUR personal 10 commandments before you decide what stance you will take on them.

You're your own ultimate authority too. Even if you choose to follow god, you're following him out of your own will and authority over yourself. You chose to accept god, from you're authority, and you're the one who chooses to accept or reject any other authorities after that too. You have your personal ten commandments too, it's just that one of them says to accept that god's one of the authorities you personally choose to listen to, when you could ignore him by choice either. Hence, he was filtered by your personal 10 commandments before decided your stance with him too.

I won't accuse you of thinking you are you're own god though, even though you qualify for it as much as anyone else.

Saying someone thinks they're their own god, only demonizes their position. It's wrong, and it doesn't strengthen your position.

~
My personal authority, by the way, is reason. And yes, that does filter out using god as a source for authority.

Because my authority is reason, and not me, I can not just 'choose' for myself to follow god. Reason must choose to accept his existence and follow-ability through logic and objective evidence. My belief, is a compulsion given to me by my authority, not a choice I have the authority to make myself.

reply to post by xxsomexpersonxx


Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Originally posted by undo

Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Then it seems awfully deceitful to make it sound negative, and apply it only to atheists, when it's not negative, and applies to everybody.

Anyways, that is not the definition of god's we're working with. Making a mute point in the first place.

Originally posted by xxsomexpersonxx

Originally posted by undo
what if i could prove to you (with the same or similar quality of evidence offered for any other matter of history), that the ancient stories of our ancestors all over the world, were not outlandish fairy tales, would you agree to stop calling ancient texts, outlandish fairy tales?

Don't want to derail this topic, but yes, if you have actual prove I would believe them to be true.

Since that's not the point of the topic, any evidence you have should be PM'd to me or put into a new topic.

Response question: If I could prove to you that the ancient texts were outlandish fairy tales, would you agree to start calling ancient texts, outlandish fairy tales?

Originally posted by undo
oh and about the arrogance thing: as i said to him, it isn't about having a personality issue. it's about who you look to as your ultimate authority. if you say the government, i'll assume you are not well practiced at being honest with yourself, as YOU (meaning everybody) are always the first ultimate authority, before any others are chosen or rejected. AND any other authorities of varying magnitude of importance will naturally fall under your own ultimate authority, and further, they will often be filtered thru YOUR personal 10 commandments before you decide what stance you will take on them.

You're your own ultimate authority too. Even if you choose to follow god, you're following him out of your own will and authority over yourself. You chose to accept god, from you're authority, and you're the one who chooses to accept or reject any other authorities after that too. You have your personal ten commandments too, it's just that one of them says to accept that god's one of the authorities you personally choose to listen to, when you could ignore him by choice either. Hence, he was filtered by your personal 10 commandments before decided your stance with him too.

I won't accuse you of thinking you are you're own god though, even though you qualify for it as much as anyone else.

Saying someone thinks they're their own god, only demonizes their position. It's wrong, and it doesn't strengthen your position.

~
My personal authority, by the way, is reason. And yes, that does filter out using god as a source for authority.

Because my authority is reason, and not me, I can not just 'choose' for myself to follow god. Reason must choose to accept his existence and follow-ability through logic and objective evidence. My belief, is a compulsion given to me by my authority, not a choice I have the authority to make myself.

Well said...

Originally posted by xxsomexpersonxx

Originally posted by undo

Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Then it seems awfully deceitful to make it sound negative, and apply it only to atheists, when it's not negative, and applies to everybody.

Anyways, that is not the definition of god's we're working with. Making a mute point in the first place.

but i didn't make it sound negative. in fact, i pointed out twice, that it isn't a personality problem. you start off with yourself as your ultimate authority, a very natural thing, and make choices as to who will be other authorities in your life and which of those you may or may not accept as your new ultimate authority. if you choose yourself, you continue on in the natural path of your life. if you choose the most High, you follow that path instead (or try to, anyway).

reply to post by undo


You may want to be more careful with how you come off then. You're initial post on the matter did not do well conveying it the same way you did just now.

reply to post by undo


Ha, see alot of religious boys and girls will go to their bible to prove their point. A bible written and edited BY MAN is not proof!!! Just because it says it in there DOES NOT I say again DOES NOT constitute proof!!! Good try though ......but it says it right here......

Originally posted by itbenickp
reply to post by undo

 

Ha, see alot of religious boys and girls will go to their bible to prove their point. A bible written and edited BY MAN is not proof!!! Just because it says it in there DOES NOT I say again DOES NOT constitute proof!!! Good try though ......but it says it right here......

edit on 15-8-2011 by itbenickp because: (no reason given)

edit on 15-8-2011 by itbenickp because: spelling, both edits

well if you are not a god (hehe reminds me of a scene in the movie, ghostbusters)




if you are not a god, then your ultimate higher authority is not you nor is it god. explain this please?

reply to post by undo


Pretty sure we already covered this sir, ad nauseum......

Originally posted by undo
if you are not a god, then your ultimate higher authority is not you nor is it god. explain this please?

I explained this well enough, you glossed over it. You can say you are your own god too, not the real god, or you can say we aren't our own god's either. You can't slice it both ways.

Here:

Originally posted by xxsomexpersonxx
You're your own ultimate authority too. Even if you choose to follow god, you're following him out of your own will and authority over yourself. You chose to accept god, from you're authority, and you're the one who chooses to accept or reject any other authorities after that too. You have your personal ten commandments too, it's just that one of them says to accept that god's one of the authorities you personally choose to listen to, when you could ignore him by choice either. Hence, he was filtered by your personal 10 commandments before decided your stance with him too.

I won't accuse you of thinking you are you're own god though, even though you qualify for it as much as anyone else.

Saying someone thinks they're their own god, only demonizes their position. It's wrong, and it doesn't strengthen your position.

