At last, The "Watergate" Of 9/11 :

ProudBird, your reaction is a common problem that persons working for governments and huge firms consistently have.
They can not accept that they can lie; driven by, in their eyes, reasons which overthrow any common passion with our neighbors.
Watch my next posts aimed for your interest.

ProudBird, the real NoC impact would have been like this, when we take all NoC witnesses in account.
All the left side interior damage must have been created without a plane entering under that officially promoted track angle of 60.25 ° :



ProudBird, based on what evidence did you conclude that Penny Elgas her car was situated somewhere in that green band drawn by Ligon911 on Route 27, on both sides of the bridge over the last part of Columbia Pike leading to the South Parking?



EDIT : Ahh, I see Ligon did wipe or move his image after seeing it appear in this thread. (I have it saved, Ligon)


Btw, can you tell me where you found that picture? I suppose at PfT, since Ligon is a well known member there. He was the one who tried to place Roosevelt Roberts on a ramp just around the eastern corner of the south wall of the Pentagon, so he could not have seen Flight 77 coming north of the CITGO station towards the Pentagon. And I proved him wrong in my thread at PfT. He stood about 10 meters outside in the middle of the center loading dock ramp in front of the south wall.

You should know that Penny said she saw the plane cross Route 27 over the roofs of a few cars in front of her, in the eastern side HOV lane traffic jam. Thus, she in her car, must (according to Ligon and you) have stood at least south of the official diagonal crossing of the plane over that bridge and the first few downed light poles if you believe the official story.
So, Ligon's green band must be pulled back a lot south, ending in front of that huge traffic board spanning the whole Route 27. And starting just north of I-395.
Because the official story let the right wing tip of the plane scrape that first light pole just beside the western side of that traffic sign.
Would you, in that position, ever say you stood "almost in front of the Pentagon" ?
I would expect you to say you stood almost in front of the South Parking lot of the Pentagon.

In that same green band position, would you say you were, like Penny, "looking at the nose of an airplane coming STRAIGHT AT US from over the road (Columbia Pike) that runs perpendicular to the road I was on."" ?
You would probably say that you looked at the side of an airplane.

Furthermore, if you imagine Penny Elgas being in reality almost in front of the Pentagon, just after she has passed that other huge traffic board which only spans the two western, southbound lanes of Route 27, and you were thus in between that sign and the two trees in front of the Helipad; you will realize that that is a position where she indeed would see that plane Ligon drew inside his map, flying north of the CITGO station, coming straight at her and that she indeed was looking at its NOSE, because in that position the plane was coming indeed STRAIGHT at her.

And that position does also fit in with all the other positions of the other witnesses I brought up, like the ones who said that plane flew right over their cars.
And I posted photos of their cars near those two trees in front of the Helipad, and also a photo of one woman standing on the concrete along the HOV lanes, near these same two trees. Penny her car stood a few cars back of hers.
That African American woman said the plane flew straight over her car.
And we have a photo of her from the Alumni site of the University she studied at.
She is that same woman, her name is Christine Peterson.

See also my post #14 in my PfT thread regarding Penny Elgas :
pilotsfor911truth.org...

So, she stood beside lamp post nr 5 or 4, and saw a plane crossing, at a distance of a few cars further in front of her. And Christine Peterson, the panic-struck girl she later asked to come sit in her car, was right under that Route 27-crossing plane. And Christine's car stood still within about 30 meters/yards from the first of the two trees along the lawn in front of the Heliport.

Christine Peterson : "For all of my twenty-eight years living in the Washington, D.C. area, terrible traffic was a constant...and now I was officially late for work. I was at a complete stop on the road, in front of the Heliport at the Pentagon; what I had thought would be a shortcut was as slow as the other routes I had taken that morning."

And note again that sergeant Lagasse from the Pentagon Police Force bets his life on seeing a plane flying on a North of CITGO flightpath.

That is strange.
I see a white block with the text " This image has been moved or deleted", when I previewed before posting my text above, instead of Ligon's map with that Penny Elgas green position band in it.

