At last, The "Watergate" Of 9/11 :

I can't tell if this is about 9/11 or some forum feud.
Maybe I just need more coffee...

nice, another good, well researched argument for the qustion: whats prooven fake on 9/11...=)

ty OP - stars 4 you =)

Hello, Labtop.

Achimspock is either a very poorly researched soul, or a disinformation artist deliberately making up disinfo and peddling it as "evidence" and "truth". After I thoroughly debunked Achimspock's "evidence" regarding the WTC over at the Loose Change forums last year, "he" has since stopped posting there.

As far as PFT, they are probably the least credible "organization" in the 9/11 truth movement. I don't see hardly anyone linking to them anymore for information like they used to back in the day. But that's mostly because of the "leader" of PFT, Rob Balsamo. It's either his way or the highway, no matter what. He's right, you're wrong.

CIT, on the other hand, has an aggressive, hostile, and unprofessional manner that automatically makes them lose credibility points, despite the fact that many of their theories are either ridiculous or have been proven bunk.


Leaving PFT is not a big loss. There are plenty of places in the truth movement and on the internet to post one's work. I would also take the time to post it at 9/11 Blogger, if I were you, and maybe at the Journal of 9/11 Studies.

Thanks for posting all of this information. Definitely alot to take in and look into.

reply to post by tezzajw

This will answer also the same question by Cassius666.

It is much more simple.
The FOIA released FDR is false because it depicts a plane departing from a wrong gate (D18). PERIOD.

Thus, either that plane did not exist at all, and the whole FDR is fake, or it was another plane, and the FDR is partly falsified, or the FDR was taken from the wreckage at the Pentagon, and altered afterwards when it came into possession of the real perpetraitors of 9/11.

But ONE THING IS CLEAR AS A CRYSTAL : the FDR of the plane depicted in that false FDR was for sure NOT the full real original FDR from Flight 77, the one that really impacted the Pentagon !!!

There is such a huge mountain of witness evidence for an impact, that it's quite unbelievable how real pilots can hold on to a lost case like a 9/11 Pentagon fly-over theory.

The real Flight 77 departed as usual from Dulles Gate D26 at 08:12:26 a.m. on 9/11, evidenced by all the American Airlines flight attendants and ground personnel interviewed by the FBI on 14 Sept 2001.
Those transcripts of those interviews I posted in my OP, you should really read all of them.

In Firefox, just right-click in the out of ATS range pictures of them in my OP, the too big screenshot pictures posted at P49/11Truth by their member onesliceshort.
EDIT : Then click the "Show Picture Info" tab, and a new window opens up with the readable screenshots in it.
And the picture dimensions. ENDEDIT.

Sorry for that, I went out of time with editing, my 4 hours were just up when I was trying to correct the last distorted ones, perhaps a techy admin will be so friendly to do it?
Btw, did the board picture-posting software-rules change again during my 4 months absence?
Its boundaries used to be 680 x 680, so you had to scale down or up your own gathered pictures.
Did it change to 640 x 640 perhaps?

There is some damn important information in those transcripts, like which other American Airlines planes left during the same relatively small 4 hrs time period from other nearby gates, 5 in total, included Flight 77.

Dana Turner arrived at 04:35 a.m. on 9/11 at her workplace in the D-Concourse and there were 4 airplanes at American Airlines gates, and the jetways (tubes) for all 4 flights were hooked up to each plane.
Flight 1361 at Gate D21,
Flight 975 at Gate D19,
Flight 771 at Gate D24 and
Flight 77 at Gate D26

Goodwin said that Gates D29, D30 and D32 were international departure gates used by British Midlands.

Goodwin refueled Flight 77 on 9/11 from 7:10 a.m. until 7:48 a.m. He then went to Gate D24 to refuel flight AA 573 and while he was doing that, Flight 77 pushed back from the gate and went on taxiing.

