Yes Republicans, there IS a global test...

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Basically what I'm saying is Bush was spending 330b more than he should even if we count two wars. Obama is spending 1.4t more than he should. Obama wants to tax the American people few more TRILLION per year to make up his HUGE and I mean Huge spending that at this point is of out of control.

Are Obama's expenses a direct result of the debt America is in because of Bush's wars?

War expenses that are not listed as part of Bush spending?

I would say no for the mere fact that Obama doesn't blame his spending on Bush's wars.

So you refuse to directly answer the question.

Was Bush's war expenses included in his official expenditures or not?

reply to post by beezzer


Bush was a republican. If he never screwed the economy in the first place Obama wouldn't have inherited this mess and screwed the economy even more. The fact is both parties are to blame. Who the hell (Bush) runs a budget deficit when the economic forecast looks good? Whoe the hell (Obama) continues to pursue reckless spending and fails to apply the money in the right areas when the economic forecast dosen't look good?

Americans have a huge problem with taxes especially when the rich have to pay. I guess it is just because those rich people are far smarter than the poor. However, in Australia we have an extremely efficient progressive tax system that has allowed us to influence the economy positively when times are bad and run minimal budget deficits, and increase reciepts and collect money for a rainy day (such as today- both figuratively and literally) when times are bad. With a booming mining, insurance, finance, construction and internet sector- we can thank the government (I never thought I would say that) for injecting money into the economy in the appropriate areas and not spending it on useless crap. For example when the recession hit the government stimulated the construction and internet sectors resulting in increased infastructure and the beging of a national broadband scheme bringing the interent to more people (rural areas) creating more jobs and increasing efficiency. For example some farmers have taken to the internet to sell the stock. It's definetely Keynesian economics, however thanks to a generally responsible government and the mining sector, we went through the recession only winded.

reply to post by HunkaHunka


Riiiight... so that is, and will be part of the reason why the left in power will try to claim that we need a Global Government, and we must give up our rights "for the good of all"...

The world has seen the effects of such "central type of governments"... They always become tyrannical...

I know HunkaHunka that you would love for every American to be forced to work for free for the government, since you have said so yourself...

I know that obviously you don't think that individual rights are important, since for you "the right of the whole" is more important, but you see, we have been talking about this for years. This has been exacly their game plan, and people like you are falling for it...

In the history of mankind we have seen, and experienced what happens when "the right of the whole" supersede individual rights. When individual rights are not important in a society EVERYONE suffers... Because, in case you didn't know EVERYONE has individual rights...

You want another Cuba, or former U.S.S.R., or Communist China?... You can even go to Burma and see how well such a mentality has changed a nation, and how people are treated "for the good of the whole"...

If the S&P is blaming this on previous administrations, and they support the actions of the current administration....then why is the Obama Administration declaring the S&P as a "facts-be damned" situation. Meaning that the S&P is wrong.

What I find hilarious are tea party members who say they're not affiliated with any party yet they defend republicans at any cost.

For those of you who don't think Bush didn't play a part in this economic fiasco let me jog your memories...

-Enron Scandel (Investors lost 50 billion and cost taxpayer's three times Enron's losses)

- The Savings and Loan Scandal (Cost to taxpayers 153 billion dollars)

-The illegal Iraq invasion/war and the Afghanistan War (Cost to taxpayers over 3 Trillion dollars)

-The Bush tax cuts (Cost to tax payers 11.5 trillion dollars)

-Billion dollar contracts that favored Haliburton (Cost to taxpayers over $270 billion dollars). Audits revealed taxpayers money was wasted. There was 6.3 million in kickbacks resulting in overcharges. 50% of the contracts were awarded without competitive billing.

-Expanded the federal budget by a historic $700 billion

-Bush began a string of expensive financial bailouts

Nearly half of Americans incorrectly think President Obama started the the bank bailout program, otherwise known as the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP), a new poll shows.

