The paradox of knowledge

reply to post by smithjustinb


There is no real purpose though, is there? What purpose does the picture of the Mona Lisa have?
Life is art.

reply to post by smithjustinb


I am interested in what you suggest, you say 'stop thinking', is this something that you have achieved?
If so how did you do it?

reply to post by Itisnowagain


Art has no purpose?

Hmmrph, coulda fooled me.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


You got me!! What purpose does art have in your opinion?

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy

Without novelty there can be no creativity, and absent creativity, there is no humor, and absent those two things There is no life, and no possibility for any authenticity ie: trapped in an inauthentic normalcy.

Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy
When we see something; for instance our spouse or child or friend, do we actually see them or do we merely evoke memories associated with these sights?

Technically, you are not speaking of knowledge here but of perception.

"Knowledge" can occur on many different levels: Knowing, Looking, Emotion, Effort, Thinking, Symbols. Every level below the highest one of true knowing involves some system. So you are right to question whether any real learning or data inflow is taking place when one uses the lower systems.

They become more mechanical, automatic, and mindless as you go down the scale.

However, the higher ways of knowing are usually present to some extent, just at a very low awareness level.

So when you see someone, you might think that all you're really doing is taking that new impression of the person, matching it to a prior mental picture, making certain assumptions, and then reacting. But we don't experience close relationships this way because that's not all that is going on. Even if we are not so aware of it, it is very likely that an emotional, direct energetic, and purely spiritual connection are all being made when you see someone you know. So all those levels of knowing are operational to some degree.

... I wonder if our desire to give meaning to all that we experience inhibits us from actually seeing, smelling, hearing, or feeling the nature of reality as it truly is.

Here you are speaking of "knowledge" at the level of symbols. This is indeed a very restricted form of knowingness. Some people who are not in too good a state are not aware of any higher level of knowing than this one. Life must be very hard for them! Unfortunately, some of them are scientists and spend much of their time trying to convince the rest of us that no other forms of knowing exist! They have simply become unaware of them.

You don't have to make the same mistake! My awareness at the upper levels is terrible, but knowing that they are operating anyway gives me some flexibility that I wouldn't otherwise feel.

Some have said that the physical universe itself contains all anyone would ever need to know about it. So in theory you could have no memories and no preconceptions of anything whatsoever, and if you could simply be in good enough communication with your environment, it would tell you everything you needed to know in present time without any other mental machinery involved. Everyone uses this to some small extent. If you are an extreme athlete or similar you are probably more familiar with the experience of getting all your data from present time. But it's a bit of a trick! For most of us, a certain amount of mental machinery is still needed.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


We can't help but put meaning into everything and if we can't see meaning we make up meaning. People will stand in front of a painting or sculpture and say 'what does it mean?' All the while they are looking for meaning they do not see the complete picture that appears before them. They walk away scratching their heads confused.
Art should be viewed as it is. If we could view life the same way, as it is, instead of trying to fix it, it would appear as art. Life is treated as though it is a puzzle that needs to be solved and that makes life hard.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

You got me!! What purpose does art have in your opinion?

edit on 4-8-2011 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

I think the purpose of art is to involve in a co-creative, participatory, mutuality of communication. To be art it must contain, imbedded within itself the capacity to move us, to evoke a response, whereby the 'meaning' of the communication, resides in both the artist's intention to move us or provoke a potential response, and the response itself. In other words it's not art if it' simply hanging on a wall without anyone to see it, only then does it become art. Art then is about mutual sharing while leaving entirely up for grabs the precise nature of the evocative experience.. Applying the art analogy to encompass our experience of life itself and what we then have is something perhaps greater than mere mutuality of communication, something much more immediate, and intimate, the best word for it that I"ve found, a biblical word no less (but don't let thatt disourage you) - is koinonia, which means, among other things, intimate participation or involvement.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


But there is a meaning making paradox that the OP may have picked up on and if it is then any such meaning assigned or value judgement is subject to reason within the framework some sort of dialectic (paradox being a mutually exclusive proposition and thus a two sided truth pulling in opposite dirctions) expressing itself through communication or what the ancient philosophers called rhetoric. Therefore in theory every search for truth leads to the gateway of paradox, and yet the contemplation and understanding of the paradox itself immediately throws the mind's eye into a new paradigm or wordlview, or an end to the lower order of meaning as interpretation, to that of true gnosis, which is real knowledge of more real reality via felt experience, or the qualia of consciousness.

This is why i call myself an "OmegaPoint Logotherapist" or the faculty of helping others generate new meaning from new paradigms that arise at the end of what was once taken to be meaningful but that in the light of gnosis or real knowledge, can only be henceforth regarded as a meaningless absurdity and thus, all the material needed to maintaining our good natured humor, at the expense of our own prior ignorance!

All good meanings, which we cannot help to assign, if taken to their logical and rational and paradoxical conclusion, operate on us in a multifaceted way like those Chinese Handcuffs and lead inexorably to a joke capable of restoring us to sanity while inviting us, if we are open minded enough, and imaginative enough, upon a path of self discovery, and therefore to true knowledge and authentic, creative and humorous life.

