The Tea Party is anti-democratic and guilty of abuse of power

I got into a discussion with some friends of mine recently about the (Tea Party)....and many think that the Tea Party are just an extension of the Republican Party. I personally am not sure what to think...at this point and time...but I do know this...I am going to study and find out....who is who...and what is what.

I was looking up older archives on the Tea Party...and found one that is hilarious....here is the link....

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Amazing how many people are scared of the Tea Party and freedom of speech and the right to organize and protest. Didn’t know these were anti democratic activities. But I guess if it’s not what you agree with, you will say anything to get rid of the people that don’t agree with. Typical liberals.

I count myself among the Tea Party.

We want responsible government that stays the **** out of our lives and spends less than it takes from me.

What do you disagree with?

It boils down to this:

Do you think you're responsible for me? Do you think it's ok that the government takes your hard-earned money and just hands it to me because I don't have a job?

I'm a crack head. I do meth. I have 7 DUIs. I've never had a job earning more than minimum wage. I've fathered 8 kids and I'm not paying child support. I filed for unemployment, and I can expect 99 weeks of steady checks coming in.

You? You went to school, got your BS, got your MS, you're paying a mortgage, living responsibly, trying to feed your family and make ends meet, but.... now... part of your paycheck comes to me.

THANKS!

It's really that simple. Sesame Street simple.

Originally posted by kellynap43
Amazing how many people are scared of the Tea Party and freedom of speech and the right to organize and protest. Didn’t know these were anti democratic activities. But I guess if it’s not what you agree with, you will say anything to get rid of the people that don’t agree with. Typical liberals.

Sorry kellynap43,

But what you describe ..according to Janet Nepalitano..these are terrorist values and thoughts. Or at least "Extremist values and thoughts."

You are going to need watching...very very closely.

Orangetom

wow nice job. gave u some stars

Originally posted by kellynap43
Amazing how many people are scared of the Tea Party and freedom of speech and the right to organize and protest. Didn’t know these were anti democratic activities.

Who is?
Where are these people?
Are you talking about on ATS?
In the media?
Be specific. Who is afraid of these things and how do you know?

Originally posted by tangonine
It's really that simple. Sesame Street simple.

edit on 18-8-2011 by tangonine because: (no reason given)

It really is not that simple. Not even remotely. Unless you go and by your own deserted island and build your own society, it is really very complicated.

reply to post by tangonine


If you want responsible government than don't vote for the TPers, however they started out, they are now controlled by people who not only created our current mess, but want to continue with the currents mess. They tell you one thing, and then do another, and it is really foolish to ignore what is going on.

You are a tool, a symbol created by the elites, who also control the Tea Party, used in the same manner as the Tea party to be a bad example of how to behave, and therefore a wedge to keep us all separated.

What you have posted makes me think you are a sucker, who thinks himself clever, whether or not you are what you say you are.

reply to post by nenothtu


Sorry to take so long to get back to you.

Why do you keep saying that people must work for free "to build and maintain the infrastructure for us to get all of this stuff for free?"

It is as if you are programmed to think that you must work for others in order to get stuff.

Long ago I figured out that when I work for myself, I create about 4 times more wealth for myself than when I work at some corporation.

What does the U.S. produce? The biggest thing we produce is technology. Apple is now the biggest company in the world. If it wasn't for oil imports, we wouldn't have a trade deficit. Most cars bought in America, are primarily made in America. The most made in America automobile is actually a Honda. You really need to look at the economic output of the U.S.. We produce far more per capita than any other country. A few counties in France and the Netherlands manage to have a higher productivity than the entire U.S., which ain't sayin much. U.S. productivity in the gold standard of the world, and always has been. The U.S. also attracts more foreign investment than any other country for a whole pack of reasons.

If you are not aware of how amazing the U.S. economy is compared to the rest of the world, than that ought to be a major indicator of how badly you are misinformed.

My Granddad was a farmer, and for several generations back my family were farmers. He was one of those guys who, back in the day, other farmers would travel long distances to talk to him. My Dad took me out to the farm regularly, and now and then some guy would should up, often with his family, and introduce himself, say what an honor it was, and how he traveled a long distance to meet him. You might say he was a farmers farmer, back in the day when U.S. farm productivity was outpacing the rest of the world by numbers that created a whole new classification. This is when most people in the U.S. lived on family farms, or small towns.

