Do you have a relationship with the creator of the universe?

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by Hydroman

You are so funny and so insincere,

Why do you say that? I could say the same about you. Doesn't make it true though, does it?

Originally posted by AQuestion
Firstly, my faith did not come from my NDE and I never said that it did. That is you playing tricks on yourself. To compare my NDE to a drug induced state is merely an attempt to discredit what I know, when it is not why I believe.

That's fair enough. I just wanted to make sure.

Originally posted by IAMIAM

No my friend, I try to avoid thinking at all. That only reinforces delusions.

Does that mean that you know you are a god, or the god?

Originally posted by AQuestion
I wrote that to another, not you.

So? It was talking about me.

Originally posted by AQuestion
Yes, you are less than truthful. I will answer your question if you ask it and you have. You know your bible and you are intelligent enough, you are also deceitful and attempt to trick people into showing their inconsistencies. I don't mind, but you troll those you know are still learning, those who do not know their bible.

I want to see the inconsistencies, yes. I want to see what people believe and why. That's why I ask questions. I've said that many times. I suppose that makes me a cowarding troll. Sticks and stones.....

Originally posted by AQuestion
You play word games with them. IAMIAM is about the most peaceful believer on ATS, he speaks in simple straighforward words and does not attack, yet, you seem to be unable to understand him and blame him, the problem is that you do understand him and don't like the truth.

I don't like the truth? What is the truth and I'll let you know if I like it or not. What is true to you is not true to others.

Originally posted by AQuestion
Many of us believers have told you to come to your own conclusions and you insist that we must prove something to you, why? I have told you that I do not chase down atheists to prove anything, not my job. I live my life as I do and ask that others care about one another, you tried to tell me that if I knew my bible then I would be too busy hating gays and adulterers to have any time for love. Please do your game where you get into semantics, it is amusing.

I am coming to my own conclusions. I enjoy seeing what others believe also. It is interesting to me. I'm sorry if it upsets you that I ask a lot of questions about what people believe, and why they believe those things, or where they get their information from.

Originally posted by AQuestion
In the end, you know that you don't have all the answers. In the end you know that there is more; but, you want proof before you commit, your are afraid of mistakes.

Yes, I agree that I do not have all the answers. That is easy to admit.

Originally posted by AQuestion
You messed up once and are forever afraid of being wrong again, I understand this. When my wife cheated on me, I called my brother, he said that there are some lessons that you wish you never had to learn. He also told me that after being cheated on himself, he never fully opened his heart again. When he told me that, I knew that I could not truly be with another till I was able to completely open my heart again.

I'm glad you were able to open your heart again.

Originally posted by AQuestion
You are free to laugh at me, I don't really care. I decided that I would heal until I could truly take the same risk again, until I could open my heart to it's limits. That is how I treat love. God is the same, we can never know him fully, we will always make mistakes in our understanding as we are limited in our understanding; but, don't be afraid to know what you can. Be well.

No laughing going on here.

reply to post by Hydroman


Dear Hydroman,

Nobody has perfect knowledge. Science claims it never attains the perfect knowledge so why should religion be any different? Yet we form theories and we act on them, same with spirituality. I do not claim to know God perfectly and I also don't claim to know science perfectly; but, I act on what I believe that is called faith. Faith is more than belief, it means to act based on belief, to rely on what you believe and live according to it.

I believe people should take a position and not just forever sit on the fence. There is a line in the bible that you probably know, it says you are neither hot nor cold so I shall spit you out. If you wish to test a theory it requires action, faith is tested by living the life, not the life of the fundamentalists that you knew, the life of service to others. And not because you think it will please God and get you salvation or because you want to be viewed as a "good" person, live it because it is right that we love one another and care for one another and the material things of this life are meaningless compared to the suffering of our brothers and sisters.

Be honest and truthful in your life because lies and deceit warp our character. Be understanding of others rather than self righteous because they matter. If you already do these things for the reasons I mentioned then don't worry about salvation. I told you that I believe atheists and people of all beliefs can be saved if they have the heart and mind of Christ.

Originally posted by ren1999
In summary, the universe and all of nature is God and God does not care if we are innocent or evil, God will kill us if we fail to be smart or by random chance we are in the wrong place at the wrong time. God will even kill us if we were born with a weakness or have family and friends who harm us.

