Scholars are actively correcting mistakes in the Bible.....

reply to post by newcovenant


I have never in my personal experience in many churches met someone who will critically look at the bible and delve deeper into discoveries like this. NEVER!
I have asked questions many many times and never could be given answers.
Honestly many Christians don't seem to want to scratch below the surface...maybe they are afraid the truth will rock their faith to much..idk
Even on this very thread the Christians who have replied just adamantly believe and defend the holiness of the book and it was divinely inspired, and given weak excuses for inconsistencies.

reply to post by newcovenant

Volcanic eruption 'triggered biblical parting of Red Sea'
www.timesonline.co.uk...

So not Moses and his staff after a chit chat with the big fellow?

burning bushes, water into wine, ressurection, immaculate conception (although parthenogenesis isn't unheard of, doesn't imply divine conception), healing multiple people at sundown - Not historical claims, and using archaeological evidence isn't going to falsify these claims. Besides, people can often be mistaken.

That's all my point was; the bible is not a historical document, and many of the claims cannot be backed up by primary evidence, or any literature other than that of the biblical scriptures.

If these events were a common knowledge of many people, they would be documented in many more documents other than religiously superstitious documents.

Originally posted by NeverForget
The bible is not a historical document.

You can argue that the Bible doesn't prove conclusively that God exists (because in the end it does take faith to believe), but you simply cannot argue that the Bible isn't a historical document because there is tons of evidence in the archaological record that supports the stories and timelines.

Originally posted by NeverForget
There's no archaoelogical evidence of the Exodus, not one sliver of evidence, and no primary evidence of evacuation orders was ever produced.

Actually there is evidence, this is one of the more interesting bits:

A papyrus dating from the end of the Old Kingdom was found in the early 19th century in Egypt. It seems to be an eyewitness account of the events preceding the dissolution of the Old Kingdom. Its author, an Egyptian named Ipuwer, writes:

Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere.
The river is blood.
That is our water! That is our happiness! What shall we do in respect thereof? All is ruin!
Trees are destroyed.
No fruit or herbs are found...
Forsooth, gates, columns and walls are consumed by fire.
Forsooth, grain has perished on every side.
The land is not light [dark].

More here: starways.net...

Originally posted by NeverForget
There's also no evidence that the Red Sea parted

No one even knows where the crossing took place, so it's impossible to search for the evidence. You'd have to find the exact spot and then extensively excavate the sea floor to find artifacts. Because this has not been done is certainly not "proof" that the event didn't happen. To give you an example of the errency of taking such a position, for decades skeptics claimed that Pontius Pilate did not exist and therefore this was proof that the Bible was full of fairy tales. They claimed that someone as important as Pilate would surely have been written about in secular historic records. Then the "Pilate Stone" was discovered in 1961 and conclusively proved that not only did Pilate exist, but he held the position decribed in the Bible in the very time frame described in the Bible. So you see, the fact that evidence has not been found yet proves nothing at all.

Originally posted by NeverForget
There's no evidence that burning bushes talk to people.

The bush didn't talk to Moses, God did. And yes, there's plenty of evidence that God does speak to people and move in our lives, but it's all anecdotal and will not convince you if you don't want to be convinced.

reply to post by SavedOne

You can argue that the Bible doesn't prove conclusively that God exists (because in the end it does take faith to believe), but you simply cannot argue that the Bible isn't a historical document because there is tons of evidence in the archaological record that supports the stories and timelines.

Again, like i've said - The bible CAN be useful; language, tools, farming, social adherences.

Burning talking bushes? Divine ressurection? Immaculate conception? Vicarious redemption? Healing the blind?

Originally posted by Htrowklis82
I never went to a legalist church....I went to bible churches, christian churches, baptist churches, Pentecostal churches,

Then yes, you went to legalist churches. Any religion that teaches you that you have to live a certain way and do certain things to be saved is legalist. Most religions are legalist.

Originally posted by Htrowklis82
reply to post by SavedOne

 

Saved one, please answer the question I posed above...I will re-post it here. I would like to hear your answer.

