Israel agrees to negotiate pre 67 lines

reply to post by Xcathdra


Once again that is not "land for peace". The concept of land for peace is that Israel agrees to withdraw from the West Bank for a peace agreement with a Palestinian entity. What Israel is agreeing to is "land for peace and other better land"

While we are on the subject of Hamas, you do realise that there is not international law requiring them to recognize Israel? Recognition is just a stalling ploy.

reply to post by Xcathdra

Whats your feeling about Hamasw statement about not recognizing Israel>? You keep avoiding it?

Hamas refuses to recognize Israel, so why should ISrael recognize a Palestinian state?

Now we're assuming Hamas is not controlled by Israel right?

If I was forced from my home, bombed and blockaded, then maybe I wouldn't recognize them either..

But really, who cares???

It ain't Israel's decision so I'm unsure why they have to stick their big noses into it..

BTW, who recognized Israel when they first became a state?
Didn't they just do it themselves or something

I'll take this with a grain of salt. Netanyahu is a known liar through-out the world. Today he's hot, tomorrow he's cold. You can't trust a thing this crackerjack says. I'll believe it when I see some progress being made on final borders. Until then, it's just another lie as far as I'm concerned.

Originally posted by backinblack
. . . .

BTW, who recognized Israel when they first became a state?
Didn't they just do it themselves or something

--What countries recognized the State of Israel?

On May 14, 1948, the leaders of the Jewish organizations in Palestine, headed byDavid Ben-Gurion,proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel, to take effect at midnight that night.

At that point, the State of Israel came into existence. The United States recognized the provisional Jewish government as de facto authority of the Jewish state within minutes. The Soviet Union granted de jure recognition almost immediately in 1948 along with seven other states within the next five days (Guatemala, Byelorussia, the Ukraine, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Uruguay, and Yugoslavia).

Israel’s success in defending its territory against the invading Arab armies in 1948made the country an established reality. General elections were held on January 25, 1949: the provisional State Council was replaced by an elected Parliament (Knesset) and the Provisional Government by a regular parliamentary Government.De jure recognition by the United States was extended on January 31, 1949 after the permanent government was sworn in.On January 29, 1949, the former Mandatory Power, Britain, recognized the state of Israel, a step that also recognized the end of British efforts to affect the course of the region?s politics.

In the fall of 1948, Israel had applied for membership in the United Nations but failed to win the necessary majority in the Security Council. In February 1949, Israel renewed its application for membership in the United Nations. On March 4, 1949, the Security Council recommended to the General Assembly that it be admitted. On May 11, Israel was admitted, to become the 59th member. Between January 1, 1949 and May 11. 1949, Israel was recognised by 32 States, in addition to the 20 that had accorded it recognition prior to December 31, 1948. Today Israel has fulldiplomatic relations with most countries of the world, except portions of the Islamic/Arab blockthat continue to believe that Israel can somehow be eliminated.--

Link

reply to post by backinblack


You are completely incapable of answering any questions without involving Israel.

Sad

reply to post by SpeachM1litant


and Without recognition Hamas is bent on the destruction of Israel. Because of that, and the fact that they are in control in Gaza, would be a roadblock.

Why should Israel allow a palestinian state when they are bent on its desttruction. Israel would be better of continuing the containment of Hamas in Gaza.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by backinblack

 

You are completely incapable of answering any questions without involving Israel.

Sad

Yes it is..
Sad that many in Palestine have NEVER known a normal life..

Every aspect controlled by a foreign power who walks through YOUR land with a gun..
Tells you what you can eat, drink or even listen to..
Controls where you can and can't go and what roads you may take..

I could go on and on and on but the "sad" truth is as you say,

It's impossible to speak of Palestine without thinking of Israel..

Why should Israel allow a palestinian state when they are bent on its desttruction. Israel would be better of continuing the containment of Hamas in Gaza.

What a joke...

Israel allow?? Who the hell are they??