So, it is still there I suppose. Well, I also have it saved. Better safe than sorry, ProudBird.

Ok, next and last one.

The telephone interview with Penny Elgas by Jeffrey Hill from his PumpItOut website :

Jeffrey Hill ( he seems not to be friendly with CIT ) from the pumpitout website (screen name "shure") posted a Pentagon witness list here, with some audio fragments from phone interviews with 9/11 witnesses.

This one is from him with Penny Elgas :
Phone call to Penny Elgas 06/05/09
www.pumpitout.com...

It's a very interesting one, especially when you hear what Penny says several times about the plane she saw "passing over the roof of the gas station" and " its wing tip seemed to me to skim over the roof of the gas station", and not one time he dares to ask her on what side of the gas station she saw that plane.
Especially seen in light of the vitriolic approach from this pumpitout website to the CIT website in all their threads in all its forums, it should have been the first question to come to mind for any truth seeking interviewer. He had several chances to ask specifics about the approach path, north or south of the CITGO gas station, but he tried cautiously only one time at the 01:05 mark :

And like, was it like coming in straight, like a cross, the, the, like was it really low, the, the......

Here he tries to find out if she saw the plane cross over Route 27 in a perpendicular 90° angle movement (a cross) instead of a 60.25° angle, but he does not persist and does not repeat the question when Penny said in return that she ""thought it was actually gonna hit it"" (the gas station).

And ProudBird, I offered an immense lot more than the one witness, Penny Elgas, you partly addressed.
You have to combine all their stated positions.

Then you can place the real positions of others which are not ironclad indicated by their own words, suddenly much better on the map. And you will see that most of the newspaper reported positions are far off from the real positions.

Start with Christine Peterson who very precisely notes where she stood in that Route 27 northbound HOV lane traffic jam. In front of the Heliport !!!

That's just in front of those two trees on the right side of Route 27, in front of the Heliport.
And Flight 77 passed right over her car, she said.

See also my PfT post #15 regarding Penny Elgas and Christine Peterson positions :
pilotsfor911truth.org...

Now work back from Christine's position in front of the Heliport, and all other witnesses who were only quoted as standing "X" meters or "X" cars behind the cars where the plane crossed over on Route 27.
Christine her car was one of these few cars where the plane crossed over their roof tops.
Just as Mason and Vin's cars, who both said the plane passed over them.


And Reheat, there in that PfT post #15 you can find the photo's you refused to see "in your dreams, Truster".

There seemed to have been a combined effort made in the newspapers and TV-stations editors rooms to misquote the first eyewitnesses, or to keep it so vague, that we could in fact place them all over Route 27.

Instead of their real positions.

reply to post by LaBTop


No!

....your reaction is a common problem that persons working for governments and huge firms consistently have.

I do not work for any government, nor have I ever.

It is insulting to my intelligence, and this "work" and obsession displayed in these posts is beyond extreme...and a little disturbing.

Attempting to pigeon-hole each and every conflicting eyewitness testimony, and at the same time disregarding the effects of perspective, human perception flaws, and the influence of stress on a person during trying events.

In addition to the above, deciding to put more "weight" into notoriously less-than-accurate eyewitnesses, and the mentioned flaws, than in the forensic evidence that is substantial.

There is such a thing, and displayed evidently here, of missing the forest by focusing on the limbs of the trees......and the pine cones on the ground.

Originally posted by ProudBird
reply to post by LaBTop

 

.....I am convinced that an airplane smashed head-on into the huge concrete second floor slab above the ground floor at the west wall of the Pentagon.

Whew. (Wiping brow).

At a near 90° angle.

