Do you have a relationship with the creator of the universe?

Originally posted by AQuestion
I don't need to know nor do I care, I was asking you to pick what it was for you. You said, "Why do you need to know what it would take to convince me of his existence? If this god is real, he would know exactly what it would take. I may not even know myself what it would take, but this god would. Don't you think so?". I do think he knows what you need and when you are ready he will do what he does. I have been saying that you just don't hear it because you are of a dual mind.

A dual mind? I'm not a split-brained patient if that's what you're saying. My cerebral cortex is still in tact.

Originally posted by AQuestion
You say you will accept any terms and then say that he should not have any. You say you don't know what the terms should be and that he would and then you refuse to let him pick the terms. Pick, choose, whatever, I don't care, do whatever you believe is right.

I wish you could quote me without twisting my words around. I never said that this god shouldn't have any terms. Show me where I said that, and when you don't find it, apologize to me. I said that both parties of the relationship should have terms. Not just one side. I also said "how will I know his terms if he never says anything to me?" Then I used an analogy between you and your wife. Your relationship isn't based only on YOUR terms is it? If so, I feel sorry for her.

A relationship isn't based on the terms of one individual. It isn't a relationship if that's the case.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by AQuestion
Yep, that is what I believe, that people who do not know the gospel can still be saved just like Enoch was. It comes from the Old Testament, it says that none will be able to claim that they did know God because he is in everything even the stars.

That would be wonderful if that is true and it would make much more sense. At what point would they become saved? For example, at what point would a god-fearing muslim become saved, one who was raised in traditional islam and never heard the gospel? This means that the belief in Jesus and what he did isn't even necessary, which is great, because many people have never even heard of it.

Originally posted by AQuestion
I also believe that it says that the gospel would be preached to the ends of the world and that once it had been, there would be a great falling away from the church. I believe that also and I believe and can see that it has begun, it has been taught throughout the world and people are now leaving the church. Bout time for many of them as they were never real believers and needed to be removed.

It would be nicer though, if this god let them know that they weren't real believers instead of letting them go to perish. Instead of removing, teach them what is right? But, I can understand their confusion as there are many different beliefs in the world, and none have any concrete evidence to back up their claims.

You ask at what point a God fearing Muslim would be saved. It is not about fearing God, that is the start of knowledge, not what he wants from us. God does not want worship, that is just a reaction that some have so he accepts it. It is really so simple, why do you feel such a need to complicate with dogma that you don't believe? Look, I learned true forgiveness by having children, they did terrible things; but, I love them and know that they hadn't learned their lessons yet. Do I like to see my kids make stupid mistakes, noooo. But they do and I still love them and wait for them to learn from their mistakes.

The bible says don't do this or that, yeah, I warned my kids too and they didn't listen either. They did however learn that I forgave them for all their screw ups. I even forgave the ex for cheating on me. Did she commit a sin, yep. Did it hurt me, yep. Did I forgive her, yep. Was what she did right, nope. That is the heart of Jesus and I had to learn it. I didn't forgive anyone for anything and I was self-righteous just like you; but, I got over it and then I knew the Lord, after I got over it.

You ask at what point people are saved, they always saved, you need to understand salvation is the right to choose for oneself and make mistakes and still God will love you. The real question is at what point do we accept salvation, forgiveness and brotherhood with the one who created us and didn't screw up, a heavy burden on him. Perfection is hard.

You say that it would be nice if God let people know that they are believing wrong things, you don't seem to like free will. Free will is what allows us to decide who we want to be. God doesn't want trained seals or puppets, that is the whole purpose behind free will. He wants to interact with people have come to their own conclusions as he has. Satan rewards bad behaviour, God challenges those who believe in him even more, no cookie.

I have to go to the store, I will check your comments when I get back. It sure is nice to have the day off.

Originally posted by AQuestion
You ask at what point a God fearing Muslim would be saved. It is not about fearing God, that is the start of knowledge, not what he wants from us. God does not want worship, that is just a reaction that some have so he accepts it.

John 4:23 "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks." This shows that he does seek worshipers. But I'm probably reading it wrong again, right?

My point about the muslim is that he believes in and loves god. He seeks him 5 times a day, etc. So, at what point does this muslim become saved?

Originally posted by AQuestion

It is really so simple, why do you feel such a need to complicate with dogma that you don't believe?

I don't believe it because it doesn't make sense to me. Maybe because it is complicated? I don't know.