-Bush created a Medicare drug entitlement that cost an estimated $800 billion

-Bush increased federal education spending 58% faster than inflation

-Bush was the first president to spend 3% of the GDP on federal antipoverty

-Bush had annual budget deficits averaging $300 billion annually

-During the Bush administration discretionary federal spending was far higher than in any year of the Clinton administration.

Two wrongs don't make a right!

Both the Republicans & (Tea Partiers) and the Democrats are responsible for this economic fiasco. Just because the current president's spending is out of control doesn't make the previous administrations less guilty.

Enough of this baloney - BOTH the Republicans and the Democrats are to blame.

Both sides have actively worked to run us into debt every chance they got. Federal spending and borrowing has been going straight up for the last 60 years. It really is very simple, our economic system REQUIRES boom and bust periods, it has to even out over time. Our government, and particularly the FED under Greenspan arrogantly thought they could avoid the down cycle. All they managed to do is to cause a down cycle that will be much larger then ever, because it should have happened at least 12 years ago.

The Fed and the Gov have basically used up every bit of credit we had left the last 3 years in a completely stupid attempt to put off the inevitable even longer. Basically they went all in with their life savings holding a 2,7. They have failed as was a mathematical certainty before they even started.

Raising taxes cannot solve this problem, the absolute max dollars you could possibly get out of raising taxes is less than 400 billion a year, any more than that and it will actually cause tax receipts to go down. Taxing alone does not come close to solving this problem. Neither does just defense cuts, and neither does defense cuts and tax increases. Entitlements HAVE to be cut. There is no other alternative. It is impossible to pay out 360,000 in medicare on average when the average person pays in less than 120,000. NO BS can hide that simple truth.

If you are still choosing a side you are clueless as to how big this problem is. Neither party can make this problem go away - it is way beyond that. It is beyond any kind of political solution now, the debt is just to large, and the entitlements considered to much of a sacred cow. Only a complete collapse will snap people back to reality, and discharge the debt that must be flushed from the system before any hope of a REAL recovery can happen.

To the OP, it is ignorant of you to blame either party. Shame on you

This going around in circles - Blame Bush / Blame Obama is exactly why there is little chance for the USA to get out of the fiscal crisis they are in.

They can't get past the party rhetoric, they will defend their party at all costs.


GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEADS, NEITHER PARTY SUPPORTS THE PEOPLE

(and yes, the Tea Party, while good at its inception, is now just a shell)

You idiots. There are no sides in this, unless you are one of the handful of retards that has caused this. We are all together in this sh!t sandwich. Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, Green, Tea Party, Coffee Drinker, Baby Boomer, Gen-Xer and newborn are all properly screwed.

When you quit the bickering back and forth about whose party is right and whose is wrong, maybe you can see that we are all getting hosed.

Originally posted by CaDreamer

‘AAA’—Extremely strong capacity to meet financial commitments. Highest Rating.

‘AA’—Very strong capacity to meet financial commitments.

‘A’—Strong capacity to meet financial commitments, but somewhat susceptible to adverse economic conditions and changes in circumstances.

‘BBB’—Adequate capacity to meet financial commitments, but more subject to adverse economic conditions.

‘BBB-‘—Considered lowest investment grade by market participants.

‘BB+’—Considered highest speculative grade by market participants.

‘BB’—Less vulnerable in the near-term but faces major ongoing uncertainties to adverse business, financial and economic conditions.

‘B’—More vulnerable to adverse business, financial and economic conditions but currently has the capacity to meet financial commitments.

‘CCC’—Currently vulnerable and dependent on favorable business, financial and economic conditions to meet financial commitments.

‘CC’—Currently highly vulnerable.

‘C’—Currently highly vulnerable obligations and other defined circumstances.

‘D’—Payment default on financial commitments.

Note: Ratings from ‘AA’ to ‘CCC’ may be modified by the addition of a plus (+) or minus (-) sign to show relative standing within the major rating categories.

www.standardandpoors.com...

www.usdebtclock.org...

