A candid judgment of American Culture

I am a natural born American, not a foreigner. I am a citizen. I am under 30.

I have looked at and weighed every aspect of my generation. My people do not resemble their own ancestors anymore. Their entertainments are nothing but vice.

Every concept of virture that once flourished among the people has vanished. Let me repeat that. We have fled away from our own understanding of good and evil, and replaced it with the very devil.

Look at the entertainments of my own generation. TV reflects the values of a vile and corrupted people. Male - female relationships are more like animal affairs than anything civilized, based upon the make-believe world of screenplays and the music industry.

We have fallen a long ways from the traditions of our fathers, and replaced them with the same old vices that plague every corrupted nation since the dawn of civilization. Promiscuity and divorce and personal vice aren't any different than they were in Ancient times, and they destroy nations just the same way.

America isn't founded on nightclubs, drugs, and a culture of promiscuuity. Those things are VICES, not ok things. They have ALWAYS been vices. They have become universally prevalent among the urbans areas, and my ENTIRE generation considers them to be ok. They don't have any other idea presented to them. Girls consider sexual experience to be somehow good, and boys don't understand what virtue is past getting a job and earning money. These are your children, America. There are my brothers and sisters.

Our entire value system has been hijacked by the marketplace. Now, it isn't good unless it is rich and virtue consists of buying and selling, earning money and contributing to the wealth of the corporations or the community.

These things aren't new: Ancient cultures had the same understanding of these matters as we. Never before have the two been so confused: Holy men were understood to be holy, and the vices of society were always understood to be vices.

Our media has been entirely taken by a monopoly of forces who share the same agenda, namely the ecapsulation of the American popluation into a virtual reality of their creation, where trivial and useless knowledge is pumped 24/7 into the TVs, radios, and newspapers. Nothing outside of the system is given to us, and nothing of any depth is explored within it. It is merely to placate and influence the minds of the masses.

The entire concept of education has been hijacked from its original purpose of producing citizens capable of governing a nation and weighing, judging, and determining the direction of the society in which we live. Now it is a mill in which to learn how to become service to industry, drones in a society in which individuals have absolutely no control or say in its workings, and all lessons of religion, virtue, and classical understand has been systematically stripped away.

In the place of any real knowledge or science, the masses remain illiterate as their ancient ancestors in any real sense, they can read letters and write, but have no knoeldge of what came before, or any ability to discern the future. They are drones, because they were prepared to be drones, by other drones, who are not able to make anything but drones.

Can you name the publicly enshrined virtues of the nation? If it doesn't have any, then it is dead. If the people can't tell good from evil, then they are all given over to evil and it won't be long before they fall into ruin.

It's not like there's never been a great nation on the earth before. There have been several, and they all follow the same rule. Most of them lasted longer than a few hundred years before they fell into ruin. I don't think evil has ever held such a total rule over a nation as large as America before. That perhaps is a new thing. But how much faster will it break down then?

Thoughts? I would love to hear you on this one. Please give me a reason to defend my country.

Arkaleus

I agree with you as far as the media is concerned. 99.9% of americans are viewed as a vote and a TV rating and little else by the "powers that be".

As for vices, well.. I'm always wary of people on their soapbox warning me about the evil around me. I don't trust people without a vice, because if it's not visible, then it's probably something worse than sex, drugs, or rock and roll. I like my vices and I don't begrudge others theirs.

On the other hand, materialism tends to accompany the fall of empire (or so I've read), so maybe you're on to something. Personally I don't think you can fight against it in any rational way. People should be more concerned with themselves and their family and friends more than society as a whole, because it's all we can do. My two cents. Now pass the joint.

-koji K.

Arkaleus,

Why must we all share your values? On your previous post about Islam you pretty much made the same point. I don't consider these things vices. I consider them living. If you personally are not comfortable with sex, drugs, and rock'n'roll, then don't participate. You do not decide what is good and what is evil. It's all a matter of perspective. Of course we are not like our ancestors, we evolve, at one time people worshipped the moon and the sun as gods, which we all agree is stupid, as we evolve, we discover answers, and new questions emerge. Again, I state, I am against corporatations having influence over our government and that should stop, but I would never support any religious values taking the place of the corporations in dictating our lives. It seems you have an intense fear of the "devil" or anything you percieve as evil, in this I fear you too have been brainwashed, not by the corrupt government or corporate America, but by fundamentalist religion and values, you no longer think for yourself, and your chains are as thick as those who are slaves to the American system.