That corroborates the mentioned departure time by Jan Zelman of 08:12:26 a.m., and he most certainly described it as parked at Gate D26, the usual gate, since at the end of his first transcript page, he stated that he noted nothing unusual regarding Flight 77 on 9/11. And we can safely say that if it really departed from another, much further east, Gate D18, he would have noted that as unusual in his FBI interview.

The keen observer will notice that Dana Turner saw Flight 771 at Gate D24 around 04:35 a.m. and Goodwin saw another plane at Gate D24, Flight 573, between 7:10 and 7:48 a.m.
Is this an error, or did Flight 771 departed before 7:00 a.m. and did Flight 573 then hook on to that gate?
Quite probably so, since Goodwin was still refueling Flight 573 from 7:10 on, so it took some substantial more time before that flight departed.

Wow, looks like you did a lot of work on this! I didn't have time to read it all, I can't believe it takes all that to show the plane left from a different gate down the concourse? Maybe I'm mistaken, I'll have to read the rest later. Flagging it anyway, I already believe 9/11 was an inside job though(:

Originally posted by subject x
I can't tell if this is about 9/11 or some forum feud.
Maybe I just need more coffee...

It's about an enormous important find by Jan Zelman from the Czech Republic, a Psychology Major and also an IT Specialism Major at a Czech University, who came up first with his excellent plotting of all the lat/long data points found in the John Farmer/UnderTow and also the much bigger Warren Stutt decode of that false FDR.

False, because those plots gave evidence of a wrong departure Gate D18 shown in that thus false FDR, while everyone interviewed about 9/11 on Dulles Airport, states that Flight 77 departed at its usual time from its usual Gate D26, at the very western end of the Dulles D-Concourse.

And yes, of course there is a forum feud, when a forum owner behaves so erratic and illogical. You did not see my email and board messages exchange with Balsamo....
I gave him and his admin every possible civil chance to correct his error. He did not. And kept threatening me.
So I decided to give him a three months contemplating period, and myself that time off from my 9/11 "obsession". Obsession, since I understand much better than most, that when we are not able to stop these monsters, our children will live in real slavery again.

In Rome you were owned by your master, but he payed for your food, clothes and shelter in reasonable quarters. But no salary.
Most slave masters were treating their slaves quite well and decent, the historians from that period told us.

Think deep. Is there really that much difference with what you experience now?
No, just that you got a salary, but now you have to pay from that, your own food, clothes and reasonable quarters.
And what is left over from that salary at the end of the month?

YOU ARE STILL A SLAVE, you just did not realize it yet.....
They changed public attitude, by introducing "honest" payment for your labor.
However, privately, they are still your masters and act like it. They are still the same rotten scoundrels.


I try to post now two somewhat smaller lat/long corrected originals from Balsamo and from Jan Zelman, both their non-corrected pictures, with both my corrections in it.

Balsamo original, corrected by me, 800 px x 559 px :
files.abovetopsecret.com...



Jan Zelman original, lat/long shifted to runways and taxi lanes by me, 816px × 984px :
files.abovetopsecret.com...



Because these two drawings are the crux of the matter, it gives irrefutable evidence that that FOIA released FDR, by the NTSB, (the US National Transportation and Safety Board, a fully US government owned and controlled entity) is fabricated to fool us all.

What more evidence do you want?
My seismic WTC 1,2 and 7 evidence of enormous seismic impulses 3 seconds before the buildings came down?
My Shanksville FDR tampering evidence? That plane flew much lower than the NTSB showed us in their FDR.
The CIT North of CITGO eyewitnesses who all saw and described a totally different flight path than the officially released, south of CITGO version, with those 5 cut lamp poles in its path, and the impossible to cope with the internal Pentagon damage, NoC witnesses drawings?
My additionally found 6 new NoC witnesses?
The interviews by Domenick DiMaggio with those real Shanksville eyewitnesses, who saw quite different aerial behavior from the "downed" plane?
Look up my thread additions at the Shanksville forum at Pilots for 9/11 Truth. Use their Search, using solely my name. It's LABTop, not any other wrongly written expression of my online existence.