Christians, Religious folk out there I have a question.

When there is presented such blatant evidence that man tampered with , and even lied about prophecy in the book you deem so holy and reverent, why don't you question or even get angry?
God gave you free will.....to think.
You are smart people (most).. Why does it not make you want to question or delve further for truth?
I am just putting it this way....
This very thing is what drove me from religion..and then Christianity as a whole. I started thinking and asking questions! I wanted answers about discrepancies, and all I got from church leaders was "your just having a crisis of faith"
Seriously!?
Thinking...is a crisis of faith, so what is faith...the opposite of thinking?

You seem to have a preconception that no Christian has ever bothered to research anything about the Bible or their beliefs. You've fallen into the trap that many others have, you think that because you investigated and it led you to unbelief that anyone else who investigates this will come to your same conclusion, but this isn't the case. Are you familiar with the Ontological Argument? The premise is that if you can imagine a perfect creator, that he therefore must exist. It's a classic philosophical argument that many secularists point to as proof that in fact God does exist, that if we can even imagine Him then He therefore must exist. It's a very complex subject well beyond what I could put here, but basically it's an example of how one can have belief completely outside of the Bible. The Bible simply is not a prerequisite for belief in God as so many unbelievers think it is. I came to belief through examination of my surroundings, I saw order and intelligence in everything in nature from the tallest mountain to the smallest blade of grass. I'm an architect by trade and I see order and balance in things that escape most people's notice. I believed long before I ever cracked open a Bible, as I mentioned previously I see the Bible as a supplement to faith, not as the pillar of faith. I think I also mentioned that I do not believe it to be inerrant, because men wrote it and their personal biases crept into it. For example, if you read the Leviticus chapters on owning slaves, per the Ontological definition God is a perfect being and it seems pretty clear a perfect creator would not condone slavery, so therefore the passage does not reflect the will of a perfect God. So it's in error. The Bible is not 100% perfect. So what? That doesn't impact my faith because it goes well beyond what's written in the Bible.

Originally posted by NeverForget

Again, like i've said - The bible CAN be useful; language, tools, farming, social adherences.

Burning talking bushes? Divine ressurection? Immaculate conception? Vicarious redemption? Healing the blind?

OK, well I can sympathize with this comment. My post was against those who claim the Bible is not a historical document, because much of it is. The Bible has a historical component which can be proved with facts & evidence, and a spiritual component that cannot. So your first sentence is the former, second sentence is the latter. The items in the second sentence cannot be proved or disproved, they require faith for belief.

And now I've got to get back to work, but it's been fun

reply to post by SavedOne

Are you familiar with the Ontological Argument? The premise is that if you can imagine a perfect creator, that he therefore must exist.

By that reasoning, If I can imagine an imperfect, or at least, an incompetent creator. (I.e. a creator that designs a realm in which destruction and chaos is the norm) then this imperfect creator must exist....

Perfection/Imperfection is subjective too. You can't compare the ontology of "I think, therefore I am" ( René Descartes) to "reality exists, therefore a "GOD" must have created it". Because it is what it is, an assumption, unfalsifiable, as is causation of reality itself.

reply to post by SavedOne

I appreciate the time you took to answer my question....
I do still question ones ability to have total faith in God, and have the ability to think.
It seems a very narrow perspective on life.

So you can still accept the bible as the word of God, even if there are proven falsehoods such as faked prophecies...or the switching of a word or sentence here and there.

What if, hypothetically it is discovered that God's "hatred" for homosexuals was something that was "inserted" into the text by man.
Now I ask this hypothetical, because you said that having faith does not mean Christians don't think for themselves. Also this is a major teaching in the Christian churches around the world. Christians judge homosexuals very harshly in the name of GOD, because the bible tells us so.
As a Christian, if it was found to be a man made detail added for political, or prejudicial means....Would you turn your back on that teaching?
Would churches all over the world open their doors welcoming gay families without judgment?
Or would the Bible still be considered the end all be all on this topic?

Does the appearance of falsehoods make you worry or question the veracity of the Bible at all?