Originally posted by AQuestion
Look, I learned true forgiveness by having children, they did terrible things; but, I love them and know that they hadn't learned their lessons yet. Do I like to see my kids make stupid mistakes, noooo. But they do and I still love them and wait for them to learn from their mistakes.

I did too. I have four kids. Sometimes, one of them tells me that she hates me. I tell her that I love her. After that, she gets all lovey dovey with me again.

Originally posted by AQuestion
The bible says don't do this or that, yeah, I warned my kids too and they didn't listen either. They did however learn that I forgave them for all their screw ups. I even forgave the ex for cheating on me. Did she commit a sin, yep. Did it hurt me, yep. Did I forgive her, yep. Was what she did right, nope. That is the heart of Jesus and I had to learn it. I didn't forgive anyone for anything and I was self-righteous just like you; but, I got over it and then I knew the Lord, after I got over it.

That is awesome that you can forgive people. What does having the heart of Jesus have to do with it? I can forgive my kids telling me they hate me, and my wife for getting drunk and dancing with men at a bar when she was out with friends. As an atheist, does that mean I have the heart of Jesus?

Originally posted by AQuestion
You ask at what point people are saved, they always saved, you need to understand salvation is the right to choose for oneself and make mistakes and still God will love you. The real question is at what point do we accept salvation, forgiveness and brotherhood with the one who created us and didn't screw up, a heavy burden on him. Perfection is hard.

We are always saved, we just have to accept it? That doesn't make any sense to me. Or, is that not what you meant?

Originally posted by AQuestion
You say that it would be nice if God let people know that they are believing wrong things, you don't seem to like free will. Free will is what allows us to decide who we want to be. God doesn't want trained seals or puppets, that is the whole purpose behind free will. He wants to interact with people have come to their own conclusions as he has. Satan rewards bad behaviour, God challenges those who believe in him even more, no cookie.

No, I'm fine with free will. What I like is knowledge. If I'm doing something wrong, is it going against my free will for someone to tell me that I'm doing wrong?

How does Satan reward people again? I've never heard that before.

Don't spend too much at the store.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by AQuestion
You ask at what point a God fearing Muslim would be saved. It is not about fearing God, that is the start of knowledge, not what he wants from us. God does not want worship, that is just a reaction that some have so he accepts it.

John 4:23 "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks." This shows that he does seek worshipers. But I'm probably reading it wrong again, right?

My point about the muslim is that he believes in and loves god. He seeks him 5 times a day, etc. So, at what point does this muslim become saved?

Originally posted by AQuestion

It is really so simple, why do you feel such a need to complicate with dogma that you don't believe?

I don't believe it because it doesn't make sense to me. Maybe because it is complicated? I don't know.

Originally posted by AQuestion
Look, I learned true forgiveness by having children, they did terrible things; but, I love them and know that they hadn't learned their lessons yet. Do I like to see my kids make stupid mistakes, noooo. But they do and I still love them and wait for them to learn from their mistakes.

I did too. I have four kids. Sometimes, one of them tells me that she hates me. I tell her that I love her. After that, she gets all lovey dovey with me again.

Originally posted by AQuestion
The bible says don't do this or that, yeah, I warned my kids too and they didn't listen either. They did however learn that I forgave them for all their screw ups. I even forgave the ex for cheating on me. Did she commit a sin, yep. Did it hurt me, yep. Did I forgive her, yep. Was what she did right, nope. That is the heart of Jesus and I had to learn it. I didn't forgive anyone for anything and I was self-righteous just like you; but, I got over it and then I knew the Lord, after I got over it.

That is awesome that you can forgive people. What does having the heart of Jesus have to do with it? I can forgive my kids telling me they hate me, and my wife for getting drunk and dancing with men at a bar when she was out with friends. As an atheist, does that mean I have the heart of Jesus?

Originally posted by AQuestion
You ask at what point people are saved, they always saved, you need to understand salvation is the right to choose for oneself and make mistakes and still God will love you. The real question is at what point do we accept salvation, forgiveness and brotherhood with the one who created us and didn't screw up, a heavy burden on him. Perfection is hard.

We are always saved, we just have to accept it? That doesn't make any sense to me. Or, is that not what you meant?

Originally posted by AQuestion
You say that it would be nice if God let people know that they are believing wrong things, you don't seem to like free will. Free will is what allows us to decide who we want to be. God doesn't want trained seals or puppets, that is the whole purpose behind free will. He wants to interact with people have come to their own conclusions as he has. Satan rewards bad behaviour, God challenges those who believe in him even more, no cookie.

No, I'm fine with free will. What I like is knowledge. If I'm doing something wrong, is it going against my free will for someone to tell me that I'm doing wrong?