The big question now is, why did they feel the need and take the risk to try to fool us with a sloppy FDR?
What was recorded in the real FDR found in the Pentagon, that needed to be erased?

reply to post by LaBTop


Anything to reinforce the plane meme. Hoax maintenance is what it's called...keeping alleged truthers chasing their tails.

Controlled opposition always sounds so good.

Originally posted by LaBTop

The best chance ever for us world citizens would be that a whistle blower would come very carefully forward and admits and proves with hard evidence that he was ordered to falsify that data. That would be the death sentence for many top brass traitors.

The catch 22 is that if pleas such as this had a chance resulting in a whistle blower, then all potential whistle blowers would already be as dead and buried as the late Pharaohs' staff, who were entombed along with the corpse.


BTW, Good OP, S+F

Originally posted by Observer99
... Longest post ever??

Seriously OP, if you actually believe there's a case to be made in there, condense it. And while you're condensing, remember this -- if you leave a single loophole for a debunker, he will cite it as such and dismiss everything you wrote. It's been almost 10 years since 9/11 and the general public is still asleep. Only way to change that is to find more absolutely airtight evidence, which simply cannot be questioned. If you can't condense this into 1 or 2 pages of unquestionable fact, then it's useless.

I second that.

These 9/11 conspiracies are ridiculous nonsense.I have heard every excuse possibly that it could be.Remote bombs,remote passnger jets,Bush admin behind it all,Israel did it,Planes that realy took off somehow dissapeared and the people on them are somewhere hiding ,Bombs planted in all the buildings and timed just right.
I mean come on people the world is in enough trouble with chaos to keep going to the insanely bizarre ridiculous conspiracies.UFO conspiracy has truth to it and some others.Maybe the U.S.new an attack was coming of some sort and because they fight over politics so much nothing got done to stop it.

reply to post by LaBTop


How is this a 'Watergate'? The Watergate (as well as any new scandal that evokes it's name) is defined by being a fairly conclusive, and easy to understand by the public at large....something they can rally behind. The motives are always fairly clear in such a 'gate' scandal. It often involves someone or something getting 'caught in the act'.

What you have presented is an elaborate argument......And while it very well may be true, it lacks clear proof, as well as lacking a clear perpetrator of the crime. Was it the Government? Was it a rouge element of the C.I.A/F.B.I. ? Who knows...There is not even a clear cut link to the 9/11 hijacking....this could all be due to bad management of the airport screwing up the facts presented to the Government investigating 9/11. If this were presented in court I imagine there'd be a myriad of attempts at a rational explanation to these inconsistencies.

Honestly I'd say there is MUCH more conclusive evidence out there that 9/11 is the result of some sort of conspiracy. Evidence that would fit the bill of a 'Watergate' much better than the evidence presented here (though still even that evidence would fall a bit short of a 'gate' at this point IMHO)

I don't mean to offend you....but you calling this a 'Watergate' seems to have been done for no other reason than to sensationalize your own research.

reply to post by LaBTop


S&F for you. It will take me awhile to digest, but I get the gist, and I applaud you for the hard work of compiling all of this together. I've been screaming that 9/11 was an inside job since early 2002, but everyone thought I was crazy. this is just one more nail in the coffin. But, 9/11 truthers, any who rise to any prominence, should beware. look at what happened today: in afghnistan, we lost 30+ US spec. ops troops, some 25 of which were navy seals, specifically, the same seals who "got" bin laden. we all know they did no such thing, but, now the guys who could have blown the whistle are now dead. Jack Ruby all over again..

Nice post LabTop, it's obvious you put alot of effort into it. Although some of the pictures are a bit confusing to me as I had to quickly scan your post, and couldn't go over to Pilotsfor9/11 truths threads and see what the back and forth was about, but I think I understand.

I have one question for you and well this is what I'm wondering myself as well, because I've always though of P49/11Truth to be on the up and up.

