The paradox of knowledge

When I say the word “love”, the phonic tones of my voice travel from my mouth to your ears and you begin to search through your memories in order to give this sensation meaning. Depending on your previous experiences associated with this word, maybe happy memories arise or maybe sad memories arise. Either way, you associate what I have said with what it is your memories have reminded you of. So then have you actually listened to me or have you merely evoked memories associated with this structure of sound? Please think about this deeply, it is truly important to clarify these things.

All of our use of language seems to work in this way. In fact, it seems all of our five senses work in this way. When we see something; for instance our spouse or child or friend, do we actually see them or do we merely evoke memories associated with these sights? What about with the sensation of smelling? Do we actually smell the flower or do we merely evoke memories associated with this smell?

I ask these questions because I wonder if our desire to give meaning to all that we experience inhibits us from actually seeing, smelling, hearing, or feeling the nature of reality as it truly is. I wonder if this desire to attach meaning to all of our experiences is locking us into a rigid and limited systematic pattern of how we perceive these phenomena. If so, then the very thing that most of us associate as empowering and liberating, being conceptual knowledge, is in fact a form of bondage. Is this then not a tremendously disturbing paradox? It is like a man trying to dig himself out of a grave by digging downwards, all while continuously tossing the dirt back onto his head; he is then in fact only burying himself deeper in the grave.

Peace.

Interesting thoughts.

Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy
When I say the word “love”, the phonic tones of my voice travel from my mouth to your ears and you begin to search through your memories in order to give this sensation meaning. Depending on your previous experiences associated with this word, maybe happy memories arise or maybe sad memories arise. Either way, you associate what I have said with what it is your memories have reminded you of. So then have you actually listened to me or have you merely evoked memories associated with this structure of sound? Please think about this deeply, it is truly important to clarify these things.

language is definitely a symbolic phonic representation of a mental image from memory. Thoughts are usually mental contemplations of knowledge of the past.

All of our use of language seems to work in this way. In fact, it seems all of our five senses work in this way. When we see something; for instance our spouse or child or friend, do we actually see them or do we merely evoke memories associated with these sights? What about with the sensation of smelling? Do we actually smell the flower or do we merely evoke memories associated with this smell?

I think in the sense operate with a little bit of both. You are limited by your preconceptions, but experience arises. It would arise in its full glory if you were not limiting the experience by past experiences of the object. Therefore, you shouldn't think or try to know anything. You should only experience. This is the path to bliss.

I ask these questions because I wonder if our desire to give meaning to all that we experience inhibits us from actually seeing, smelling, hearing, or feeling the nature of reality as it truly is. I wonder if this desire to attach meaning to all of our experiences is locking us into a rigid and limited systematic pattern of how we perceive these phenomena. If so, then the very thing that most of us associate as empowering and liberating, being conceptual knowledge, is in fact a form of bondage. Is this then not a tremendously disturbing paradox? It is like a man trying to dig himself out of a grave by digging downwards, all while continuously tossing the dirt back onto his head; he is then in fact only burying himself deeper in the grave.

Peace.

Knowledge is our bondage. You are very wise to have come to this conclusion as have I. Others may not see it this way and they are entitled to their perspective, however their path will be different from yours or mine. They are on the path to MATERIALISM which directly accelerates their knowledge, but it also keeps them from wisdom. I urge everyone to read that link.

It sounds like you are outlining the differences between Sympathy and Empathy. Yes our language is sympathetic in that we only relate to it via what we feel and remember. So to use your example of love, if you said love to me I would sympathize it to my experiences and memories from my own point of view. If I were to Empathize with the word then I would see it for what it is through someone else experience.

I appreciate your views. Applying this to other situations where Empathy should rule over our structured minds. When I look at my wife do I really see her? Not a chance. With todays minds being so consumed with text messages, songs on the radio, tv commercials, loud cars, busy sidewalks, full work schedules and the other 10,000 mundane things we have been programmed to chase our abilities to see the world as it truly exists has been nullified.

With our hearts and minds closed off most people who have been programmed to the extent that society has become would laugh at you even trying to explain your views on this. I think you have done an excellent job at it, this is something I have been trying to expand on in my own life recently. I am sick of the distractions when reality is so full of awesome potential and we cant grasp but a fraction of a single percent of it!


Knowledge is not our bondage.
Knowledge is liberating if you focus on the correct information.
Our perceptions are our bondage.

