The Problem with Utopia: Why Capitalism is our only option

reply to post by RogerT

One exception, why do you think the only alternative to money is a barter system?

Yes. I am yet to see some system proposal which is:
1. not very vague and says nothing concrete
2. does not contain the equivalent of monetary system inside, just obscured or simply called differently
3. is not equivalent to a barter system, simply called differently

If you have some better alternative show me.

reply to post by Maslo


Well what about Fresco's RBE?
Yes, it asks a lot of humanity, given the current state of play, but if you really think it through, you might surprise yourself.
Joseph does a good job of creating the right context for it in ZMF (Zeitgeist Moving Forward), and his interviews and rebuttals that you can find on YT are even more astute.
I think he is missing a piece or two of the puzzle, but I find the majority of his conclusions to be fairly self-evident and don't see any obvious logical flaws.

ETA: when I say 'think it through' I mean you have to actually be willing to agree with the premise, suspend disbelief, hold that for a few days (or maybe weeks) and let the idea begin to speak to you. Once you decide you can actually play for that team, all the questions you were asking as a skeptic start to answer themselves. It's fun. Enjoy

reply to post by jjf3rd77


Just to reply to the "human nature". Such thing does not exist. People resemble the environment they were raised in and live. A guy in a getto must will act and thing differently than a person raised in amish type environment.

More than 50 years of research and people still don't get it.

Originally posted by RogerT

Originally posted by jjf3rd77

And while I believe that most jobs will eventually be over taken by computers, there is still a lot of questions that need to be answered for us to put in this type of utopian system in place. I honestly wouldn't mind the idea of the Venus Project sometime in the future. But It is IMPOSSIBLE to put it in place now, and it was IMPOSSIBLE to have it in place during any other period in time!!!!!

edit on 16-8-2011 by jjf3rd77 because: (no reason given)

Dude, argue for your limitations and they're yours. would you mind terribly if I don't agree to share your view of impossibility. Call me a renegade, call me a fool, just don't call me Mary. hugs.

I never said it was impossible. I would welcome it. But you have to think of transition and how this type of society cannot be put in place without highly advanced technology sometime in the future.

reply to post by krzyspmac


I was talking about human nature as in emotions and greed and how they reacted to the environment and limited resources and how early man created the monetary system because it was the only option.

Originally posted by jjf3rd77

Originally posted by jjf3rd77

But It is IMPOSSIBLE to put it in place now, and it was IMPOSSIBLE to have it in place during any other period in

I never said it was impossible. I would welcome it. But you have to think of transition and how this type of society cannot be put in place without highly advanced technology sometime in the future.

OK, you said it was impossible now.
Yes, transition is the key. How do we get from here to there? I have some ideas, so does Fresco, so do lots of people.
I still don't agree it's impossible and I do think we have the technology to do it now, or at least, we have the capability to create the technology now. We can agree to disagree on this, but it won't be long now before the theory will probably have to be put to the test, as money doesn't look like it will last much longer, and barter really sucks!

reply to post by RogerT


I would certainly like to hear your ideas because I have not heard any really concrete ideas on exactly how to set up this society with highly advanced technology and/or brainwashing.