Do you think the proposed "sloppy" work as your post implies by Balsamo was all done by him or someone to put out disinfo, or do you think it's more of the case of Balsamo haveing a theory for so long that he doesn't have the humility to say something like, "Wow ok my original diagrams were off- these new ones seem to be correct so Gate18 seems to be the more likely spot for the "fake plane" to have departed from than Gates 9 or 11"?

So in short my question is do you think he was out to spread disinfo from the get go, or has his pride in his original theory become too strong that he cannot admit he may have (well pretty much looks like now) he made a mistake? For some people admitting you are wrong or even might be wrong is nearly impossible.

I am sorry if the answer to my question was in your post, but as I said I only scanned over it, reading some parts thoroughly, others not so much.

Anyway thanks for taking the time to post this, and it's a shame for any Website Admin to ban you or labell you and others "trolls" just because you disagree with what they are saying. I mean if we can't debate these issues, how are we ever supposed to get to the truth of the matter?

Im from Washington DC and my friends Aunt was on Flight 77 and has not been heard of since. I do not believe that a plane hit the pentagon, but we have to keep focus on the people who are now "missing" or "dead". What did they do to the passengers on flight 77? Execute them? Gas them in an airplane. What happened to them?
Its #ed up.

Originally posted by Jobeycool
These 9/11 conspiracies are ridiculous nonsense.I have heard every excuse possibly that it could be.Remote bombs,remote passnger jets,Bush admin behind it all,Israel did it,Planes that realy took off somehow dissapeared and the people on them are somewhere hiding

,Bombs planted in all the buildings and timed just right.
I mean come on people the world is in enough trouble with chaos to keep going to the insanely bizarre ridiculous conspiracies.UFO conspiracy has truth to it and some others.Maybe the U.S.new an attack was coming of some sort and because they fight over politics so much nothing got done to stop it.

If you believe the OS of what happened on 9/11 then you have some serious serious problems..... I hope you keep enjoying all the spoon fed stories that are passed down to you by the MSM and the Gov, because trust me, they love people like you who dont question what they do or say....It makes their job that much easier...

And to the OP, very nice post S&F for you my friend, keep up the good work

reply to post by shaq76


Well, I thought I did exactly that, more than 50 minutes before you posted this one-liner.
Condensed my OP in one short post for people with attention disorder ( half of the television viewers in the USA) or very little time at hand (you should not interfere with complicated technical 9/11 threads in that case).
Did it cost you that much time to come up with a one-liner, and that's the reason you did not have the opportunity to read my last post above you? Did you notice it after you posted?

Well, it seems there are no posters and readers who do not understand the methods used by me to give evidence of a doctored, falsified or totally bogus "Flight 77" FDR.
No one asked to explain it in more detail, so, I'm glad I made it that clear.
And yes, to do exactly that, it needs a lot of my time and dedication.
Because I know every day new and fresh 9/11 doubters stream in, and they don't have the years long experience we have, we, the long time 9/11 ATS forum members, and I do not want to loose them to the ever awake and present, nagging opposition. But at least they keep us on our toes.


Let's proceed with my so childishly cut off thread at P49/11T.

Anybody not agreeing that this falsified FDR means that nearly all arguments used by pilots in their forums are suddenly based on the quicksand of too much trust in one or more false FDR's and thus also false radar data?
They throw around heaps of data, all extracted from that FALSE Flight 77 FDR. Like ridiculous airspeeds, they adhered to magically found additional 4 seconds on top of the full NTSB Flight 77 FDR decode, which is therefore also proved to be a certified mess.

This evidence of tampering with FDR's means that those pilots must rethink their online attitude, you must stop offering any data from that FDR as the hard truth. You are back at our and CIT's area of expertise, the interpretation of witness statements, photos and videos. And find the inconsistencies in all the material in our possession.

Of course you can also stop wondering, since the tampering by certified officials, with this FDR "evidence", can only mean that you are ready, now we must find better ways to kick this and other hard evidence of the US government involved in mass murder on their own citizens, through a majority of US and world citizens throats.