Oh? Then this is complete rubbish? All of the people involved lied, and continue to lie? Little bit difficult to reconcile, wouldn't you think?:

THE PENTAGON BUILDING PERFORMANCE REPORT

(Graphics of note, pp 36, 37, 38 and 39)

ProudBird, whew also.
You have not meticulously read my PfT thread and followed all my links.
I told my readers that the Pentagon brass ordered the crime scene closed within the next days for any researchers until all wreckage inside and all rubble out- and inside was totally removed. Then a few months later (exact date in my thread) the boys from Purdue University and other eventual researchers were allowed to enter a totally cleaned interior. Not a screw to be found. Only the wrecked columns and remaining walls and floor slabs.
A crime scene that was CLEANSED of any possible plane debris and other tell-tale signs.
Signs of men made explosions perhaps removed?

Now look at the abundance of evidence of foul play ( a falsified FDR's last seconds) I laid before you and my other readers.
And read the rest of my PfT thread (where I got banned in the end because I touched some very sensitive toes there) in more detail and with more compassion, now that you know that foul play was at hand on 9/11.

Or are you still doubting my evidence and witness accounts?

See post #11 for some Pentagon Report details about Frank Probst, for instance :
pilotsfor911truth.org...

See also my PfT post #17 :
pilotsfor911truth.org...

for details about Vin Narayanan, USA Today reporter, who's car also stood in the HOV lane and he saw the plane as ""The jet roared over my head, clearing my car by about 25 feet.""
He thus stood somewhere near or beside Christine Peterson's car. Who also stated that the plane flew over her car. And that she stood jammed in front of the Heliport in her northbound HOV lane.

reply to post by LaBTop


This is all your own fantasy, sorry:

I told my readers that the Pentagon brass ordered the crime scene closed within the next days for any researchers until all wreckage inside and all rubble out- and inside was totally removed. Then a few months later (exact date in my thread) the boys from Purdue University and other eventual researchers were allowed to enter a totally cleaned interior.

And:

Now look at the abundance of evidence of foul play ( a falsified FDR's last seconds)....

Extraordinary claims, one and all...with absolutely no corroboration, other than one person's "opinion".

But, I'll bet the sheep over at PfT ate it up, with gusto. And, never bothered to question, nor verify either?

reply to post by ProudBird


""persons working for governments and huge firms""

Do you pilots also read your cockpit meters just as you read my texts? Cherry picking at will?
You worked for huge firms, called Airlines.

What is "notoriously wrong" with two police officer eyewitnesses, trained by the Pentagon to protect it, who both swear they saw a plane passing by them, at the north side of the gas station they were standing in front of, and inside in?

I posted a link to the CITGO security video taped on 9/11, somewhere in my PfT thread, where you can see with your own eyes where Sergeant Lagasse's police car stood at a filling pump, and how he walked to another SUV, returned after some time talking with the men inside, to start filling up his police cruiser's tank, with his face towards the price counter in the gas pump, which leaves him facing in a northwards direction.
He could not even see any possible plane flying in a south of CITGO flight path, it would be blocked by the whole gas station's pay-counter building and its northern canopy. And he would have to turn 180° to even have a short look at such a southern plane. He DID NOT DO THAT.
Then you see a sudden sun-reflection flash on the ceiling, and one second after that he ran around his car, jumped in and left the station in a great hurry, and all customers and personnel inside started after that flash on the ceiling running to the eastern entrance door to look in the direction of the Pentagon's west wall, .

And his police colleague in the parking lot to the right of him, on the other side of the street, also swears to have seen the plane flying north of the CITGO canopy.

Why are intelligent people like you, as any pilot should be, acting on this online forum as completely unable to address logical problems? How can any such an eyewitness, video taped while swearing he saw the plane north of the northern canopy, be swept aside by stubborn popular online reasoning based on no real reasons at all?

The only reason us readers can feel in our guts is, that they don't want to even think about the severe consequences of the statements of these two Pentagon police officers.

And regarding the sudden flash on the inside of the northern canopy ceiling above those pumps there, of the CITGO.
Do you really think that it could come from a reflection of sunlight on the body of a south of CITGO's southern canopy flying airplane?
Or that it could come from the impact flash on the west wall?
The sudden flash ran from the north to the south inside the canopy ceiling, towards the camera fixed in the corner of the southwestern end of that ceiling, just beside the top of the counter windows. It would have ran from east to west if it came from the impact explosion.