[edit on 17-8-2004 by 27jd]

27jd.

I am not a fundamentalist Christian. I am not an Arab Muslim. I'm a German Irish Cherokee who studies all knowledge and worships the Father of Intelligence.

You do not decide what is good and what is evil.

How do you vote? By flipping coins? What does a judge do? Consult entrails and soothsayers? You insult the human mind with such a statement. In truth, only evildoers say that there is no good and no evil. It is one of their biggest lies, and should be taken and siezed wherever it is found. Determining good from evil is the most basic form of human intelligence. Everything is built on it, and nothing exists outside of that foundation except shaitan, and even he/she/they knows the difference.

Sex drugs and rock and roll eh? What an ignorant people said this. Didn't you know that these things are vices, and were considered vices by our own ancestors? How is it that you have made a vice into a good thing? You have all rebelled against your parents, and now you face the consequences.

You excuse your foolishness and commit evil with both of your eyes open. You call this a culture? Did you think that sex drugs and rock n roll were great cultural achievements? Are they not the same corruptions that have always existed among mankind? You have earned every curse given to you for corrupting your own offspring.

I judge this culture to be evil. I judge everything that comes from it to be evil. It's TV, the music, the sex, the drugs, the drunken parties of youth, the marketplace, the economy, everything about it is the lust of evil people, and serves nothing but the same old enemy of our race, shaitan and his demons.

The only jewel remaining in it is science, and her crowned head of inquiry, for it has achieved what all other men could not do. Yet I cannot justify the rest of the nation beased upon the achievements of science, for one far outweighs the other, and will eventually overtake and destroy it and all its virtues.

Judge your own nation, Americans, don't give me this "don't judge" crap, you aren't religious people. So don't quote Jesus and scriptures to me, I know you are not really following them. Judgment is a civil matter, and I insist that you be men about it.

Arkaleus

For the way you talk I though you were older. TV only portraits now what it has been in society all alone, it is nothing new, divorce crime, now Promiscuity you were not able to see that because girls were force into marriage very young.

I agree that the media and the market has taking over but that is how our entire society is base on business.

I agree our education is down the hill and you are right is just making children to become slave in society and big corporations.

Now I don�t agree that is evil in America in the way you describe but I do believe that people has deviated from their spiritual purpose in life.

Spirituality has been misunderstood and redefine by society and religion.

Originally posted by Arkaleus

Our entire value system has been hijacked by the marketplace. Now, it isn't good unless it is rich and virtue consists of buying and selling, earning money and contributing to the wealth of the corporations or the community.
...

Our media has been entirely taken by a monopoly of forces who share the same agenda, namely the ecapsulation of the American popluation into a virtual reality of their creation, where trivial and useless knowledge is pumped 24/7 into the TVs, radios, and newspapers. Nothing outside of the system is given to us, and nothing of any depth is explored within it. It is merely to placate and influence the minds of the masses.

The entire concept of education has been hijacked from its original purpose of producing citizens capable of governing a nation and weighing, judging, and determining the direction of the society in which we live. Now it is a mill in which to learn how to become service to industry, drones in a society in which individuals have absolutely no control or say in its workings, and all lessons of religion, virtue, and classical understand has been systematically stripped away.

In the place of any real knowledge or science, the masses remain illiterate as their ancient ancestors in any real sense, they can read letters and write, but have no knoeldge of what came before, or any ability to discern the future. They are drones, because they were prepared to be drones, by other drones, who are not able to make anything but drones.

...

It's not like there's never been a great nation on the earth before. There have been several, and they all follow the same rule. Most of them lasted longer than a few hundred years before they fell into ruin. I don't think evil has ever held such a total rule over a nation as large as America before. That perhaps is a new thing. But how much faster will it break down then?

I agree with the portions quoted above. I also have reached those conclusions. But your understanding of the concept of vice is erroneous IMHO.

In fact, it is one of your �vices� that started me on my journey seeking knowledge, you know, the one that "opens the doors of perception". I did not try that vice until I was 25 due to my French-catholic upbringing. Had I been loyal to a faith that was not my own, I may never have tasted of the tree of knowledge.