Should be CCC - .....
at best, biased on where we are headed, see above link, if we even make it there.
Looks like Ron Paul was right in the 2008 election cycle, when everybody was laughing at him and said he was crazy nutjob...well guess what, he called it. Not so crazy after all.

Yes, because those tax cuts are the reason we are in DEBT.....get a clue!



reply to post by HunkaHunka

reply to post by HunkaHunka


reply to post by HunkaHunka


Of course there is a global test in a globalized world!
No one lives in a vacuum in the age of globalization and there are much more dangerous consequences ahead, if this partisan finger-pointing bull# continues.
I cant believe this madness on the verge of ruin its time to grow up and do what actually works in the real world!!!

reply to post by macman
There is no doubht that we all knew this had to happen at some point.

Why is it that americans suddently are getting suprised about this money crisis. The rest of the world has been playing by the boring rules. Yes i know, not all countries, but many of us. And we all saw USA become America.

In the 90s all i knew about the US was that the president had grey hair and always was a republican, strange enough.. But i had respect for the Republicans because it seemed like economy was they're thing. And in a country where money is power it would be logical that the goverment was just alike.

But in the recent years this has changed in looks and politics, but the spending has been going up the last 20 years. First a gently slope and then full burst to the top.

You don't deserve it. Because it is bad. And we don't deserve it. Definently!

But yet again we're gonna ride the economic crazy ride because the politicians on both sides don't put their future to the side and take that responsibility they have. Wich one of them is your crazy tax system that is WAY off!.

Stop talking about socialism, its not real. I live in Norway and i live well.

I not just live well but get the treatement i need. Yes there is queue in many health related situations, But not even close to the US situation. We have a oil fund, but never use more than 4 % of oil money on the budget. In some years we will be independent from the oil and will then know that we can stand the future when the oil is gone.

This does not seem to be the situation in the US.

Just take this situation and make some noise so the politicians change your budget. You don't need to be the world police anymore. Actually, we never really asked...

We love yout country and much of your culture, but these days its like having bush as the population.

I know you have different views, but have you seen what the majority of the american voice has said out to the rest of the world?

I mean. Does the word Somalia ring a bell? Hama? Syria unrest? Italy with its 8th rank on world largest economy. If they fall.Well then hell is loose. And the EU don't have the money....

It suck to say it but it feels #ty having to be affected by your economy over and over again just because someone don't want to pay that extra it takes. And its not even that much.. Not a huge country, but many people.


And by the way... We pay 11 dollar per gallons while you pay around 4 dollars?? Its just crazy. The difference is that we pay a # load to the goverment.

So just fix it this time.

Remember that if you all cut down the usage of ice with one third you will be energy independent again...

The problem cannot really be assigned to one president. The problem is coming from those that control the banks. Read this in its entirety and you truly have an understanding of what is going on. You will see why things are unfolding now as they are and what is going to happen in the future. (Especially with gold.) This little snippet brought it home for me in that text.

"To cause high prices all the federal reserve board will do will be to lower the re-discount rate..., producing an expansion of credit and a rising stock market; then when... business men are adjusted to these conditions, it can check... prosperity in mid-career by arbitrarily raising the rate of interest.

It can cause the pendulum of a rising and falling market to swing gently back and forth by slight changes in the discount rate, or cause violent fluctuations by greater rate variation, and in either case it will possess inside information as to financial conditions and advance knowledge of the coming change, either up or down.

This is the strangest, most dangerous advantage ever placed in the hands of a special privilege class by any Government that ever existed.

The system is private, conducted for the sole purpose of obtaining the greatest possible profits from the use of other people's money.

They know in advance when to create panics to their advantage. They also know when to stop panic. Inflation and deflation work equally well for them when they control finance..."
Rep. Charles Lindbergh (R-MN)




History of Money

Wrong, but thanks for trying.

The fault lies with both parties. Obama could pull us out of Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya tomorrow if he wanted. How many hundreds of billions would that save? Politicians from both parties have been spending the taxpayer money on pork projects for decades. Seems to me the consensus of both parties on the Hill is, "Oh China will bail us out."