They are "ONE" voice, one vote in the UN..
Yeah sure, they have a few mates to support them but so do Palestine..

I'm amazed at the extended effort being put into ATS lately to try and show Palestine in a harsh light..

The only thing that will stop Palestine now IMO will be a major incident...
I just wonder who will start it.

reply to post by Xcathdra


a) Non-recognition does not suggest destruction
b) If it trully has a problem of Hamas being in power in the Gaza strip, simply permit a Palestinian state in the West Bank while continuing to "contain" Gaza. This would firstly deter Hamas and result in alot of defections from Hamas.

Originally posted by SpeachM1litant
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

a) Non-recognition does not suggest destruction

It doesn't ???

from the Hamas charter:

“"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

“Peaceful Solutions, [Peace] Initiatives and International Conferences
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion...There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility....”

"Article Fifteen: The Jihad for the Liberation of Palestine is an Individual Obligation
When our enemies usurp some Islamic lands, Jihad becomes a duty binding on all Muslims. In order to face the usurpation of Palestine by the Jews, we have no escape from raising the banner of Jihad. This would require the propagation of Islamic consciousness among the masses on all local, Arab and Islamic levels. We must spread the spirit of Jihad among the [Islamic] Umma, clash with the enemies and join the ranks of the Jihad fighters...”


the phased solution:



Earth calling speechmilitant.

reply to post by gravitational


Non-recognition and involving in your charter that the destruction of Israel is your goal is an entirely different thing. In fact there are a multitude of states. many Middle Eastern and Muslim which do recognize Israel, have limited recognition of Israel, do not have normal relations with Israel or do not have diplomatic relations with Israel, yet they are not actively seeking to destroy the state of Israel. However non-Muslim states which do not recognize Israel include Cuba, North Korea and Taiwan. When was the last time Cuba sent a suicide bomber to Israel? Actually Israel it self maintains relations with only around 160 countries. What more, there are many states which are not recognized by countries, such as Taiwan, Transnistria, Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, Armenia, Peoples Republic of China and Cyprus- yet the countries which do not recognize them aren't actively seeking to destroy them and in many instances they have peace treaties with these countries.

You know one thing I find rather hypocritical, while Hamas does not recognize Israel, Israel does not recognize Palestine. Don't you find this at all hypocritical?

Hamas's actions do not excuse Israel conduct in the West Bank. In fact by punishing Palestinians in the West Bank (expanding settlements, continuing the occupation, taking 80% if the water from West Bank aquifiers, carving up the country making it difficult to travel and so forth) only pushes more people into the arms of Hamas. Hamas can state they have achieved somthing and that is Israeli withdrawal from Gaza while Fatah can say they haven't stoped Goliath in any way. If Israel was truly commited to peace they would recognize this. A student with a 3 week education in international politics would have surely heard the concept of the carrot and the stick (incentives and deterents) otherwise known as smart power. All I can say is Israel is doing it wrong. They definetely have a big stick smacking the West Bank in the face, but no carrot.

Originally posted by SpeachM1litant

You know one thing I find rather hypocritical, while Hamas does not recognize Israel, Israel does not recognize Palestine. Don't you find this at all hypocritical?

Israel = state

Palestine != state (for now. That could obviously change).

So for now, apples and oranges.

Just wanted to throw that out there.

You may continue getting faceroll-owned by Xcathdra now.

reply to post by gravitational


Recognition? I'm showing you Hamas's Manifest that clearly say there is no peaceful solution and never will be. They call for Jihad against the Jews to liberate whole of “Palestine”, from the river to the sea.
Recognition my Arse. They talk about destroying Israel. All of it.
You haven't read a thing I posted have you?

Edit : That is a response to speechmilitant obviously.

Originally posted by gravitational
reply to post by gravitational

 

Recognition? I'm showing you Hamas's Manifest that clearly say there is no peaceful solution and never will be. They call for Jihad against the Jews to liberate whole of “Palestine”, from the river to the sea.
Recognition my Arse. They talk about destroying Israel. All of it.
You haven't read a thing I posted have you?