Life as we took it to be is like Koan. You're right to say that it caanot be 'solved' but that doesn't mean it cannot be known intimately, and with a smile, and not with "thinking about" but through the gnosis of felt experience, as an "ah ha" epiphany, which the artist, or therapist, can only lead a person to, but never give it, from outside of the other.

Anf so if they learn something, they will also laugh out loud!

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Life is art. It moves us. A painter who sits down with the intention to move us is unlikely to be moved to paint.
Intention is the killer of inspiration. In-spiration is the spirit in us, it is that that moves us.
A painting that is viewed moves us if we can see it without intention.
Intention is purpose.

Have a look at this if you haven't seen it before;
youtu.be...
It moves me everytime, i feel it as a carress.
Feel life, we are feeling beings.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Exactly, nothing has meaning until we make the meaning up.

reply to post by IntegratedInstigator


I can empathize with you, I went through a similar thing as you (relationship wise). And you know something, to face the reality of what you described was one of the hardest things I have ever done. But this level of honesty shows something really special about your character. Very few people have the ability to completely own up to the reality of why something as powerful as an intimate relationship with someone you had a deep connection with failed. But by doing so, hopefully you have freed yourself from a great burden of falling into the same trap over and over again, as so many people do. After going through what you described, I realized that I no longer wanted to be with someone just because they loved me, or because they were deeply attached to me, or respected me, or made me feel comfortable. Instead, I realized I would rather be in a relationship with someone because they love themselves, respect themselves, and feel comfortable with themselves. Thus we can coexist peacefully under these principles without expecting anything from each other.

As far as, when do memories start, I would say within the first few months of life, probably more "subconsciously" than "consciously", but ultimately this is something I am unsure of and will have to ponder upon it more before I reply to you.

Peace.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Life is art. It moves us. A painter who sits down with the intention to move us is unlikely to be moved to paint.
Intention is the killer of inspiration. In-spiration is the spirit in us, it is that that moves us.
A painting that is viewed moves us if we can see it without intention.
Intention is purpose.

Have a look at this if you haven't seen it before;
youtu.be...
It moves me everytime, i feel it as a carress.
Feel life, we are feeling beings.

This is great. It reminds me of something I recently read by Alan Watts, where he stated something to the effect of, "The greatest pieces of art, be that of any form, have the quality of an accident and are done in spontaneity as if there was no intention involved."

NewAgeMan: Your last post was also great.

Peace.

I could read a book on bicycles, I could understand how they work, how the pedals turn the gears, how the wheels move, how gravity operates and how the bicycle moves - I could spend years knowing each and every aspect there is to riding a bicycle, however, never having actually ridden one.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

There is no real purpose though, is there? What purpose does the picture of the Mona Lisa have?
Life is art.

I believe there are paths that you walk on and the path would be your purpose. Above all, the purpose is to just exist.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

I am interested in what you suggest, you say 'stop thinking', is this something that you have achieved?
If so how did you do it?

Of course. Meditation. If you can't stop thinking, just quiet the mind to a point where you can barely hear your thoughts. All that goes on in your head is what you observe. It takes practice.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


Perhaps the making of meaning is itself the meaning of life..

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Life is art. It moves us. A painter who sits down with the intention to move us is unlikely to be moved to paint.
Intention is the killer of inspiration. In-spiration is the spirit in us, it is that that moves us.
A painting that is viewed moves us if we can see it without intention.
Intention is purpose.

Have a look at this if you haven't seen it before;
youtu.be...
It moves me everytime, i feel it as a carress.
Feel life, we are feeling beings.

So art then is a spontaneous expression of gratitude in response to life, created as an act of generosity, as if to say to the creator - I love you too, please accept this art as my thanks for the gift of life, or something like that..?

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


"language is definitely a symbolic phonic representation of a mental image from memory. ."
smithjustinb
" Supposing I teach someone the use of the word "yellow" by repeatedly pointing to a yellow patch and pronouncing the word. On another occasion I make him apply what he has learnt by giving him the order, "choose a yellow ball out of this bag". What was it that happened when he obeyed my order? I say "possibly just this: he heard my words and took a yellow ball from the bag". Now you may be inclined to think that this couldn't possibly have been all; and the kind of the thing that you would suggest is that he imagined something yellow when he understood the order, and then chose a ball according to his image. To see that this is not necessary remember that I could have given him the order, "Imagine a yellow patch". Would you still be inclined to assume that he first imagines a yellow patch, just understanding my order, and then imagines a yellow patch to match the first? "
Wittgenstein
FROM
www.geocities.jp...
In other words the theory that words derive their meaning from mental imagery creates an infinite regress and therefore is not a plausible theory.
en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Perhaps the making of meaning is itself the meaning of life..

Thanks Yogi Berra, lol.

"I wish I had an answer to that because I'm tired of answering that question."

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

Peace.