To think that this debt is strictly Republican caused problem means you are a partisan moron. Now quit trolling.

reply to post by beezzer


When are people going to stop?
Stop blaming everyone
Stop passing the buck
Stop all the associated bs

Start doing something that actually helps.
Start caring about our country
Start voting out the idiots that perpetuate the decline only to fatten their pockets

Has alone ever really thought about what is really going here. We are two dictatorships fighting eachother. The president has to leave office after 8 years but congress and senators can stay of life.... Have ever thought that both parties are not doing what is best us but what keeps them their jobs and lines their pockets from big business

WOW we ARE certainly playing the "blame game" on this thread. blame one party, no blame the other party, no it's the fault of the tea party for pointing it out. on and on it goes.

the SAD thing is all of it has it's points. BOTH parties are worthy of blame, the "tea party" for all the interference is even worthy of blame. but even that is not all that is at fault in this mess.

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776

Asked who was to blame, Chambers said, "This is a problem that's been a long time in the making -- well over this administration, the prior administration."

.

personally i think the important WORDS in this statement is just a bit ahead of what many people have jumped on. "well over this administration", i think is a key issue. that to me means back BEYOND even Bush jr. the debt wasn't nearly created within the last 2 presidents. it is something that has been building for DECADES. all raising the debt ceiling has done or will do is just make things worse in the end. THIS is a key point and ALL presidents, members of congress and even the senate have had a hand in for many, many years. it is not something that JUST HAPPENED now. even states and cities have a hand in on it. how many states and how many cities even have run in the BLACK? for those who may not understand running in the black means within what said entity has to spend, as opposed to in the red which is spending MORE then comes in.

spending in access of what comes in is something that seems to have run rampant throughout most government entities. not just in the US but in pretty much every government on earth. still this does not make any government "not to blame". but it is not ONLY the fault of the government. can't really blame the average citizen tho because of voting those who have had the power into power. the thing is that no matter WHO won whatever election, the debt still goes up. sure some might not have been as bad as others but that difference is like adding a bucket of water to a lake, or not.

PART of the problem is government overspending. the fact that corporations and rich don't pay NEAR enough taxes is yet another. but that isn't even all the reasons we are where we are today.you see taxes are based on what a person EARNS. as well as what comes INTO the country (duties) another place tax money comes from. so a good chunk of blame actually resides in the hands of corporations and the rich. this is because THEY have decided that they are more important then everyone else. now this may seem strange, but in reality it really isn't.

here is the thing they have HARMED the ECONOMY in more than one way. all in the name of bigger PROFITS for themselves. first off by going the route of making more profit first by OUTSOURCING. that is by having stuff made in countries where LABOR costs are far cheaper. this hurts in many ways.

first and foremost is loss of jobs for the average citizen. no work means, no income, which in turn not only means no or very little tax being paid by them, but the fact they rely on the government PAYING THEM. so instead of the government receiving money from them, they now end up loosing even more by having to use tax money to pay them. a double whammy. for example, joe blow when working paid say $5000/ year in tax, but now that he is unemployed he RECEIVES $20,000/ per year, that means that the government is out of $25,000 in tax revenue. yes i just pulled those numbers out of my butt, but it's an example of how it works.

then there is the issue of wages. again in the name of profit, especially at retail level the people who actually DO the WORK are payed little, while the guys at the top earn MILLIONS/year each. i used to laugh at my old job, saying "let me be a ceo for ONE YEAR then i will retire". not only is this rather an unfair pay setup up for the guys at the bottom, but if that money was spread out it would mean the worker bees (the guys who don't get unfair tax breaks), would have more taxes to pay. not only that but if the general worker makes more it means he WILL SPEND MORE, thus keeping the buying of things happening which creates jobs and puts yet more people to work. both making and selling stuff. where as if you make a few million a year chances are most of that will just be sitting idle removed from the buying of the things that is needed to make the economy work.