Anybody not understanding my viable flight path explanation?
Everybody has taken the time to read my 7 pages long thread I linked to, at P49/11T ? About impact or fly-over.

The one where I offered quite some new evidence to strengthen the CIT North of CITGO flightpath witness remarks, and added 6+ more NoC witnesses, who were from day one on branded as SoC witnesses, but after meticulously studying their real words, they turn out to be solid NoC witnesses. And most of them stood locked in traffic jam in the northwards leading POV-lanes, right in front of the Pentagon west wall, and very near or in front of the Helipad there. And the plane crossed over their heads or just in front of their cars.
The attack plane crossed Route 27 where all these witnesses were situated, just between the Helipad and the diesel generator standing behind the corner of the fence around the renovation contractors area.
Frank Probst, a manager of the renovation project, stood right in front of that fence's corner, on the walkway along the Route 27 safety rails. And ducked to the ground because he was afraid to get hit by the right jet engine.

I now go listening again to Roosevelt Roberts his two (also transcribed) phone and audio interviews, to show to pilots member onesliceshort that Roosevelt did went to the corner of the west wall, moving along the south wall to assist some wounded or shocked Pentagon personnel who fled out of the building after the impact and following explosions and fires spreading.
And he asked me in my brute cut-off thread if I had not read the "official" transcribes of the Ranke/Marquis phone interview, where these CIT guys base their use of Roosevelt Roberts as the only fly-over witness.

Well, that official transcribe was written by the same interviewers, Craig and Aldo, so, nothing official about that. I made my own transcribe, while listening many times to the audios, and there are quite some discrepancies between my version and the CIT version.
Nevertheless, I am again going to waste some more time on listening to Roosevelt Roberts, driving in his car and not really concentrated on his interviewers.

There, at the corner of the west wall with the south wall, Roosevelt saw the C-130 coming, as photographed from the bank of the Potomac River on the opposite side of the Pentagon river bank, and video taped from inside moving cars around the Pentagon roads.
As said before, Search ATS with " LaBTop C-130 " (only the words).

Craig Ranke and Aldo Marquis from CIT also made some trigonometric calculations a few years ago, while using those photos and videos, comparing them with Google Earth aerial maps from the Pentagon grounds, and came to the conclusion that the C-130 did not follow the exact flight path in front of the Pentagon as can be found in the RADES radar data, but kept much further away from the west wall as depicted in that radar data, if I remember that right. They also interviewed and emailed the pilot from that C-130, and he strengthened their conclusion, they said, if I remember that also right.

Let's concentrate to start with, on Roosevelt Roberts, for a while.
Or does anybody has a good reason to not waste time again on his quite chaotic CIT interview and CMH testimony?
I made quite some work of his audios, see for that my "impact or fly-over" thread at the P49/11T Debate forum page 2.

reply to post by LaBTop


´´Balsamo, the owner of P49/11T, says the fake flight departed at a northern gate, D9 or D11.

I say it did not, but definitely at the southern Gate D18, and this has serious consequences for every 9/11 researcher, thus also for the pilots at the P49/11T forums.
Balsamo treats it however as one of the many little and big achievements of his pilots, while it is the groundbreaking event we needed to corner all these FOIA released "official" flight data, this is the simple and understandable for anyone, evidence, that they are all false. ´´

so, basically you want to stretch out your discussions here on ATS now, because you werent fruitful at the other forum?
Could you pease summarize IN TWO or THREE sentences what its basically all about?

thanks
cheers

Originally posted by bhornbuckle75
reply to post by LaBTop

 

How is this a 'Watergate'? The Watergate (as well as any new scandal that evokes it's name) is defined by being a fairly conclusive, and easy to understand by the public at large....something they can rally behind. The motives are always fairly clear in such a 'gate' scandal. It often involves someone or something getting 'caught in the act'.