I even agree with this statement:

If the people can't tell good from evil, then they are all given over to evil and it won't be long before they fall into ruin.

Except that I would call it right and wrong or fair/unfair or even yin/yang. Good and Evil do exist but they are not some metaphysical beings, they are in each of us and may or may not be expressed in our current state depending on our individual level of �enlightenment�.

There is a book by Howard Bloom titled �The Lucifer Principle� in which the author explores the role of evil in history and as the book jacket says:

�explores the intricate relationships among genetics, human behavior, and culture to put forth the thesis that �evil� is a by-product of nature�s strategies for creation and that it is woven into our most basic biological fabric.

It�s a pretty good read.

Edit: correction

[edit on 8/17/2004 by Gools]

Originally posted by Arkaleus
I am not a fundamentalist Christian. I am not an Arab Muslim. I'm a German Irish Cherokee who studies all knowledge and worships the Father of Intelligence.

I don't really care what kind of fundamentalist you are, or what father you worship. That's your business.

How do you vote? By flipping coins? What does a judge do? Consult entrails and soothsayers? You insult the human mind with such a statement.

You are NOT a judge, and as for the rest of this statement, I'm not going to even pretend to know what you're talking about.

In truth, only evildoers say that there is no good and no evil. It is one of their biggest lies, and should be taken and siezed wherever it is found.

Wow, you're a genius. First off, where did I say there is no evil? There is plenty of evil, people who kill or justify the killing of others because they do not believe the same things they do are evil, just to give one example. But smoking a joint, drinking a beer, or adults engaging in consentual sex are NOT evil at all. And if you think they are, then I can tell you where you can put what you think should be siezed. Whatever the hell you meant by that.

Determining good from evil is the most basic form of human intelligence. Everything is built on it, and nothing exists outside of that foundation except shaitan, and even he/she/they knows the difference.

Fine determine all you want, JUST KEEP YOUR DETERMINATION OUT OF OTHER PEOPLE'S LIVES!!! I will determine for myself what is good and what is evil. I don't need you or shaitan to tell me the difference.

Sex drugs and rock and roll eh? What an ignorant people said this. Didn't you know that these things are vices, and were considered vices by our own ancestors? How is it that you have made a vice into a good thing? You have all rebelled against your parents, and now you face the consequences.

What gives you the slightest inclination to believe our ancestors didn't have "vices"? And you call others ignorant? I have not rebelled against my parents, they have "vices" as well, as did ALL of our ancestors. Wake up, pull your head out of your @$$.

You excuse your foolishness and commit evil with both of your eyes open. You call this a culture? Did you think that sex drugs and rock n roll were great cultural achievements? Are they not the same corruptions that have always existed among mankind? You have earned every curse given to you for corrupting your own offspring.

I have no need to excuse my "foolishness", and yes, sex drugs and rock 'n' roll sure beat the hell out of groveling at the feet of a "god" that does not exist while depriving myself of all the fun life has to offer. And you contradict yourself (no big surprise) when you ask if these are not the same "corruptions" that have always existed, yes they are, and the ancestors YOU say we are shaming engaged in them as well.

I judge this culture to be evil. I judge everything that comes from it to be evil. It's TV, the music, the sex, the drugs, the drunken parties of youth, the marketplace, the economy, everything about it is the lust of evil people, and serves nothing but the same old enemy of our race, shaitan and his demons.

Fine, Judge Judy, take your gavel, pack up your things, and move to a land free of corruption, I hear Antarctica is still void of shaitan and his minions, you should be right at home there.

The only jewel remaining in it is science, and her crowned head of inquiry, for it has achieved what all other men could not do. Yet I cannot justify the rest of the nation beased upon the achievements of science, for one far outweighs the other, and will eventually overtake and destroy it and all its virtues.

How can you speak of science when you are completely ignorant to it? It is science that has debunked these ancient "virtues" you wish to cling to so badly.

Judge your own nation, Americans, don't give me this "don't judge" crap, you aren't religious people. So don't quote Jesus and scriptures to me, I know you are not really following them. Judgment is a civil matter, and I insist that you be men about it.

I will give you this "don't judge" crap, because you are in no position to do so, you are insignificant in the lives of your "fellow" Americans you hate so much, so really your judgement means absolutely nothing. So I guess you can judge all you like, be my guest. Nobody cares.