I think you had to study meteorology, so let's both think it through thoroughly.
It had to reflect from something shiny on the ground north of CITCO, to be able to reflect on that ceiling.
The sun stood low in the southern part of the sky at its 09:30 position, on the far right side of the CITGO.
There is a thread by me somewhere in the catacombs here, with a lot more details.
Search for "LaBTop flash CITGO".

Here are twelve photos from my CITCO Video Flash album.

One of them :

Originally posted by LaBTop

You have not meticulously read my PfT thread and followed all my links.
I told my readers that the Pentagon brass ordered the crime scene closed within the next days for any researchers until all wreckage inside and all rubble out- and inside was totally removed. Then a few months later (exact date in my thread) the boys from Purdue University and other eventual researchers were allowed to enter a totally cleaned interior. Not a screw to be found. Only the wrecked columns and remaining walls and floor slabs.
A crime scene that was CLEANSED of any possible plane debris and other tell-tale signs.
Signs of men made explosions perhaps removed?

Now look at the abundance of evidence of foul play ( a falsified FDR's last seconds) I laid before you and my other readers.
And read the rest of my PfT thread (where I got banned in the end because I touched some very sensitive toes there) in more detail and with more compassion, now that you know that foul play was at hand on 9/11.

I totaly agree with Proud Bird that you are totally consumed with this and it is very disturbing. Extremely so.

The above quote reveals why I am washing my hands of this crap with you once and for all.. You are beyond delusional, but I don't have a good word to describe it.

You think the big bad Gubmint went to all that trouble knocking down light poles trimming trees and spearing a cab so that an aircraft flying on a totally different path that hit the Pentagon would be covered up. They then removed all evidence of "men made explosions" in addition to aircraft wreckage from inside the building so that the team of engineers conducting the Building Performance Report were fooled. Then they persuaded the NTSB to falsify the FDR readout to convince everyone that the obvious damage path was correct instead of the actual path you think is supported by your witnesses. This is your "inside job"!

There is a term for this kind of thinking, but I'm not prepared to deal with it. A Psychiatrist is better suited for this "inside job". Bye

ASCE Pentagon damage Report post #37 :
pilotsfor911truth.org...

Post #38 is a very long list with highlighted parts of witness testimonies that indicate an overall feeling that the witnesses were describing a different flight path than the official story :
pilotsfor911truth.org...

Terry Morin in between the 4th and 5th Annex Wings:
Elapsed time from hearing the initial noise to when I saw the impact flash was between 12 and 15 seconds.

He saw the plane coming in his field of view, one or two seconds after hearing its rumble sound.
Simple calculations : how fast flew the plane when Morin (btw also Sean Boger) is right on with his time elapsed estimation of about 11 to 14, or 10 to 13 seconds after seeing the plane?
Just measure the distance in meters or yards on a Google area map. Slower than you thought, ain't it?

Do also read the remarks of Vin Narayanan.
He pulled alongside the Pentagon. Then saw the plane flying right at him, when he looked to his left side. ""The jet roared over my head, clearing my car by about 25 feet. The tail of the plane clipped the overhanging exit sign above me as it headed straight at the Pentagon.""
Look up that exit sign's position....the one showing the exit to the northern parking lot and to I-110.

Ahh, whatever! You know what boys?
You are right, it has no sense anymore in these grave times to squabble around with obnoxious types like you about a 10 years old massacre.
Much bigger and more cruel massacres are lurking and glooming around the corner.
I'm going to prepare me for the worst that is coming.

Have a nice time.
Especially ProudBird who made in one month 2/3 of the amount of posts that I made in nearly seven years. He has a bright future in front of him on this board.

To the rest of you, and to my old friends :
Let it go, concentrate on the real important problems that come thundering down the steep hillsides of pure greed, coming to get you and destroy your quiet life.

Destroy greed, if you get the chance, before it's time to die.

It's pay-back time.

Have no mercy.