Supposedly divinity spoke through men and those words were taken as the word of God....nowadays that is called schizophrenia. Supposedly angels appeared before men, that is called delusions and hallucinations today.
Just some modern perspective...
I guess if God was all powerful and as amazing as "they" say...then why did he not come down and hand someone his book. He could easily manifest it, he is uber powerful and created the world...supposedly.
All he gave us himself was the ten commandments, which are pretty logical great rules to abide by.
The rest of it the "bible" is great man made fiction if you ask me.
Edited to say: you said the bible is a supplement, but it is preached out of every sunday and carried into churches by millions of christians at every service. It seems like more of a foundation or pillar than a supplement.

The truth is, you have recieved the message that God exists, and you can read about his works in the Holy Bible. Wether or not you believe those works you have been witnessed to is up to you. God has given you a chance to seek him out on your own, if you fail, it is your fault and no one elses.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Exodus truly happened by means and modes of science. You can watch archeologist Simcha Jacobovici's Exodus Decoded here:

www.theexodusdecoded.net...

However, those who would argue the 10 plagues were caused by a Volcano erupting, keep this one thing in mind. The nature of God. He is a being who can manipulate, atoms,molecules and energies. Who can say he didn't tinker with the volcano, change some process here or there? Science will never be able to prove God exists, however it CANNOT disprove God exists either. This is a debate that will go on until the end of the earth, there will always be those who believe and those who do not. Much like the battle for good and evil, each side strives for some secret weapon to destroy the other, a tactic or stratagem that will ensure total victory over one or the other. Which will it be? Armageddon, where good triumphs over evil or Ragnarok, where evil triumphs over good? In the end there is only one being who has all the answers, who holds all the cards. It is a mystery that will be revealed to each and every person upon death, wether you go to heaven, hell or oblivion.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
The truth is, you have recieved the message that God exists, and you can read about his works in the Holy Bible. Wether or not you believe those works you have been witnessed to is up to you. God has given you a chance to seek him out on your own, if you fail, it is your fault and no one elses.

Why would God allow his message to be printed and translated by man, when man is knowingly imperfect, and thus his word would eventually be altered? There is a huge logical flaw in this idea. Why wouldn't God put his word on a big golden monolith and set it on the highest mountaintop surrounded by an impenetrable force field?

Why wouldn't God simply just tell us? Why would a logical, perfect entity create humans with a brain that is designed to think logically and rationally, and then command his creation to simply rely on faith?

There is a higher truth which humans will soon discover, and the realization that "God's" word was man's all along will shake the foundations of society and usher in a new age of truth, light, and love.

By all means, continue to visit your church of intolerance and allow yourself to be divided, deceived, and mislead. Oh yeah, please continue to open up your wallet and give them your money that you pay taxes on, and they don't.

Originally posted by Enlightenme1111

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
The truth is, you have recieved the message that God exists, and you can read about his works in the Holy Bible. Wether or not you believe those works you have been witnessed to is up to you. God has given you a chance to seek him out on your own, if you fail, it is your fault and no one elses.

Why would God allow his message to be printed and translated by man, when man is knowingly imperfect, and thus his word would eventually be altered? There is a huge logical flaw in this idea. Why wouldn't God put his word on a big golden monolith and set it on the highest mountaintop surrounded by an impenetrable force field?

Why wouldn't God simply just tell us? Why would a logical, perfect entity create humans with a brain that is designed to think logically and rationally, and then command his creation to simply rely on faith?

There is a higher truth which humans will soon discover, and the realization that "God's" word was man's all along will shake the foundations of society and usher in a new age of truth, light, and love.

By all means, continue to visit your church of intolerance and allow yourself to be divided, deceived, and mislead. Oh yeah, please continue to open up your wallet and give them your money that you pay taxes on, and they don't.

We couldnt remember all the laws even if he told us, not to mention he did write them down. The 600 commandments God wrote himself and gave to Moses, whom threw them at the golden calf idol the Hebrew were worshipping after God had just delivered them from Egypt and destroyed the first set in his anger and was punished for it by never being able to cross the river into caanan.