How does Satan reward people again? I've never heard that before.

Don't spend too much at the store.

edit on 5-8-2011 by Hydroman because: (no reason given)

Dear Hydroman,

You truly are a chapter and verse type of person, a fundamentalist.

I will try and respond in order. Yes, it says that those were the worshippers that God sought. It didn't say he wanted us to be worshippers, it said they already were. Who were the worshippers that he did not seek? You then mention that the Muslims believe and worship God and ask at what time they get saved. It is not about believing and worshipping, many will come to him and he will say that he never knew them. I told you before your idea of how one is saved is wrong, it is not about believing in his name or physical body having lived on earth or worshipping. It is about having the heart of Jesus, a heart that truly loves his brother as himself.

You mention that you forgive people also and ask what that has to do with having the heart of Jesus, it is simple, a heart of forgiveness and love is the heart of Jesus and yes, I think atheists can be saved, I believe they can have the same heart.

I said we are always saved and that we just have to accept it and that makes no sense to you. I can bet it doesn't because you don't understand what salvation is. I explained it already in a previous post. Salvation is always attainable by everyone, we choose when we accept it. Salvation is the right to be with God after this life, if someone chooses not to be with him, to reject him then they can be apart from him, they get the answer they want.

How does Satan reward people. Think about what Satan offered Jesus, think about what he has, he has dominion over this world and it's governments. He rewards with the things of this earth, the worldly things that people crave. You ask why God doesn't tell you when you are wrong, it is because you are free and should come to your own conclusions. If he tells you the answer and you accept it to make him happy then you have given up your free will. You have to be in agreement with him to know him and that starts by you coming to your own conclusion that happens to match his, agreement is how the relationship begins. You do not agree with him because what you think he stands for is not what he stands for.

The store is about a block away and I did not need to be gone long.

I wish you would have seen my post back on page 14. I had hoped it would have prompted you to ask some questions.

If he's real and wants a relationship with you - why doesn't he speak to you?

Now you know good and well, that the Bible is made up of many different stories that pertain to many different people and most have had the type of relationship that you seek. You can have that. You are just as important as any one of them and you are just as loved.

It took me 40 plus years to hear the audible voice of God and when he spoke, he only said one word - his name, but considering what YHVH means, that in itself is a statement.

Everyone can have a deep spiritual relationship with him, but few don't really pay enough attention to actually follow the directions.

reply to post by Hydroman


Dear Hydroman,

As we were talking an e-mail came in from a cousin of mine, I will give you the link.

Youtube - Friar Barron comments on marriage and relationships

I am not a Catholic and my cousin is investigating it; but, I think the Friar described what I am talking about. He is discussing love as having a common purpose not infatuation. We know God when we have a common purpose by choice rather than force or an attempt to please.

reply to post by Hydroman


Dear Hydroman,

I have to apologize to you, when I say I don't care what you believe it is out of frustration. Believe what you want is how I think. You called yourself an atheist so I just figure be an atheist, believe there is no God and get over it. You are not an atheist, you are agnostic if you asking the questions. My first response is to say, pick one; but, that is unfair, I was an agnostic for over a decade. Take your time and ask whatever you want. Do try and remember that I don't believe in chasing down non-believers to "save them", I am much more interested in calling Christians to task for spreading false doctrine and hate.

I am glad you are still asking questions, it means you haven't closed off your mind to what is all around us and the fact that we do matter, we only matter in a universe where we are eternal. That is tough one to get.

Originally posted by AQuestion
You truly are a chapter and verse type of person, a fundamentalist.

I don't disagree with you on that. Should that hurt my feelings?

Originally posted by AQuestion
I will try and respond in order. Yes, it says that those were the worshippers that God sought. It didn't say he wanted us to be worshippers, it said they already were. Who were the worshippers that he did not seek?

Well, since he seeks worshipers who do so in spirit and in truth, I would say that he does not seek worshipers who do not worship him in spirit and in truth.

Originally posted by AQuestion
You then mention that the Muslims believe and worship God and ask at what time they get saved. It is not about believing and worshipping, many will come to him and he will say that he never knew them. I told you before your idea of how one is saved is wrong, it is not about believing in his name or physical body having lived on earth or worshipping. It is about having the heart of Jesus, a heart that truly loves his brother as himself.

Do you deny John 3:16? "For god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."?? Do you deny that basic verse that everyone knows? I suppose it should say, "For god so loved the world that everyone who had the heart of Jesus shall not perish but have everlasting life." I wonder if everyone else reading this is as confused as I am about what you're saying.