Originally posted by LaBTop
However, "tumetuestumefaisdubien" did not dare to implement the obvious first full align after the short distance gate pull-out and the following 7 fast aligns during stops while taxiing, in his diagram.

Question - If a full align and 7 other fast aligns were performed on this aircraft at the gate and during taxi, how come the data is not aligned until after departure?

Lat/Long raw data plot


In-Flight Alignment after departure


Answer - Because the IRS was never Fully aligned on the ground as is required by American Airlines, nor was it ever fast aligned. It aligned in flight which is impossible for an American Airlines 757 and a violation of American Airlines standard operating procedures. This means the data did not come from an American Airlines 757.

Thereby your whole theory that the aircraft was fast aligned on the ground is bogus, concluding the aircraft in which this data came from did not push from Gate D26 at Dulles. I'm in agreement with Reheat here with respect to your observations.

Originally posted by Shephardmix

Question - If a full align and 7 other fast aligns were performed on this aircraft at the gate and during taxi, how come the data is not aligned until after departure?

Don't try to mislead others. There is a difference between alignment and updates. You are attempting to capitalize on the lack of knowledge of the typical truther....

Originally posted by Shephardmix
Answer - Because the IRS was never Fully aligned on the ground as is required by American Airlines, nor was it ever fast aligned. It aligned in flight which is impossible for an American Airlines 757 and a violation of American Airlines standard operating procedures. This means the data did not come from an American Airlines 757.

Again, this is misleading. You have no idea if the system was aligned or not. Simply because it was inaccurate until it was receiving updates DOES NOT mean it wasn't aligned on the ground. That is simply your opinion with no basis in fact. It was inaccurate on ALL FLIGHTS ON THE GROUND for which the data has been examined. Roughly the same amount of inaccuracy after several previous flights.

Originally posted by Shephardmix
Thereby your whole theory that the aircraft was fast aligned on the ground is bogus, concluding the aircraft in which this data came from did not push from Gate D26 at Dulles. I'm in agreement with Reheat here with respect to your observations.

You know there was no alignment....how? There is not an IRU or INS in existence that can in-flight align as rapidly as this one did (according to you). It takes a long time, sometimes hours. Therefore it was aligned on the ground, but was not accurate until several minutes after take-off after it was receiving updates from VOR/DME.

In addition, whether you agree with me on some issues is irrelevant.as I in no way agree with the main thesis of your argument. I believe the motto here is to "deny ignorance" not promote it.....

Originally posted by Reheat
Don't try to mislead others. There is a difference between alignment and updates. You are attempting to capitalize on the lack of knowledge of the typical truther....

If standard operating procedure for American Airlines requires the input of Present Gate Position and full alignment prior to pushback from the gate how can the data be more than 3000 feet off prior to push?

According to Capt Ralph Kolstad and numerous other pilots not affiliated with Pilots For 911 Truth this cannot happen if the data were from an American Airlines 757.

E. When ALIGN is selected, power is applied to the IRU's and the IRU's normally progress through an alignment period of approximately 10 minutes before the navigational mode is armed. When the switches are maintained in ALIGN, however, the IRU's remain in the align mode. Normal alignment requires the entry of present position into the IRU's.


Source - digilander.libero.it...


"There is a big difference between updating a position.. ok..., which is not a problem at all, and Re-Aligning an IRS in flight which is not possible :=."




"If the Present Position is incorrect when the INS is initialized, it will NOT "re-align" itself! It should be shut down and re-initialized with the correct Present Position."



"No IRS realign in flight, ... alignement realign requires the platform to be stable. no acceleration, no movement, sometimes the movement created by loading container is enough to screw up the align process, on a modern Airliner."



"When you start in the morning, you tell it where it is. Either by telling it the gate position or by giving it the GPS position."

Can you please show us how "AAL77" got a "Present Position" 3000 feet away from the Gate Position Lat/Long?

reply to post by Shephardmix


Caught you. (sigh)

Answer - Because the IRS was never Fully aligned on the ground as is required by American Airlines, nor was it ever fast aligned. It aligned in flight....

Utter, unadulterated rubbish.