[edit on 17-8-2004 by 27jd]

Again you are showing yourself to be a true spirit Marg.

What I havce recently discovered is most americans can't understand that American culture is a great big lie. They fell in love with the dream taught to them by their corrupt elders, and could never bring themselves to see things for what they were.

It hurts to see grown men encounter the truth so late in life. It hurts to see an entire people being played for fools by the folks they helped to make rich, or vote into power.

I gotta rock the boat.

Arkaleus.

in regards to corporate control and money being the majpr influence on politics, i agree, its # and should stop... the same goes for religion influencing politics...

As for the social aspects like 'nightclubs, drugs, and a culture of promiscuuity', i like these things... the world revovles around change and we cant keep being cultural prudes holding on to values which went out with the 50's... i see nothing wrong with having fun and sleeping around, as long as your careful about it and dont harm others

I don't wanna beat the tar baby any mo.

Muhammed said it best: "Your foul deeds will seem fair to you."

If you call me a Muslim, you are complimenting my Father, My Mother, and are doing a good deed before God.

Arkaleus

Arkaleus:

If you are calling me wicked don't bother. You have no right to judge me based on one post.

I don't wanna beat the tar baby any mo.

Does that mean you are taking your ball and going home? Are you here to learn or preach and convert? This is a DISCUSSION board.

Muhammed said it best: "Your foul deeds will seem fair to you."

I know little of Muhammed, but there is wisdom in that statement. For example you calling us "Wicked Children" probably seems very fair to you.

If you call me a Muslim, you are complimenting my Father, My Mother, and are doing a good deed before God.

I won't because you are not. You do not have to be moslem to quote Muhammed. A moslem would have added some sort of praise like "may peace be upon him".

It is the word INDOCTRINATED that comes to my mind.

that I beleive the passages I quoted above (edit: in my first post) are true for "Western" culture in general and not just American. It's the same in Canada.

[edit on 8/17/2004 by Gools]

Dontcha know the story 'bout the tar baby?

THE WONDERFUL TAR BABY STORY
"Didn't the fox never catch the rabbit, Uncle Remus?" asked the little boy the next evening.

"He come mighty nigh it, honey, sho's you born--Brer Fox did. One day atter Brer Rabbit fool 'im wid dat calamus root, Brer Fox went ter wuk en got 'im some tar, en mix it wid some turkentime, en fix up a contrapshun w'at he call a Tar-Baby, en he tuck dish yer Tar-Baby en he sot 'er in de big road, en den he lay off in de bushes fer to see what de news wuz gwine ter be. En he didn't hatter wait long, nudder, kaze bimeby here come Brer Rabbit pacin' down de road--lippity-clippity, clippity -lippity--dez ez sassy ez a jay-bird. Brer Fox, he lay low. Brer Rabbit come prancin' 'long twel he spy de Tar-Baby, en den he fotch up on his behime legs like he wuz 'stonished. De Tar Baby, she sot dar, she did, en Brer Fox, he lay low.

"`Mawnin'!' sez Brer Rabbit, sezee - `nice wedder dis mawnin',' sezee.

"Tar-Baby ain't sayin' nuthin', en Brer Fox he lay low.

"`How duz yo' sym'tums seem ter segashuate?' sez Brer Rabbit, sezee.

"Brer Fox, he wink his eye slow, en lay low, en de Tar-Baby, she ain't sayin' nuthin'.

"'How you come on, den? Is you deaf?' sez Brer Rabbit, sezee. 'Kaze if you is, I kin holler louder,' sezee.

"Tar-Baby stay still, en Brer Fox, he lay low.

"'You er stuck up, dat's w'at you is,' says Brer Rabbit, sezee, 'en I;m gwine ter kyore you, dat's w'at I'm a gwine ter do,' sezee.

"Brer Fox, he sorter chuckle in his stummick, he did, but Tar-Baby ain't sayin' nothin'.

"'I'm gwine ter larn you how ter talk ter 'spectubble folks ef hit's de las' ack,' sez Brer Rabbit, sezee. 'Ef you don't take off dat hat en tell me howdy, I'm gwine ter bus' you wide open,' sezee.

"Tar-Baby stay still, en Brer Fox, he lay low.