Again, if a muslim has "the heart of Jesus" as you say, and loves his brother as himself truly, he is saved? Right? Even if he's never heard the gospel, right? I'm just asking. You keep skirting around that, or so it seems.

Originally posted by AQuestion
You mention that you forgive people also and ask what that has to do with having the heart of Jesus, it is simple, a heart of forgiveness and love is the heart of Jesus and yes, I think atheists can be saved, I believe they can have the same heart.

So, are you saying that even if they don't acknowledge anything Jesus has done for them, or that maybe he even existed, when they die they can be saved, as long as they show they have the heart of Jesus? I've never heard this before, but I like it. It makes more sense.

Originally posted by AQuestion
I said we are always saved and that we just have to accept it and that makes no sense to you. I can bet it doesn't because you don't understand what salvation is. I explained it already in a previous post. Salvation is always attainable by everyone, we choose when we accept it. Salvation is the right to be with God after this life, if someone chooses not to be with him, to reject him then they can be apart from him, they get the answer they want.

Again, I suppose you are correct that I don't know what salvation is. But you didn't answer this, if someone never knew they had a choice to accept salvation, or didn't even know they needed it, such as those who aren't raised christian, how do they know to choose? Help me understand salvation.

Originally posted by AQuestion
How does Satan reward people. Think about what Satan offered Jesus, think about what he has, he has dominion over this world and it's governments. He rewards with the things of this earth, the worldly things that people crave.

Does he do it without them knowing? Or are they full aware that satan is rewarding them? I

Originally posted by AQuestion
You ask why God doesn't tell you when you are wrong, it is because you are free and should come to your own conclusions. If he tells you the answer and you accept it to make him happy then you have given up your free will.

How so? I still have to choose whether or not I want to follow him. Did the disciples give up free will by knowing Jesus personally, and by doing as he asked? Why would it be different for me?

Originally posted by AQuestion
You have to be in agreement with him to know him and that starts by you coming to your own conclusion that happens to match his, agreement is how the relationship begins. You do not agree with him because what you think he stands for is not what he stands for.

Does your wife have to agree with your terms? Sure. Do you have to agree to hers? Sure. It's both sides, again. Not one side only.

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct

Everyone can have a deep spiritual relationship with him, but few don't really pay enough attention to actually follow the directions.

Probably because it seems as if there are too many rules you have to follow in order to have this relationship. If you don't get them just right, it's too bad. That is silly.

reply to post by Hydroman


Dear Hydroman,

You have informed me that I don't understand basic english and have told me that the bible says terrible things and that you like my beliefs more but don't believe they are biblical. So why ask me anything, why waste your time. Why are you trying to preach false doctrine to me when you don't even believe it? You make absolutely no sense. Do you want me to accept their false doctrine or do you want me to deny my beliefs which lead me to help others, what is you point?

Originally posted by AQuestion
. We know God when we have a common purpose by choice rather than force or an attempt to please.

Do you think I am forcing a relationship? If so, how? All I want to know is if this god is real, and if so, how can I get to know him if he doesn't actually speak to me?

Originally posted by AQuestion
I have to apologize to you, when I say I don't care what you believe it is out of frustration.

I accept your apology.

Originally posted by AQuestion
Believe what you want is how I think. You called yourself an atheist so I just figure be an atheist, believe there is no God and get over it. You are not an atheist, you are agnostic if you asking the questions.

Again, I think one should consider things with an open mind. Leave doors open to possibilities. I don't believe bigfoot exists, but it could end up being true. I don't believe gods exist, I believe that ancient people did not understand what they were seeing and attributed it to gods, which was later embellished. But, it may all be true, just as it is written. I am an agnostic atheist. Ever heard of that?

Originally posted by AQuestion
I am glad you are still asking questions, it means you haven't closed off your mind to what is all around us and the fact that we do matter, we only matter in a universe where we are eternal. That is tough one to get.

I think it's good to ask questions. That's how you find answers. Believe me, I've asked these questions to many believers, and I get different answers, because there are different beliefs. I like to see what people think and believe, and why.

Originally posted by AQuestion
You have informed me that I don't understand basic english and have told me that the bible says terrible things and that you like my beliefs more but don't believe they are biblical. So why ask me anything, why waste your time. Why are you trying to preach false doctrine to me when you don't even believe it? You make absolutely no sense. Do you want me to accept their false doctrine or do you want me to deny my beliefs which lead me to help others, what is you point?