It is up to each and every person to read the laws and keep them. Your post is filled with venom, hate and anger. I'm sorry if you never had an experience of the Holy Spirit, or if you have ended up in a false church and had abad experience. Not all churches ask for money, mine doesnt and if we do tithe its on a voluntary basis.

Man left to his own devices would destroy himself. Look what the world has become since the start of the 20th century. Man created a weapon of immense destruction, the Atom Bomb and unleashed it on other humans. Without faith the world would be consumed by greed,sex,hate and all other forms of immorality. No it already IS consumed by it because faith is taking the backseat by man in his "infinite wisdom" doing things his way instead of obeying the Laws that were set down for us since time immemorial. Hitler tried it man's way and look what became of him, rather than obey the laws of the God of his mother and father, he ended up murdering sum 25 MILLION people, not just the 6 million Jews but 19 million Russians ontop of that.

The United States stopped doing things God's way LONG ago and look what we have become? A nation addicted to debt, paying debt with more debt. Children run rampant in the streets causing riots (Philadelphia), Parents to this day, of ALL ethnicities spew hatred and bigotry of their fellow man in a endless cycle and teach it to their children and grandchildren. Men climb ontop of towers and shoot at people going to school. Children come to schools with guns or bombs and kill other kids (Columbine) when other kids make fun of them.

So where is your so called "advanced society"? Are we living in an age of Truth, Light and Love? You my friend are living in a delusion of your own creation. You are so blind you cannot even see the forest through the trees. Man has been doing things his way since Yeshua was crucified, no even before then and look to where it has led us to?

Hmf, left to his own devices man will destroy himself, its happening world wide as we speak. Civil wars in the Middle East, London Burning. Nations world wide going bankrupt, drugs,sex ectc. People starving to death in africa because warlords exact a totalitarian grip on their peoples. How nice your World of Man has become!

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


I simply asked logical questions which you can't even answer logically. You also assume that I trust man to rule this world when in fact I state the opposite. You attack my logical questions by saying that I'm spewing venom, which is a very common tactic from the religious.

The same assumptions you make about me are the same assumptions which feed your faith. Man is lost because of many reasons, and the lack of truth is one of them.

reply to post by Enlightenme1111


You said:

There is a higher truth which humans will soon discover, and the realization that "God's" word was man's all along will shake the foundations of society and usher in a new age of truth, light, and love.

No i totally refuted your post and your flawed logic by using HISTORY as an example, thus negating your United Federation of Planets star trek logic that if man was in control than we would all usher in a life of "love,light and truth"

God's Law=God in control if man obeyed. Man doesn tobey God's law so man is in control. Clearly we have shown all throughout history that man didnt write God's law or man wouldnt be in the trouble he is now, nor have caused all the atrocities he has. You will never prove that God's law was orginally man's word all along. It may have been WRITTEN by man but was AUTHORED by God, by Him either sending His Holy Spirit to witness to man, or by telling Men like Moses whom wrote it down for us.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Yea because No war was ever fought in the name of God?
Not to mention the crusades! Salem witch trials...warren jeffs and other child abusers who do there deeds cause the god of religion anointed them too!
No harm has ever come to man in the name of religion?
I believe in a higher power but no religion or set of rules will define that belief for me.
I care for others and try to do right by everyone. I Just try to be the best citizen of this planet I can be.......and if that means I get to burn in "hell" to make room in heaven for a baby raper who "prayed" for forgiveness, well you can have heaven to yourself then!

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by Enlightenme1111

 

You said:


There is a higher truth which humans will soon discover, and the realization that "God's" word was man's all along will shake the foundations of society and usher in a new age of truth, light, and love.

I used "God" in quotations because I am referring to the God created by man to control you. In my belief (notice how I don't state that as fact), I think there is a higher truth - a God of truth, love, and light. Man is indeed lost, but not for the reasons you might think.

I don't expect you to believe anything I say, and I encourage you not to. It's up to you to find truth, and not to follow what others say. It's a very personal journey. You don't need books or man to describe what is within you.

I love you, regardless of your beliefs.