"Brer Rabbit keep on axin' 'im, en de Tar-Baby, she keep on sayin' nothin', twel present'y Brer Rabbit draw back wid his fis', he did, en blip he tuck 'er side er de head. Right dar's whar he broke his merlasses jug. His fis' stuck, en he can't pull loose. De tar hilt 'im. But Tar-Baby, she stay still, en Brer Fox, he lay low.

"`Ef you don't lemme loose, I'll knock you agin,' sez Brer Rabbit, sezee, en wid dat he fotch 'er a wipe wid de udder han', en dat stuck. Tar-Baby, she ain'y sayin' nuthin', en Brer Fox, he lay low.

"`Tu'n me loose, fo' I kick de natal stuffin' outen you,' sez Brer Rabbit, sezee, but de Tar-Baby, she ain't sayin' nuthin'. She des hilt on, en de Brer Rabbit lose de use er his feet in de same way. Brer Fox, he lay low. Den Brer Rabbit squall out dat ef de Tar-Baby don't tu'n 'im loose he butt 'er cranksided. En den he butted, en his head got stuck. Den Brer Fox, he sa'ntered fort', lookin' dez ez innercent ez wunner yo' mammy's mockin'-birds.

"`Howdy, Brer Rabbit,' sez Brer Fox, sezee. `You look sorter stuck up dis mawnin',' sezee, en den he rolled on de groun', en laft en laft twel he couldn't laff no mo'. `I speck you'll take dinner wid me dis time, Brer Rabbit. I done laid in some calamus root, en I ain't gwineter take no skuse,' sez Brer Fox, sezee."

Here Uncle Remus paused, and drew a two-pound yam out of the ashes.

"Did the fox eat the rabbit?" asked the little boy to whom the story had been told.

"Dat's all de fur de tale goes," replied the old man. "He mout, an den agin he moutent. Some say Judge B'ar come 'long en loosed 'im - some say he didn't. I hear Miss Sally callin'. You better run 'long."

Thanks to Virginia.edu for the site.

Arkaleus seems to make it a point to state in almost every thread that he was born in America, and that he's not an "arab muslim". But the way his ramblings read, he is either an American trying to sound like a fundamentalist, western society hating muslim, and probably being a wise guy, or he really IS an "arab muslim" who is trying to convince us (and probably too obviously) that he is an American who just REALLY REALLY hates his country. Just read some of his previous posts on other threads here, he has stated that we would bathe in blood, and that America will fall and such. Now, has anybody here known an American that hates his country THAT much? I can understand dissent for the current, worst of all times, administration but this guy hates EVERYTHING about our culture, or what he calls lack of culture. Seems strange to me, one way or the other.

[edit on 17-8-2004 by 27jd]

1. I'm not a Christian....or any other organized faith.
2. I'm an American.

I don't think this tv world you're talking about truly represents American culture at all.

Drugs, nightclubs, etc. are not part of my world. My world revolves around my family, my loved ones, and my friends. I enjoy art, fine food, and generally living life, but not at the expense of others.

I enjoy helping my fellow man, but also note how dangerous one can be, and try to remain cautious. Because of family and friends (different races, sexual preferences, living with different cultures, etc.), I've learned tolerance, and acceptance, and can ignore our differences.

I try to do the right thing, and have a pretty good sense of my own morality, despite the lack of belief in some absentee father figure in the sky...

Your culture level is what you make it....not what the media makes it. While the media are nothing but ratings whores, people are to blame for their actions, not the media, and it's time they took responsibility for their own attitudes.

Gazrok:

I could not agree more with your points. I'm 99% atheist with 1% agnostic!

I'm on ATS, not watching Wife Swap (a real show in Canada! - I saw the commercial during a news cast) or any such nonsense.

But you have to admit that large portions of the population fall under one or all of those conclusions I quoted. People who work in the media, people who follow "fashion", image, fads, and the higher monetary classes etc.

Originally posted by Gazrok

Your culture level is what you make it....

What's a "culture level"?

I never made on of my own.

Now see, let me interpret the tar baby story for you. You who have joined together against me in this forum are the tar baby. I can hitcha and hitcha but all I'm gonna do is get stuck in the tar.

Can't make you think by anything I say, you don't understand the words I use, and you don't have anything to contribute to my points.

27jd, you aren't debating me. You are insulting me and trying to make trouble for me. Stop being such a jerk and meet me as an equal in your words. If you truly love your country, then speak to me as a citizen and address the issues I spoke of.