You have also asked me if I understand english. Want me to show you the quote?

Anyways, as I replied in my previous post, I like to see what people believe and why they believe them. That's why I ask you questions. What you see in the bible is not what I see in some places. That is very interesting to me. But, that happens to EVERYONE. Many people get different understandings when they read the bible. You say it is because they don't read it correctly, and they say the same about you. How do I know who is correct?

Your beliefs allow you to help others, and other people's beliefs allow them to help others. So? I can help others without any of those beliefs. Why do I need them?

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by AQuestion
. We know God when we have a common purpose by choice rather than force or an attempt to please.

Do you think I am forcing a relationship? If so, how? All I want to know is if this god is real, and if so, how can I get to know him if he doesn't actually speak to me?

Dear Hydroman,

You will not like my answer. Decide who you want to be, ignore the bible, decide for yourself what you believe is right and wrong and then you will know him because there will be areas in which you agree, that is why I gave you the link to the video, so you would understand. Don't look for agreement, decide what you believe is right, exercise your free will, don't seek to give it up to one who has proven himself to be God. You have it all backwards that is why you do not understand my answers.

reply to post by Hydroman


Dear Hydroman,

You say, "You beliefs allow you to help others, and other people's beliefs allow them to help others. So? I can help others without any of those beliefs. Why do I need them?" What is wrong with you, I told you that atheists, Muslims and any other beliefs could help others without believing as I do, how do you misunderstand this? A heart of love for others is a heart of love for others, that is a heart of Jesus. You say it is complicated; but, to me it is not. Why do you seek to change my beliefs when I only seek to help others?

Originally posted by AQuestion

You will not like my answer.

I like all your answers, because I like to see what you believe. I may not agree with you on many things though.

Originally posted by AQuestion
Decide who you want to be, ignore the bible, decide for yourself what you believe is right and wrong and then you will know him because there will be areas in which you agree, that is why I gave you the link to the video, so you would understand. Don't look for agreement, decide what you believe is right, exercise your free will, don't seek to give it up to one who has proven himself to be God. You have it all backwards that is why you do not understand my answers.

I probably do have it backwards. How do you know you don't have it backwards though?

Originally posted by AQuestion
You say, "You beliefs allow you to help others, and other people's beliefs allow them to help others. So? I can help others without any of those beliefs. Why do I need them?" What is wrong with you

Several things are wrong with me, would you like a list?

Originally posted by AQuestion
I told you that atheists, Muslims and any other beliefs could help others without believing as I do, how do you misunderstand this? A heart of love for others is a heart of love for others, that is a heart of Jesus. You say it is complicated; but, to me it is not. Why do you seek to change my beliefs when I only seek to help others?

I just wanted to make sure you agree with me on that. We are in agreement on something and that is good. That is progress.

reply to post by Hydroman


Dear Hydroman,

You said, "I probably do have it backwards. How do you know you don't have it backwards though? ". Because if I do have it backwards, it doesn't matter because it leads me to do what is best for everyone and not be selfish. If I am wrong about God, guess what I wouldn't change my actions one bit. What would I do go out whoring around and stealing because all we have is the immeidate pleasures, that is waste of life. I have nothing to lose by believing in God, what did you lose by believing in him?

reply to post by Hydroman


Dear Hydroman,

You said, "I just wanted to make sure you agree with me on that. We are in agreement on something and that is good. That is progress." Progress to what, I am just saying what I believe, I am not seeking agreement, I don't need you to agree with me and frankly don't care if you do. I told you, I am not trying to convince of anything, believe what you want.

Originally posted by AQuestion
You said, "I probably do have it backwards. How do you know you don't have it backwards though? ". Because if I do have it backwards, it doesn't matter because it leads me to do what is best for everyone and not be selfish. If I am wrong about God, guess what I wouldn't change my actions one bit.

That's great!

Originally posted by AQuestion
What would I do go out whoring around and stealing because all we have is the immeidate pleasures, that is waste of life. I have nothing to lose by believing in God, what did you lose by believing in him?

I don't believe in god and I don't go out whoring around and stealing. I don't need a god in order to keep me from doing wrong. Do you?

If there is no god, I lose nothing. I would have lived a wonderful life and then it is over. I accept that. If your god is real, I will be in trouble, maybe, depends on what you believe. In your belief, I may still be ok, which is cool. Now, if Allah is god, you and I both will be in trouble.

I don't want to believe in something that isn't true. I'm not going the way of Pascal's Wager and just believe in this god, just in case he is real. That's not true belief.

I want to know what is true and what isn't.