I just like to call it "life" and "nature".

Originally posted by ren1999
But a part of God that does care about us consists of spirits of good people that have died before us and remain to try to help us. They suggest things to us. They fight bitter vengeful spirits who aim to hurt us. But these beings can not save us. Not all of them have poltergeist powers to physically help us.

Spirits fight spirits? How does this happen? How can something that is intangible fight something that is intangible? And if they are already dead, they can't hurt each other, what's the point of fighting?

Originally posted by ren1999
Ultimately we ourselves are also a part of this part of God who can either help or hurt each other.
WE ARE GOD.

We are god? Does this mean you have all knowledge?

Originally posted by AQuestion
Nobody has perfect knowledge. Science claims it never attains the perfect knowledge so why should religion be any different?

Religion, imo, would be different because of the title of this thread. You claim to have a personal relationship with a being who DOES have all knowledge. If the relationship is personal, you should be able to access any thing you need to know from this being, well at least I would think you could since this relationship is personal.

I know that science does not have all knowledge.

Originally posted by AQuestion
Yet we form theories and we act on them, same with spirituality. I do not claim to know God perfectly and I also don't claim to know science perfectly; but, I act on what I believe that is called faith. Faith is more than belief, it means to act based on belief, to rely on what you believe and live according to it.

I've said this before, having faith does not make anything true. To me, faith is good for nothing. People all over the world have faith in their gods and their beliefs. They can't all be true, but they can all be wrong.

Originally posted by AQuestion
I believe people should take a position and not just forever sit on the fence. There is a line in the bible that you probably know, it says you are neither hot nor cold so I shall spit you out.

I would rather sit on the fence than believe something that isn't true. So, I suppose you are right in some cases that I am afraid of being wrong.

I never understood that verse about being hot or cold. Does he want you to be hot or cold? Are both just as good to be?

Originally posted by AQuestion
If you wish to test a theory it requires action, faith is tested by living the life, not the life of the fundamentalists that you knew, the life of service to others.

Do you accuse them of not living a life of service to others? I'd have to say that many of them did live that kind of life. Especially my parents. But maybe our ideas of living a life of service to others are different.

Originally posted by AQuestion
And not because you think it will please God and get you salvation or because you want to be viewed as a "good" person, live it because it is right that we love one another and care for one another and the material things of this life are meaningless compared to the suffering of our brothers and sisters.

I agree.

Originally posted by AQuestion
Be honest and truthful in your life because lies and deceit warp our character. Be understanding of others rather than self righteous because they matter. If you already do these things for the reasons I mentioned then don't worry about salvation. I told you that I believe atheists and people of all beliefs can be saved if they have the heart and mind of Christ.

I like your beliefs.

reply to post by AQuestion



You are someone I KNOW I can learn a lot from....thanks for sharing in such an open way. Honestly the words in the post of yours I am referencing in this one is so full of truth it makes me deeply consider my life, actions and way of life. I need time to account for me in this earthly one.

Thanks you for opening that door again...I think it's always good to review yourself.

reply to post by Hydroman


Dear Hydroman,

I question your sincerity because of how this thread began. I believe you like to bait people and try and make them look silly. I see it all the time on these threads. I hear you say that you would do anything to know God except allow him to set the terms. I believe you were taught false doctrine, tried to live it and found out that it was false; but, you blame the bible because you believe that the false doctrine you were taught is the doctrine of the bible.

I always feel sorry for people that were taught false doctrine. There have always been false teachers and there always will be, in fact I believe in the end times it says we will have an abundance of them. You will, I hope, notice that I have never said accept anything blindly, that is not the place for faith. I have said live a life of faith, one of actions based on your beliefs whatever they may be.

I have not told you the specifics of my NDE because frankly, I don't feel that I have a trusting relationship with you. I don't usually discuss spirituality with the people around me unless they choose to bring it up. When people ask questions of ATS, I tell them what I think because they have asked for answers to anyone on ATS. I don't believe that anybody can save someone else all we can do is be a resource. By the way, I hate it when someone asks me if I know if I have been saved and will generally tell them how un-Christian they are.

I believe the bible is correct when talking about how people flock to preachers because they like to get their ears tickled, they like to hear what they want to hear, to reaffirm their biases. I have sat across from young gay men who tell me that they believe in God and believe that God hates them and I have to tell them what I told you, there is only one unpardonable sin and it isn't homosexuality.