I don't know if you are aware of this, but the U.S. population was primarily rural up until about mid 20th century. Farmers produced most of their own goods. Granddad made most of his early radios from kits, out of breadboxes. Jacked up the house, installed a basement, plumbing, central heating, electricity, they were pretty independent. That is how things could and should go back to being.

Big corporations worked hard to destroy the family farms and so our independence.

Even he couldn't figure out why it was "right" for the poor to rob from the rich, any more than it was for the rich to rob from the poor. To his way of thinking, theft was theft, no matter which way it flowed. He believed, as do I, that a fair tax system would be the same rate on everyone, across the board, with no loopholes to get out of it for either the rich or the poor.

Wow!!!! do you seriously think the poor rob from the rich?????

The facts are more the opposite, except it is the rich robbing the middle class. The rich are just a whole lot more clever in robbing wealth from others. Well, it is less being clever, and more working the system in the sleeziest of manners.

I believe a fair tax system would mean people pay for the services they get from government, and under the free market preaching repub admins who created almost all of our huge fed gov deficit, almost all the services provided by government served the super rich, and worked against working class people.


Almost all the services provided by government serves the super rich, the top .001% of tax payers, therefore the super rich, or better yet, big ICs, should pay for almost all fed gov taxes. Take the U.S. military for example. The U.S. military has been turned into the security force for the ICs, from which most super rich people get their wealth. If the fact that under repub admins, they refuse to protect our borders, allowing illegal immigrants to invade our country at will doesn't demonstrate this adequately, than 9/11 sure should have. The next biggest fed gov expenditure is Medicaid, which primarily serves to aid illegal immigrants, make sure they can safely have lots of kids, while the rest of us second class citizens have to pay out the wazoo for medical care.

What would be fair is if the super rich were taxed at 90% of their incomes until the U.S. deficit was paid down back to where it was as a proportion of GDP where it was back in 1960. And before you go there, don't bother to bring up SS and medicare, as these programs are fully funded by the people who received the benefits. SS has nothing to do with our current deficit.

Corporations, as synthetic entities rather than natural ones, could and probably should be subject to a different percentage take.

I agree fully with you here. The costs of goods and services provided by corporations should include the costs of government support that allows these corporations to operate in the first place. Then the cost of corporate goods and services would reflect their true cost.

With our current tax system, working peoples income taxes are being used to subsidize corporate operations, lowering the costs of corporate goods, or in otherwise, working people in the U.S. are subsidizing the exportation of their own jobs. That is plain wrong. That is how the rich are robbing the middle class of the U.S..

Inheritance taxes should definitely be used to tax the super wealthy. That is to get all the taxes they rightfully owe, that they managed to hide. Personally, I don't think people like Paris Hilton pay enough taxes.

I fully agree with you on capital gains taxes, as the current system exists, I see it as nothing but legalized gambling. The huge bite that the finance markets take out of our economy is criminal IMO, and the TPers sure don't want anything to be done about it. That ought to tell you exactly whose side they are really on.

They filled out everything FOR me, did all the paperwork and everything, and I was nothing short of shocked and amazed at how much I got to keep out of it. It really didn't strike me as right, but they wouldn't take any more, and believe it or not I tried to get them to.

In all my dealings the IRS, I have found them to be a decent organization, while all my dealing with banks, investment firms, and a large number of insurance companies, they have consistently demonstrated to me that they are crooks. If you have had similar experiences, why do you continue to blame the government for the crooked actions of private institutions.

No, I'm not against taxes, I just think the code needs a major overhaul and simplification, and a more equitable taxing system for individuals. The most complicated taxes ought to be import taxes, which should have a direct correlation with what the producing country is taxing US on OUR exports to them.

We are in full agreement here. Also, we should base import taxes on how other countries are meeting environmental laws, and labor laws, and how much more we have to inspect what they send to us, to make sure they aren't sending us poison as baby food. We all share the same planet, and they shouldn't be allowed to pollute our air, land, or water anywhere on the planet so fat cats can buy more mcmansions and trophy wives. People who make decent money have less children and live better lives, which is better for all of us. When we allow slave labor in other countries, we are only inviting slavery into our own country.