Edit : That is a response to speechmilitant obviously.

edit on 10-8-2011 by gravitational because: in case you wonder

Actions speak louder than words so IMO,
Israel's manifest is pretty much the same, no peace with Palestine..

I don't know if Israel controls Hamas or not but the fact is, Hamas has done more to further Israel's agenda than any other body with very little damage to Israel.

reply to post by backinblack


If actions speak louder than words.....

Israel has aanounced they are open to land for peace.

In response Hamas calls for Israels destruction.

I think the neural network of the Hamas leaders would fritz out if a Palestinian state was achieved. They cant seem to get past constantly attacking Israel.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by backinblack

 

If actions speak louder than words.....

Israel has aanounced they are open to land for peace.

In response Hamas calls for Israels destruction.

I think the neural network of the Hamas leaders would fritz out if a Palestinian state was achieved. They cant seem to get past constantly attacking Israel.

All words, no action..

Not sure what you're trying to say...

Here is my take on the palestinian issue. If it is ever made an official state and Israel agrees to whatever borders, within the first 3 months they would be at war with each other. Israel, with the US leash off it would decimate Hamas controlled palestine. Islam will never let it go even if Israel was willing.

reply to post by backinblack


That Hamas is not concerned at all about gaining a Palestinian state while being more concerned with the absolute destruction of Israel (in their charter). Hamas says they want a Palestinian state yet all of their actions to date have underminded that goal. In my opinion it just appears they are using the Palestinian State argument as a pretext to attack Israel.

I know that you are generally on the other side of the fence than I am in these threads, so lets not get tangeled up in that argument.

Question -
Based on everything that has occured in the Middle East, would it not be more conductive to work out a a basic peace treaty that allows for the establishment of a Palestinian State, and then go back to hash out the rest?

It reminds me of the US Congress and legislation. They get to a point where they agree on everything except for one topic. We then get to watch both sides blame each other for the current situation.

Wouldnt it be more productive to build on the common ground both sides agree on while removing the contested portions? Like the legislation example remove the item that is the sticking point, pass a bill on the rest and then come back to the table to hash out the contested portion?

I would think a Palestinian State that has UN member status as a sovereign country would be able to bring more pressue on Israel to negotiate on the disputed portions.

reply to post by Xcathdra


The main obstacle for peace seems to be Israel's unwillingness to set borders or give up land taken or settlements..

But arguing it's all the fault of Hamas is a little silly..

Hamas controls a very small part of Palestine..

Israel still blockades the entirety and controls all resources,airspace,media and land area..
Why if Hamas is not involed???

Not to mention Hamas has really done precious little to damage Israel..

Originally posted by backinblack
The main obstacle for peace seems to be Israel's unwillingness to set borders or give up land taken or settlements..

That was part of my main point. Israel is willing to negotiate land for peace. What I was suggesting was why not established a Palestinian state based on whats already been agreed to by both sides. Use the mutual agreement to establish Palestinian state, and then knuckle down and work out the issues that werent agreed on.

Palestinians negotiating as a Sovereign country with full UN membership puts them in a much better position to gain support that they couldnt get before. It would also change some of the rules in Palestinians favor by being able to use the UN laws that deal with soveriegn nations instead of the ones that deal with occupation.

Originally posted by backinblack
But arguing it's all the fault of Hamas is a little silly..

I blame Hamas because I feel they are using the Palestinian issue as an excuse to push their other agenda. Do you think Israel is going to be more inclined or less inclined to let a Palestinian State become established if the government of Hamas goes on record still advocating the destruction of Israel?

Thats why I am blaming Hamas. Their insitance on the complete destruction of Israel will always be a sticking point to peace.

Originally posted by backinblack
Hamas controls a very small part of Palestine..

Has the unity government become offical yet or is that still in the works?