Instead of focusing on the issues I brought up, you have all attacked me.

I am exactly what I said I was. American. I just happened to not approve of the things in America, or in its activites. That's called conscience, and intelligent dissent. Our founding fathers did that too. They died because they hated things that are a little too intellectual for you to understand. Things like liberty, freedom of expression, and the right of citizens to form their own government.

You seem to have nothing in common with them. You just want to extend your vile lifestyle indefinately, eat and drink your fill, and strike out at those who disagree with you. So who is the true American here?

If all America is to you is booze, drugs, women, money and sex, then you are ignorant, filthy people. I see plainly the things you do, and am free to weigh them in public, just like you live your vile lifestyle in public.

I know what you guys are, you aren't righteous folk. Shame on me for trying to discuss righteous matters with you. You don't really give a crap for America's future. You just don't think that way.

Arkaleus

I for one agree in spirit.

I think what he is saying (which I have thought numberous times) is that empires do not die from invasion so much as they rot from the inside. The reason that virtues are what they were, is that the "vice" is the rotting agent. When the rotting agents outweigh or replace the virtue, then there is no regulation, and humans create gods of themselves and proclaim themselves to be the sole controler of their lives.

But America is the land where we value personal opinion and the individual. Our views (regardless of what they are) are taken very seriously, so any disuading that goes on will probably not work.

My whole point, is that you can not stop it. The only way to stop the decay is to either be distroyed or to start again.

All empires have a certain end point. They are because human nature prevails in the end.

All I gotta say here is that your thinking in a frame of mind that is a stage... Many people go through this stage... As you get older you will learn that smart people and many people, realise this and stem away from that...

I'm 21, I realise this, I can't speak for my friends back home they are apathetic which makes me sick but I can't change them, if they want to live under a rock let em.

Anyway, People will grow out of this frame of mind, I do agree America is being run by the marketplace, it's our job as people with brains to recognize this and not partake in it, which is what I do...


I turn my cheek to the mind numbing ads, tv shows, I help small businesses out like hardware stores instead of going to a franchise, I don't participate in the idea that wearing slutty clothes is cool, I don't participate in purchasing chick magazines that subliminally mind # you into believing that if you don't have this or that or don't act this way or that then your nothing...


It comes down to being a strong logical confident human being, like what you want, the more knowledge the better, help your fellow American friend anyway you can, be a good neighbour, and for god sakes respect the constitution and our founding fathers for being so brave, so smart, so NON PARTISAN which is ruining this country btw.... And yes you john kerry and bush lovers i'm blaming you for being so stupid..... VERY STUPID....

Kerry is a #ing liar, bush is a #ing liar their sell outs, their appeasing us and you guys are eating it up like monkey's would a banana...
you make me sick... You guys are the reason why this country is going down the crapper, your enabler's......

If you guys really had the ethics you claim to have and the brain you claim you use, you would realise this, but your eating all the hype the media pumps into you sponges and regurgitating it like a bunch of zombie like robots...


How do I stem away from this???

I educate myself keep an open mind, try and learn new things everyday, endulge myself in adventures like travelling, water sports, and discovering new things and ideas... I give my attention to my husband, my dog, my house, and my family, friends, and neighbours. I help out the small guys in my town so they don't go out of business, I listen to music from 1985 and back, anything that isn't what i'm being told to listen to or attempted to be shoved down my gullet... I reject partisan politics because both sides are telling me what to BELIEVE.......IT'S HORSE# PEOPLE, YOUR ALL TROLLS, THEIR BOTH USING YOU, THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT YOU OR THIS COUNTRY, BUT BECAUSE THEY MAKE FALSE PROMISES YOU BELIEVE EM... THEIR SELL OUTS... AND YOUR #ING UP THIS COUNTRY ROYALLY...
I guess when you get #ed up the ass a few times you become apathetic and just learn to put up with it, just as long as they don't # you too bad right......

So ark back on topic,

American culture should actually be American pop culture because thats what your really talking about here.......
It's a phase, a new wave that will be replaced by another wave, by the time the new one comes you'll be more grown up and you'll just learn to block it out, all new waves suck in some way or another you just have to identify yourself and your people by more DEEPER THINGS.... The rest is bunk...