Order within Chaos or Chaos within Order either way we encompass both

it is all bondage even the concept of freewill is in itself another form of bondage I believe we live on a prison planet put here by some ancient alien scientist who was searching for god created our species in search of god and as a workforce
it makes sense to me. create a species that looks for a being outside of themselves all the while what they seek is within hence we were made in its image we can co-create but any limitation to our potential growth is bondage our aging is a limitation we are dependent on air and water for our survival another limitation any limitation to our being either spiritual physical mental material is bondage so in my opinion we are born into bondage life itself limits the spirit that inhabits it so we live on prison planet terra

reply to post by Savorrow


That is interesting you equated this to sympathy versus empathy. I did not think of it like that, it kind of makes sense though. I would not say the ability to see reality as it truly is has been nullified, maybe greatly hindered, but not nullified. With enough desire to do so one can surely still do so. Maybe you will have to abandon what is considered a "normal" lifestyle in order to do so, but what is considered a "normal" lifestyle is not all that it is cracked up to be anyways. And who cares if people laugh or ridicule you for how you live your life, or how you perceive reality, they laugh and ridicule you for many reasons that are far more trivial then that. Maybe we should just laugh with them, after all, it is kind of funny that there are so few people willing to look at reality as it truly is.

Anyways, they have made a simple mistake in the way they perceive reality, and they have created their entire foundation for life off of this simple mistake. So why give them so much credit and power as if they know something that you don't?

Peace.

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


It seems to be our nature that we only enter fully into an experience the first time we undergo it. After that we taint it with the memories of before and loose the essence of what we're trying to do. You are perfectly right (and superbly eloquent ) in your OP but it does not mean that we cannot take back control, which as you know is something I've made my personal mission!

A lot of people of people will sleep their way through life, re-living instead of living experiences and this is a sad state of affairs but when you put them into the greater context of the world and knowledge structures we adhere to today then you can see that most people literally haven't got a chance.

People like you, like I, and like a lot of other very intelligent and bright posters here can and we owe it to both them and ourselves to shine our light brightly into the world and to live a rich fulfilled life in the eternal now that knows no past or future in the hope our brothers will join in with us.

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


Like I said, I think everyone here could benefit from reading this:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

You don't have to agree. Just read it and store it in your head just in case it might become relevant in the future.

If all of our five senses are merely evoking memories of a previous experience, how is it then that we can gain new memories at all?

You said 'love' and it reminded me of times in the past I associated with the word love (positive or negative). How then do we change and evolve? How is it that my understanding of love is enhanced with every passing moment I commit to memory.

When I see my spouse, am I just remembering all of my experiences with her? I ask you this, how did I meet her and get to know her in the first place?

reply to post by IntegratedInstigator


You raise some great points and ask some difficult questions. Maybe it isn't that we always are evoking memories during experiences, just most of the time. Or maybe we do this only on experiences we can associate to other experiences stored in our memory, therefore if we are to experience something completely new, completely foreign to us, then maybe this doesn't happen. But how often do we experience something like that, especially as we grow older?

As far as your love for your spouse, well, I have a feeling that we often use this word "love" as a form of attachment. Therefore it would probably be more accurate to state, "I am attached to you" more-so than "I love you", . I know, that won't go over with the wifey or hubby very well, but you never know, honesty is a virtue!

And why did you fall in "love" with your spouse, why were you attracted to them, was it because she/he evoked previous memories within you that were pleasant? Or was it because you truly saw her/him as she/he truly is without being influenced by any memories of previous experiences that you might of been able to associate towards them? I ask this because it seems that if you truly seen him/her without evoking any past memories of experiences then there would of been no need to grasp on to them and claim them as "your spouse", for, you would look at all of life in this manner equally. I don't know, maybe you shouldn't listen to me, I don't want to influence any problems in your life. I just think that if people want to use this word "love", which seems to be used in such a fluffy and shallow manner, then they should clarify exactly what they mean by using such a word so confusion does not arise within themselves or within others whom they are directing such a statement towards.

For that matter, people should clarify for themselves every word they use so not become confused or misguided. It seems too often we just hear other people use certain words to describe certain things and we jump on the bandwagon, so to speak, and use them too without ever really defining what it truly means to us.

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


It's not just memories, but also information we've gathered and part of our sense is open to new exploration and interpretation of the experience. For example, when you smell or see or feel or experience something you've never done before or in some cases never heard of or thought of before, then nearly 100% of our senses are operating in this "exploration mode" of taking in new information. And I would suppose that this isn't the same for all of us, as some are more "open-minded" when it comes to new things. For example, some people, when confronted with something they don't understand, might be rather quick to categorize something as "evil" or might assume other things more quickly than some others who might have more of a "wait and see" approach, and give strange situations and experiences more of a chance and a closer look before they pass judgement. I hope this is at least somewhat in line with what you were talking about and if not then I am extremely sorry. Hopefully it did something for somebody other than myself by feeding my ego by believing that I can type stuff that is worth reading by other people on the internet

I hope you dont mind if I chop your post, one of your thoughts spoke directly to me and I want to address that thought specifically.

Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy
reply to post by IntegratedInstigator

 

[SNIP]

And why did you fall in "love" with your spouse, why were you attracted to them, was it because she/he evoked previous memories within you that were pleasant? Or was it because you truly saw her/him as she/he truly is without being influenced by any memories of previous experiences that you might of been able to associate towards them?

[SNIP]

Your entire post was thought provoking, but this simple part had me stopped in my tracks. I am not married, but I recently had an S.O. who I let go. We dated through college for nearly 5 years but our lives took different directions post-grad. We left on good terms.

This girl was the closest I have ever felt to. Given the right circumstances, marriage would not have been out of the question. What you said above turned out to be absolutely right. She was not something new, she was comfortable, she completed a part of me that I was missing.

Having said that, I can now see how previous experiences would have shaped my relationship with her; How it drew me strongly to her personality. My preferences must be borne of pre-existing experiences, no? (Put it this way, If I havent experienced something I generally dont have a preference for, or against it yet.)

I love reading the metaphysical and philosophical threads, as they get my brain working. As you can tell by my username IntegratedInstigator, I like to instigate a bit, I like to push buttons, press hard, and see how people stand up to their claims. Being as such, I still have to ask how small children gain memories, we all start off from square one with nothing.

Answer? : We arent able to remember anything between 0-3 years or so, mabye 4? Is this the period of learning and experience, and everything past that is merely manipulating those experiences? This is why I have so much fun with those threads. I love to let my mind run wild.

Thanks for starting this thread and addressing my post directly. It looks like you put a lot of time and thought into the response, 3-4 paragraphs and 2 edits. Although I dont really have a strong argument against your response this time, I look forward to your point of view once you read my reply back.

Namaste
II

I think this might help a little.

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


Hmm, where have I heard this before?...

reply to post by gaurdian2012


Rather than aliens creating us, my belief, and yours is still a possibility to me, is that aliens showed us the materialistic way. They introduced technology to us. They might have even tweaked us a little bit to make us prone to utilize our technological capabilities. Materialism serves the purpose of accelerating knowledge and the acceleration of knowledge is a direct product of materialism and materialism only. So that would mean they're using us for our knowledge.

reply to post by smithjustinb


Hasnt materialism always been intrinsic to us (and not only us, other species too)? Thousands of years ago egyptians used gold as currency, native americans used wampum (sea shells?). Anyways my point is that currency implies trade, which in turn implies a sense of materialism. (You have to OWN something to trade it.)

*Other species materialism. Dont crows (or ravens?) tend to collect shiny things? Arent many carnivores possessive over their kills? (random species displaying want for a material item).

**Lastly, higher cognitive function would understand that amassing material wealth would enforce power over other material beings. To invoke currency, one has to establish the NON-material worth of a material item (such as gold, shells, etc).

***Im not sure what side I am arguing for, but merely being an instigator as per my username, my questions are honestly curious.

I dont mean to start fights, I just play 'devils advocate' by nature

Cool thread though!

Originally posted by IntegratedInstigator
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

Hasnt materialism always been intrinsic to us (and not only us, other species too)? Thousands of years ago egyptians used gold as currency, native americans used wampum (sea shells?). Anyways my point is that currency implies trade, which in turn implies a sense of materialism. (You have to OWN something to trade it.)

*Other species materialism. Dont crows (or ravens?) tend to collect shiny things? Arent many carnivores possessive over their kills? (random species displaying want for a material item).

**Lastly, higher cognitive function would understand that amassing material wealth would enforce power over other material beings. To invoke currency, one has to establish the NON-material worth of a material item (such as gold, shells, etc).

***Im not sure what side I am arguing for, but merely being an instigator as per my username, my questions are honestly curious.

I dont mean to start fights, I just play 'devils advocate' by nature

Cool thread though!

In response to your reply, I have this
www.abovetopsecret.com...
and I just wrote this
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Was it not the Tree of Knowledge that Adam and Eve ate from that banished them from the garden of Eden?
The garden of Eden was paradise.
If we could see, taste and hear each moment as new and fresh then life would be heaven.
Living in the now. Conscious that you are conscious.
Generally people are so stressed that they are unaware of the moment that they are living, they are planning the future or worrying about the past. Not many see and hear what is going on around them, walk around a supermarket and look at the faces. I was going to say that there is no one in, but really they are so in that they can't see out.
This is why Jesus said that he can cure the blind.
It is all about being conscious of this now eternal moment.
You are now, you are presence itself.

Memories can be very unpleasant, take post traumatic stress syndrome, and they have a tendency to ruin our veiw of life.

Delete meaningless error.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


Our purpose is not to know, it is to experience. Knowledge is what you think. So stop thinking, and just be with what is there.

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


It is certainly disturbing if the human being is regarded as nothing but a meaning-making machine, or intensly amuzing if not hilarious...if we are not.