i do have some ideas to help fix the economy and even the deficit.

first any import should be taxed in such a way that it is NOT CHEAPER to build elsewhere. simply put if the object would cost $20 to make here but in another country it costs $0.50, the put a $19 tariff on it. (figure the other 50 cents for shipping expenses). not only should this cause companies to re-start manufacturing stuff back in America, but would give the government a hell of a lot of income in the meantime. something like this should have been done long ago, but hey when big business and the rich have the government in their collective pockets what else is to be expected. the government hasn't worked "FOR the average citizen" for a very long time.

another thing to be considered is salary caps. that is that there is a MAXIMUM amount that is allowed to be earned by any individual in any one job. there really is no need for someone to make a few million every year. the money not spent on the top dogs can be then spread out among the peons. thus producing more TAX money. not to mention more money actually used to buy goods and services, which incidentally creates even MORE tax money in the process.

then of course fairer taxes. not only should those with the major cash pay at LEAST the same percentage of tax, but since they tend to make so much more then they really need, to do their FAIR share and pay EVEN MORE tax. seriously how many multi million dollar houses does one person NEED?

the government should also watch pricing of stuff. sure something of better quality SHOULD cost more than a piece of junk, but the price for both should be FAIR. for example i'm sure most are sick and tired of gas prices going forever up, with the gas companies parroting that it HAS to go up because of the price of oil going up.ok this does make sense, but on the other hand if gas companies are so hard up barely making any money, then how come they have a bad habit of tearing down and rebuilding gas stations every two or three years? if they have money to throw away like that as well as making HUGE PROFITS, how is this true? obviously they don't NEED to continue raising prices. it's just a convenient excuse to make THEMSELVES even richer.

as for the government itself. first of any cuts THEY need to make should start with THEMSELVES. if they can't keep spending under control, well then they don't deserve perks and big salaries as they obviously aren't worth the expense. not only that their salaries should be tied into the people they supposedly serve. not a salary percentage but what the average PERSON in their area makes. so if say 60% make $20,000/ year then why should they make more?

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
So today I wake up to read about the downgrade in our credit rating...

www.cnn.com...

And I was very surprised to read the following

"The downgrade reflects our opinion that the fiscal consolidation plan that Congress and the administration recently agreed to falls short of what, in our view, would be necessary to stabilize the government's medium-term debt dynamics," S&P said Friday shortly after markets closed.

So the S&P and other credit rating agencies sit in judgement of our congress... so there IS in effect a Global Test...

Now the representative from the S&P goes on to point out specifically one of the issues that greatly contributed to the downgrade.. and it's the Bush Tax cuts...

He pointed to the decision by Congress about whether to extend the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts as one crucial area. "If you let them lapse for the high-income earners, that could give you another $950 billion," he said.

You see Republicans... we do NOT live in a vacuum where we can do whatever we want... there IS a global test... one that we are now very painfully aware of....

Hopefully moving forward we will realize that there are consequences to our actions in the eyes of those who judge us and have the power to make that judgement a global and economic reality.

And for those who still believe it's Obamas policies... listen to what the S&P says..

Asked who was to blame, Chambers said, "This is a problem that's been a long time in the making -- well over this administration, the prior administration."

edit on 6-8-2011 by HunkaHunka because: (no reason given)

Good maybe it means commie scum like you won't be able to borrow anymore? S&P is making a political decision. Republicans want to do away with the FED(well some) and take a course of action that would permanently end all this debt. Thus making the S&P less relevant.

While Bigots like Obama borrow over a trillion dollars for "shovel ready job's" to rebuild America's infrastructure and turns around and blows it on cheap feminist hookers...err trying to win the female vote.

reply to post by HunkaHunka


what a misinformed post. who controls congress right now, who controls the presidency. but besides that you dont even mention spending all you talk about is increasing revenue (tax increases). come on give me some balance. or focus on reducing spending. its just basic economics!