Really....you didn't run this drivel past your friend "Ralph Kolstad"?

It is truly hilarious to see the leader of so-called "PilotsFor9/11Truth" hoist by his own petard, once again.


Let me ask.....(rhetorical, since I expect this will be dodged)....what instruments work when the IRUs are not aligned? Or, what doesn't work? (**)

And, why is this extremely important, on the matter of a Boeing 757 departing for a revenue passenger flight?

Really...only the gullible, and those ignorant of how real airliners function would fall for any of this ridiculousness.


(**)Oh, I will save you the trouble of not answering the question. This is a photo from airliners.net that shows a Boeing 757 cockpit. The condition here is airplane on the ground, and Parking Brake set.

I know there is power, because of lights.....and EICAS screens. The Park Brake light is on too. The power is likely from the APU, since its switch is in the "Run" position. Cannot see if External Power is also plugged in, or not.

HOWEVER....the IRUs are not aligned.

OK. that's far enough. Now....how do I know this from a mere photograph? And, why is this a condition that no pilot wold ever take off in??



Good luck with your homework assignment.

Can you please tell us how and why the lat/long is off by more than 3000 feet from the Gate position when American Airlines requires input of the Present Gate Position and a full align prior to every flight?

According to real pilots who can be verified, this is not possible and the unit needs to be shut down and re-initialized with the Present Gate Position. Please show us why and how in detail. Thanks!

Originally posted by Shephardmix
Can you please tell us how and why the lat/long is off by more than 3000 feet from the Gate position when American Airlines requires input of the Present Gate Position and a full align prior to every flight?

According to real pilots who can be verified, this is not possible and the unit needs to be shut down and re-initialized with the Present Gate Position. Please show us why and how in detail. Thanks!

Well, Mr. "Airline Operations Expert" I see you've avoided ProudBird's question, so I have some additional ones that should be easier for you.

You've been asked several times and have continued to avoid an answer. What are the Boeing specifications regarding the accuracy required for the IRS? You keep insisting that the Gate lat/long coordinates were not entered because the system showed approximately 3000' in error and you use this as evidence that the system was not aligned. You know this because your sycophants say so (according to you). What does Boeing or American Airlines specify as the tolerance? Did the crew know the amount of error? What are the cockpit indications of alignment? Thanks

Click here to learn more about this warning.

reply to post by Shephardmix


The same way some of the pilots in my unit end up with faulty INU data. They fat finger it and enter a number wrong. It happens more often than one would think....and it's not normally a big problem....especially when it's less than a mile.

reply to post by vip (Gertech0596

The same way some of the pilots in my unit end up with faulty INU data.

You and I both know, also, the format for entering Lat/Long. It is only to one decimal place. (GPS-equipped updating, not installed on American 77, is more accurate of course....to more decimal points, but that is invisible to the crew).

One degree of Latitude is usually the same approximation of one Nautical mile...or, 6,076 feet. So, each 1/10th decimal fraction of a degree (when discussing latitude) is about 600 feet. So....if the actual co-ordinates that were used by the crew were "off" by one or two tenths (which is no biggie, since the IRUs will radio-update after take-off) you easily have some "error" already....more can occur after the alignment is completed, but the airplane is still parked at the gate. They can "drift" a bit, over time. Because, there is not, as yet, any updating happening (non-GPS).

There is absolutely no need for accurate INU/IRS position information on the ground, while taxiing. In those days, there were very few RNAV-only departure procedures (RNAV relies solely on the IRS position calculations).

Normal departure procedures use ground-based Navaids for reference...and common practice was to do a quick accuracy verification shortly after take-off, to ensure the IRS positions was updating properly, and reasonably close to what the ground based sources showed. Once they were verified, then the exclusive use of the RNAV capabilities was authorized.

This was a more tedious chore in the early days of the IRS units, when the Boeing 737-300 was introduced. The more modern "glass cockpit" EHSI (Electronic Horizontal Situation Indicator) makes it more of a 'snap', quick and easy....more information presented convenient to hand, on one display.