When I would see these false teachers on television (and I haven't watched television in a few years) it made me sick to my stomach. They talk about how if you have enough faith you will be rich and never sick, yeah. How come all the apostles were not rich and all suffered if this is true. Perhaps we do not understand what God meant by rich or healthy.

I see people who are looking for shortcuts in everything. They want to know the spiritual and take drugs or yoga or go through elaborate ceremonies in order to know God. We are told not to deal with spirits, I believe we can only reach up so high and then God has to reach down. The fundamentalists have very firm beliefs; but, no love and the liberals believe anything which is to believe nothing. Most of the atheists I meet are just bitter and angry, they have more in common with the fundamentalists than the liberals within the church. I believe we should always question therefore you could say I have agnostic tendencies even after my NDE because I have to question that also; but, I take a side.

I do not see you searching for answers, I see you trying to disprove what others believe and that is fine; but, say so up front or you are being insincere. Not an attack, what I have observed.

Originally posted by AQuestion
I question your sincerity because of how this thread began. I believe you like to bait people and try and make them look silly. I see it all the time on these threads. I hear you say that you would do anything to know God except allow him to set the terms. I believe you were taught false doctrine, tried to live it and found out that it was false; but, you blame the bible because you believe that the false doctrine you were taught is the doctrine of the bible.

You have every right to question my motives, though I have explained many times what my motives are.

Originally posted by AQuestion
I always feel sorry for people that were taught false doctrine. There have always been false teachers and there always will be, in fact I believe in the end times it says we will have an abundance of them. You will, I hope, notice that I have never said accept anything blindly, that is not the place for faith. I have said live a life of faith, one of actions based on your beliefs whatever they may be.

You still don't see the dilemma. You think you have the true doctrine, I mean you have to believe that because you believe I have been taught false doctrine. Every one who has a belief believes that theirs is the true belief. If they didn't they wouldn't believe it. So, just as you say that my teachings were false, others will say that your teachings are false....and I'm talking about those who believe in the same god as you. So, how is one able to know which teachings are true? Imo, it comes down to personal interpretation.

Originally posted by AQuestion
I have not told you the specifics of my NDE because frankly, I don't feel that I have a trusting relationship with you.

No problems here.

Originally posted by AQuestion
I believe the bible is correct when talking about how people flock to preachers because they like to get their ears tickled, they like to hear what they want to hear, to reaffirm their biases.

I believe that is true as well.

Originally posted by AQuestion
I have sat across from young gay men who tell me that they believe in God and believe that God hates them and I have to tell them what I told you, there is only one unpardonable sin and it isn't homosexuality.

What I was taught is that homosexuals can be saved, but once saved they should not continue in that sin. The same with anyone else who has addictions or other sins.

Originally posted by AQuestion
When I would see these false teachers on television (and I haven't watched television in a few years) it made me sick to my stomach. They talk about how if you have enough faith you will be rich and never sick, yeah. How come all the apostles were not rich and all suffered if this is true.

When I was a believer, I felt the same as you. I still feel that way now as an atheist.

Originally posted by AQuestion
I believe we should always question therefore you could say I have agnostic tendencies even after my NDE because I have to question that also; but, I take a side.

If I understand you correctly, and I probably don't, it seems to me that you believe that one should believe in something, no matter if they are wrong or not. Just pick something and believe it. That makes no sense to me. If that's not what you meant, can you explain what you mean?

Originally posted by AQuestion
I do not see you searching for answers, I see you trying to disprove what others believe and that is fine; but, say so up front or you are being insincere. Not an attack, what I have observed.

Again, for probably the 10th time in this thread...please read carefully what I say next....I like to see what people believe and why they believe it!!! FFS!!!!!!! That's why I ask questions about what they believe!!!! I want to know what they believe and why!!!!! Was I clear enough about it that time? Did you read what I just wrote? Just making sure. OMGGGGGG. In my opinion, and I would wager that it is not your opinion, I think that asking those questions is part of gaining knowledge. And maybe....just maybe....other people will think about what they believe and if they should believe it after all. I should do the same, and I do. I like to make people think, and I like people to make me think...just as you have done for me.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by IAMIAM

No my friend, I try to avoid thinking at all. That only reinforces delusions.