The bible, as a work of man, is limited in its scope inherently. To claim something that we as humans can create as an item can summarize the absolute, even if looking strictly at the physical universe, is preposterous. It points to something beyond itself innately. A total understanding of anything is "difficult" for us, especially continuously. Though, perhaps it is less what is contained solely within these things, and more how we personally view and use them that matters.

Sticking strictly to the bible (due to context of thread), certain subjective ideas can be yielded. Most of which are not followed through upon by those who claim them as their religion.

We can get the idea that God is omnipresent. Which itself may indicate that the bible, even as a work of man, has God within it but is used (abused) by those who choose of their own free will. However, this also means that he can be found in all things and not the bible exclusively.

We can see how so many use the word of God, but deny him totally in their actions. (Scroll down to verse 11/12). Even in the "holy book," where many have put their sole faith, they are not Christians by their own doctrine. Having "peddled" faith sold to them for convenience followed by no change in action.. It creates repeat customers and is very profitable!

If someone has their faith rocked because of learning the.. inconsistencies within the bible, then maybe they did not have an active faith in God, but in where they perceived to have found an exclusive, static, and limited concept of him. It is also where many have been told is the only place to do so. I think most of those are not concerned with what it actually says in the bible, so corrections et. al. would likely go unnoticed anyway.

Faith and thinking should not be separate. Though indoctrination and thinking usually are.

Really interesting topic though. On one hand, it seems to be beneficial to correct and explore our own mistakes in such a way. On the other, I doubt it will change much as far as most organized religion goes, due largely to indoctrination and greed. People have to search it out for themselves, and carry it through their actions, and that is exactly what most do not want to do. Time will tell. Either way, it should be educational to learn about the progress of the project from a historical standpoint. Thanks for bringing it to ATS, I was not aware of it before. Pulled me out of lurking anyway

Just proves once again, man cannot tamper with the sacred texts. Why do you think the Name of our Heavenly Father YAHUWAH YHWH was taken out? Hmm? Why do you think the true Name of the Messiah Yahuwshuwah was taken out? Is it the Bible or The Scriptures? The word Bible doesnt even exist in the 'Bible'. Its quoted as 'Scripture'. Who do think was messing around with this stuff? The Catholic Church since 70 CE.

Now to say the original sacred texts ie the dead sea scrolls are wrong, based on what? A few people in a room who didnt see them write it are saying its wrong? Doesnt prove much, other than Scholars still dont know what they are translating, and reading.

Read the article!

If what is mentioned there, and the examples given, surprise anyone... it is because the surprised ones (like several of those who have posted so far) have no concept of how Bible scholarship is done. It is scholarship. Surprised?

There are minor variations in the texts found-- incredibly minor. This is not new.

There are many resources available to use to find which manuscripts and fragments contain variations.

Take a look:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f13d18c7e7d5.jpg[/atsimg]

That is New Testament Greek. See all those footnotes?

They are not explaining text-- they are sourcing the manuscripts, codecies, fragments, etc. and any and all known variations. Oldest is usually, but not always, best-- because oldest may be a regional copy with a bad edit not contained in slight newer ones from several different region which are all in agreement.

Moreover, this is exactly how all modern translations have occurred-- consulting all of the fragment and manuscripts known. Many Bibles-- probably all translations that I own-- footnote where a translation is seriously disputed, and the alternative provided.

Very few variances even hint at intentional tampering-- until very recently. For example, several translators quit the NRSV project because the editors wanted (and eventually secured) certain word choices which were not supported by the scholarship, but they felt would increase sales. But the modern politically intended mis-translations are well known to scholars-- and not used. Some churches use them, which might suggest something about those Churches who embraced a translation known to be falsified.

So, if an MSNBC reporter thought scholarship was other than he first suspected it to be, that only says he did not suspect enough-- I don't think the typical Communications major takes graduate level classes in languages and methods of the scholarly translation of ancient texts.

This thread is garbage... the old testament is historically accurate and is the same 4000 years ago as it is today, the dead sea scrolls have confirmed this.

Case closed.