~
My personal authority, by the way, is reason. And yes, that does filter out using god as a source for authority.

Because my authority is reason, and not me, I can not just 'choose' for myself to follow god. Reason must choose to accept his existence and follow-ability through logic and objective evidence. My belief, is a compulsion given to me by my authority, not a choice I have the authority to make myself.

reason is only one facet of what it means to be human, and although it plays directly into how you view your ultimate authority and the rest of reality, it doesn't exist in a vacuum and is reliant on logic, math and physics. it also doesn't touch on things like love or compassion other than our ability to recognize thru reason and logic, that it is superior to love than to hate.

i stand by my original position, that if you are your ultimate authority you are a god who simply doesn't recognize his/her inheritance from the most High. you could frame it in different words that mean the same thing, however, that won't change the implication. if i say banana splits are good, or if i say bananas with ice cream, toppings, whip cream and nuts all served up in a single dish, are good, i'm still saying the same thing.

reply to post by undo


Sir, respectfully, I've stated my views on this many,many times in this thread, countered you point for point on why I don't believe as you do, and yet you keep coming back and coming back. Ill say it as politely and succinctly as I can, YOU are the basis behind this thread in the first place, religious types are annoying lil creatures who constantly keep pushing and pushing non believers until they feel like snapping. And if that's your goal your doing it quit well, if its your goal to keep pushing til you convert me then you have failed. It is not your place to pester, bug, or goad me into believing. It is MY choice on what I want to believe, MY choice on my view of myself, and my world. You can insist that I think of myself as a god all you like, but you will NEVER get me to believe its true or agree with you. Do you ever wonder why non believers are stand offish against believers? Its because believers don't know when to leave well enough alone. Quit bothering us with your beliefs. That's all we want, but believers keep coming back and coming back and all that does is exasperate an already volatile situation.

Well maybe you would like to convert to Skovianity?

It's totally worth it.

reply to post by Peppermint


Im not converong lol but Ill bite.....what's skovianity?

reply to post by itbenickp


not a problem. i'll leave, but just remember you put this thread in a public place. i also didn't accuse you of thinking of yourself as a god. i said, you were your own god. there is a difference. if the word god is that bad in your ears, i also offered ultimate authority so you'd get a clearer picture of what i was saying. but you insist on mischaracterizing what i'm saying to you as if i were attacking you and i'm not. i was just clarifying why some people (a question you did ask me btw) think atheism is a religion. and i' explained as best as i could that atheism is thought of as a religion by some because religion is a more specific way of determining who your higher power/ultimate authority is, which atheists would consider to be themselves (or in the case of the other fellow, their reason and logic). ultimate authority to a religious person is a god of some kind, typically a god other than themselves.

reply to post by itbenickp


So totally with you on this one.
It frikking amazes me that the biggest "GROUP" that goes around banging on your door do NOT even believe we have an afterlife, a soul doesn't live on after death according to Jehova's Witnesses. I will tell them according to your teaching it doesn't matter what the hell I do in life cause you idiots don't beleive our soul lives on that is what I will tell them next time those cuckoos knock on my door!!!! They beleive there is no final judgement!!!! So what the hell does it matter who the hell I accept into my life or don't????
If you don't believe me here:

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that a person is the soul the Bible speaks of, and when a person dies nothing lives on, the person is dead and is conscious of nothing. When the time comes for God to resurrect them from the dead He will create a new body for them from His memory.

Create a new body? Well if you don't beleive you simply don't get one and it really won't matter a damn cause you won't be around to worry about it your conciousness is gone so wth would be left to care if you don't or do get resurrected?

reply to post by ldyserenity


Haha, that reminds me of something i read on m FML app last night

"For the 10th time two Jehovah's witnesses knocked on my door yesterday, this time they asked me if I knew what the enemy of faith is, I replied "basic reasoning?" Turns out a copy of the watchtower really hurts when it hits you in the eye"

I agree with the op. It's seriously direspectful to try to convert others to a person's own belief without invitation. It's the equivalent of me knocking on people's doors trying to convince people that there is no god, it's wrong and i just would not do it.

When that tsunami happened in Japan a few days later a christian knocked at my door, I accepted the leaflet from them after they spouted their religion to me for a couple of minutes (yes, I was tolerant) but as soon as the person brought up the tsunami and told me that the tsunami was a sign of rapture (or something along them lines) I took deep offence and pushed the leaflet back onto the person. The christian was using mass deaths and tragedy to push her religious agenda, disgusting.

Practise religion all you like but keep it to your damn selves. If you're one of these types who like to try to convert people then **** you!!!!! You're only doing it because you think you're going to go to 'heaven' anyway, which is just selfish because you're only doing it because you think there's something in it for you at the end of it all. You have no idea that you have been brainwashed and what you should really be preaching is how man should worship man because only when mankind respects each other will there be peace. It's such a shame man created the concept of god, no one can deny how many lives would have been saved without religion and I'm not just talking christianity before you start feeling all 'persecuted' as a christian, I've seen that little card played a few times. Mind you, I never seem to have muslims or sikhs kncking at my door trying to brainwash, maybe those religions are more respectful of other people's beliefs as opposed to christianity?

reply to post by Hawkwind.


Pretty much what I've been trying to say this entire thread. Shoot, some could classify it as a form of rape, forcing yourself and your beliefs on an unwilling person.

Good grief, although I agree with the basis of my post I was in a bit of a bad mood when I posted it, even though this is the rant section I would have been less harsh in a lighter mood. I shouldn't really post in a bad mood but I don't plan it. I generally come onto ATS in a good mood then I start reading all manner of different posts and my emotions start geting riled up and in the end I need to vent. I suppose I need to give the place a break if it's having this effect on me.