I think we got conclusive evidence of the NTSB been caught in the act of falsifying FDR data.
You seem to have no clue what the NTSB normally does. It will if needed, reconstruct a whole wrecked plane dived up from the oceans floor, to find the reason why it crashed. These guys and galls are the most meticulous operating professionals, in aeronautical circles, NORMALLY.

So, this quite easy to find wrong departure gate, is in my opinion a sure sign that someone with a longtime NTSB experience ( but abhorred by the knowledge that the government/military murdered 3000 citizens and military personnel for political and financial gain) did want to plant evidence of wrongdoing by the ones who ordered him and his colleagues to construct this false FDR.
A true NTSB professional would never make such a basic mistake, he would simply let the plane depart from the right Gate D26. And since he knew that so many uninformed people (like you) exist, he even added another clear WARNING marker, the wrong arrival Gate D15 also depicted in that false FDR's lat/long data streams, the evening before.
Flight 77 always departed, but also arrived back again, at only ONE gate, Gate D26 !
And all the D-Concourse personnel swore that Flight 77 departed as usual from the same as ever, Gate D26.
If you can't see the logical consequences of two such huge errors in a normally meticulous FDR transcript and decode, then you are a lost case as a 9/11 researcher.

But I know what you mean, it must be easily understandable for the masses. Well, if you show your neighbor my two pictures from my condensed post above, and let him read my OP after that, he will understand that the government handed clearly falsified evidence over to the public, while acting as if everything was solved now, (move on people, we have better things to do than looking for conspiracies on 9/11).

While seemingly unknowingly handing over themselves, the real evidence of them tampering on a huge scale with evidence regarding the biggest terror attack on American soil ever. Mass murder by others than Muslim terrorists. Why else should they have falsified that data?

Just ask yourself one simple thing : why has the NTSB not ever reacted on all the evidence already brought to their attention that there is something seriously wrong with their Flight 77 FDR decode.
It means that they have orders from far above, to this day on, to not react.
The NTSB is a US Government institution...

What you have presented is an elaborate argument......And while it very well may be true, it lacks clear proof, as well as lacking a clear perpetrator of the crime. Was it the Government? Was it a rouge element of the C.I.A/F.B.I. ? Who knows...There is not even a clear cut link to the 9/11 hijacking....this could all be due to bad management of the airport screwing up the facts presented to the Government investigating 9/11. If this were presented in court I imagine there'd be a myriad of attempts at a rational explanation to these inconsistencies.

It lacks clear proof???
Come on, are you serious??
The NTSB reluctantly, after several years of waiting, handed over the, as they said TRUE, recorded and by them then decoded data streams in the FDR of the Pentagon attack plane found at the Pentagon wreckage, as they said in the accompanying letters to the FOIA requests answers.
And with relatively simple methods, we can already proof that the start of the FDR flight data stream is already falsified.

Honestly I'd say there is MUCH more conclusive evidence out there that 9/11 is the result of some sort of conspiracy. Evidence that would fit the bill of a 'Watergate' much better than the evidence presented here (though still even that evidence would fall a bit short of a 'gate' at this point IMHO)

I don't mean to offend you....but you calling this a 'Watergate' seems to have been done for no other reason than to sensationalize your own research.

Honestly, I in turn say that your post in fact holds not one serious addition to this thread, while you could have starred by adding at least all that ""MUCH more conclusive evidence out there that 9/11 is the result of some sort of conspiracy. ""
I now ask you to show me your evidence.

I did already show mine, by mentioning my own further research, which you could have found in this forum threads, if you had a true interest in these other cases I laid before you.

reply to post by dragonseeker


Where can I find that news about them Navy Seals?

reply to post by LaBTop


You have put so much work into this post i am almost ashamed to comment, as it contains much of which I have never heard of, such Pilot's forums and suchlike. It is not for my lack of interest, as one interview in particular I saw on that day stuck in my mind that I saw on that day and has remained with me ever since....so I have had my own suspicions about that. It is just there is so much to take in, it will take days rather than hours. What can be done about this though? If this is concrete proof, who will act on it? Or is it destined to stay on ATS for ever more and be debated over.