Does that mean that you know you are a god, or the god?

I do not know anything my friend. You tell me, who am I?

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by AQuestion
I hear you say that you would do anything to know God except allow him to set the terms.

I'm going to try to explain this one more time and if you don't get it after that, I don't know what else to do. This thread is about a personal relationship with the creator of the universe. It is my opinion that a relationship such as a personal one should involve the terms of both parties, not the terms of one party only. If this being doesn't care about my terms, why would I want a relationship with it? I used the husband and wife analogy because it is said that we are the bride of this god. As the husband, you wouldn't want your wife to just accept your terms to the relationship only would you?

When only one party of the relationship sets the terms, that more like a dictatorship, or mafia boss. Either way, it sucks. That's not a personal relationship, imo.

Originally posted by IAMIAM
I do not know anything my friend. You tell me, who am I?

I've got no clue.

Anyways, I noticed in your signature it says that Jesus died for us because we were unwilling to die for him. What do you mean by that? According to the bible, many of his followers died because of their belief in him. I suppose that that has happened all through out history.

But, if we did die for him, then he wouldn't have had to died for us? That's what your sig seems to suggest. Could you please explain?

reply to post by Hydroman


Dear Hydroman,

I apologize that I don't know how to cut and paste the quotes and I have been told previously not to quote whole things to often by one of the moderators.

You said, "I've said this before, having faith does not make anything true. To me, faith is good for nothing. People all over the world have faith in their gods and their beliefs. They can't all be true, but they can all be wrong." I agree just because you believe something does not make it true. You answer is to believe nothing. Okay, believe nothing. I have consistently said that it is okay.

You say that all religions cannot be right. I disagree to a point. Nobody has perfect knowledge; but, we all have some knowledge. No religion will last long if it doesn't have some truth. The search is for as much truth as we can understand, you want to know the ultimate answer without taking the steps.

You mentioned that these fundamentalists you knew lived a life of service, okay and you were taught that we are to do it in order to obtain salvation earlier. In my response I said that it should be done for the right reasons and explained what those reasons were.

Originally posted by AQuestion
I agree just because you believe something does not make it true. You answer is to believe nothing. Okay, believe nothing. I have consistently said that it is okay.

There is no need to apologize for not knowing how to use certain features on this forum. It just takes time to learn. But there is a need to apologize when you insert things into my mouth that I didn't say. You haven't apologized one time for doing that yet. Where did I say that my answer was to believe nothing, unless you mean belief in gods. I believe that one should believe in what the evidence suggests is true. That way you have a reason to believe it, until that truth is presented as not true due to new evidence.

Originally posted by AQuestion
You say that all religions cannot be right. I disagree to a point. Nobody has perfect knowledge; but, we all have some knowledge. No religion will last long if it doesn't have some truth. The search is for as much truth as we can understand, you want to know the ultimate answer without taking the steps.

You believe I'm not taking steps by asking questions here and elsewhere, and trying to figure what people believe and why? Well, then what should I do, in your opinion?

Originally posted by AQuestion
You mentioned that these fundamentalists you knew lived a life of service, okay and you were taught that we are to do it in order to obtain salvation earlier. In my response I said that it should be done for the right reasons and explained what those reasons were.

Lol, again putting words in my mouth. I never said that your works save you. Never. I did believe however that if you are saved, you would want to do good works. Again, those works don't save you. I did my works because I believed I was saved and wanted to do what was right, not what was wrong. I didn't believe as the JW's believe, that works is what saves you.

reply to post by Hydroman


Dear Hydroman,

You say, "You still don't see the dilemma. You think you have the true doctrine," but you miss the numerous times where I have said that nobody knows perfectly. I don't think I know the absolute truth. You worry too much about consensus, that proves nothing. We can all agree to be wrong, so what. Live by the truth you know is what I am talking about.

You said, "What I was taught is that homosexuals can be saved, but once saved they should not continue in that sin. The same with anyone else who has addictions or other sins." I can believe that you were taught that and I also believe it is wrong. Paul said he was the greatest sinner of all. It also says that there is none good but God. You have to reconcile those with what you were taught and don't forget that there is only one unpardonable sin.

You said, "If I understand you correctly, and I probably don't, it seems to me that you believe that one should believe in something, no matter if they are wrong or not. Just pick something and believe it. That makes no sense to me. If that's not what you meant, can you explain what you mean?" Yes you managed to misunderstand what I said and meant. Because we don't know the absolute truth does not mean we just sit in the corner and wait until we do, we make assumptions (that is science), we live it and adjust our beliefs as we have more information and experience.

As for the questions you ask, I have heard them from every fundamentalist and they still don't hold water. We agree that they are wrong, you just blame the bible, I blame the preachers who just want to get butts in the seats.

reply to post by Hydroman


Dear Hydroman,

You said, "When only one party of the relationship sets the terms, that more like a dictatorship, or mafia boss. Either way, it sucks. That's not a personal relationship, imo." You have it all confused, both parties set the terms and if they cannot come to agreement then there is no relationship. You seek it on your terms, God seeks it on his and you politely agree to disagree, live with it and be happy, you don't like the God that he is and you don't have to. We are free to decide that we never want to know him, he allows for that, we then get what we want, separation from him, that is the unpardonable sin, not because it is evil or harmful; but, because we choose it, we choose to be our own God. This is not a condemnation, it is simply getting what we ask for.

reply to post by Hydroman


Dear Hydroman,

Well, I guess we have pretty much beat these questions into the ground if we are merely repeating ourselves without any additional understanding. If you have some new and original attack on the faith let me know. I have told you what I believe and why, I do not seek agreement.

Originally posted by AQuestion
You say, "You still don't see the dilemma. You think you have the true doctrine," but you miss the numerous times where I have said that nobody knows perfectly. I don't think I know the absolute truth.

But I don't miss the times where you said I was taught false doctrine. You admit that you don't have perfect knowledge, but you are able to say someone else has false doctrine. How can you say that as you admit you don't know perfectly? For all you know in that case is that you have the false doctrine. Do you see what I'm saying?

Originally posted by AQuestion
You worry too much about consensus, that proves nothing. We can all agree to be wrong, so what. Live by the truth you know is what I am talking about.

If I worried about consensus, I would not be an atheist. Everyone I know is christian. If you don't know what the truth is, how do you live by it?

Originally posted by AQuestion
You said, "What I was taught is that homosexuals can be saved, but once saved they should not continue in that sin. The same with anyone else who has addictions or other sins." I can believe that you were taught that and I also believe it is wrong. Paul said he was the greatest sinner of all. It also says that there is none good but God. You have to reconcile those with what you were taught and don't forget that there is only one unpardonable sin.

Ok then, you can be saved then continue to live in your sin? So pretty much there's no difference between christians and sinners except christians have the heart of Jesus? Is that what you're saying or do I have you wrong on that?

Originally posted by AQuestion
Yes you managed to misunderstand what I said and meant. Because we don't know the absolute truth does not mean we just sit in the corner and wait until we do, we make assumptions (that is science), we live it and adjust our beliefs as we have more information and experience.

That's what science does.

But, it is possible that you can adjust your beliefs tomorrow from what you believe today? Your beliefs can evolve as you learn more about your god?

What I was getting at was you mentioned that god says we should be hot or cold, not lukewarm. We shouldn't sit on the fence, as you say. We should believe in something instead of remaining neutral. What do you do if you don't know what to believe?

Originally posted by AQuestion
You have it all confused, both parties set the terms and if they cannot come to agreement then there is no relationship.

Now you're making sense. That's the first time you said that my terms had anything to do with it.

Originally posted by AQuestion
You seek it on your terms, God seeks it on his and you politely agree to disagree, live with it and be happy, you don't like the God that he is and you don't have to.

Agreed.

Originally posted by AQuestion
We are free to decide that we never want to know him, he allows for that, we then get what we want, separation from him, that is the unpardonable sin, not because it is evil or harmful; but, because we choose it, we choose to be our own God. This is not a condemnation, it is simply getting what we ask for.

I'm not asking to be a god. I'm just asking for truth, and if this god is real and wants to get to know me, and loves me unconditionally, I'm fine with that.

Originally posted by AQuestion
Well, I guess we have pretty much beat these questions into the ground if we are merely repeating ourselves without any additional understanding. If you have some new and original attack on the faith let me know. I have told you what I believe and why, I do not seek agreement.

Fair enough. Thanks for your time!