Um, a drivers license is a state requirement, not a fed gov requirement. The fed gov should not regulate peoples lives, except when it involves activities that cross state borders. For example, if someone kidnaps someone else in one state, and drives them to another, then the fed gov should step in and do some regulating, or in otherwise, enforcement of the law.

IMO, the state, county, and city governments are the ones who do most of abuse against individual rights, and our fed government does not do enough to protect people against the abuses heaped by local governments.

I do not contend that corporations are firmly in bed with government.

It is my opinion that corporations have managed gain too much control over our political process through the con job of the free market, and phony baloney organizations like the TPers who only pretend to be against gov corruption, when they are complete for the lobbyists and corruption of the process.

It is also my opinion that if the people were to wake up to what a scam the whole free market concept is, then they could take back control of our government, as has been done numerous times in the past.

You might want to consider that you live in the best country in the world, like most people on this planet. Then yo9u might want to consider that the quality of our government is the biggest factor. ICs, are of course all over the planet, clearly they are not the answer. Those who seek to undermine the U.S. government, like the TPers, are not looking out for your best interest.

I would like to see a third party emerge, but the TPers are not it. I looked, and do not like what I see.

The TPers are exactly like the Bu#es/Reaganites, free market, Mises, communist preaching, elites who seek to destroy the U.S. government and enslave us.

As far as the demos are concerned, they only seem interested in using racism and other forms of bigotry to practice their own favorite brand of bigotry, through class warfare. They are just elitists of a different brand.

I want a party that supports making the super rich pay their fair share, because they certainly do not, and start protecting our borders, and enforcing laws against white collar crime, writing trade agreements that represent the interests of the people of the U.S. over the interests ICs and therefore elites. That is what we need.

I agree with you on freedom, I just think cars and women are worth the cost benefit ratio.


As far as the rich are concerned, I have been participating on a thread that covers this ground at this link.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by poet1b

Sorry to take so long to get back to you.

No problems. Busy day today, so I'll try to keep this brief.

Why do you keep saying that people must work for free "to build and maintain the infrastructure for us to get all of this stuff for free?"

Because it won't build itself. people have to build and maintain it, and if those people are to be paid, money has to come from somewhere. If they are not to be paid, then it can be fairly said that they are working for free.

It is as if you are programmed to think that you must work for others in order to get stuff.

No, it's really not like that at all, and I'm not sure how you arrive at that.

Long ago I figured out that when I work for myself, I create about 4 times more wealth for myself than when I work at some corporation.

Long ago I figured out that when I work for myself, I don't have to put up with as much crap. I've never been concerned with "creating wealth", as long as I'm making it OK, that's enough. Wealth isn't much of an issue for me, although I can see how too much of it could become a problem. I don't like problems. Problems become issues with me.

What does the U.S. produce? The biggest thing we produce is technology. Apple is now the biggest company in the world. If it wasn't for oil imports, we wouldn't have a trade deficit. Most cars bought in America, are primarily made in America. The most made in America automobile is actually a Honda. You really need to look at the economic output of the U.S.. We produce far more per capita than any other country.

ever cracked open one of those computers and seen where it was really made? How about your car? The last new car I bought was in 1988. It was allegedly built by Ford, but said "Hecho en Mexico" on every single part. I never bought another one.

Where is Honda's HQ? I mean, where did they originate?

I build computers for grins and giggles, so I'm well acquainted with where the technology really comes from. I've never, ever claimed one of my computers was "made in America" just because I slapped the parts together in my living room.

If you are not aware of how amazing the U.S. economy is compared to the rest of the world, than that ought to be a major indicator of how badly you are misinformed.

I might be misinformed now, since I don't travel much any more. In the past I have been to places where, I kid you not, people ate dirt as if it were actual food. Don't know how it is out there now. I have to say, though, that if the US economy is better than the rest of the world, then I don't believe there's any hope. we as a planet are doomed.

Like your grand dad, I make my own computers, although kits are hard to come by. I have to figure out what I want it to do, what parts are necessary to make it do that, and then make a list and head to a wholesaler. Still, the principle is the same, and I get what you're saying.

I also understand what you mean by the population being mostly rural until the mid 20th century. NONE of my family lived in an urban area until 1954 or 55. that lasted all of 10 years, when we moved out to a rural area just outside the city where we could farm, and THAT lasted all of 10 years when we finally moved back to the relative wilderness. I grew up farming.

they were pretty independent. That is how things could and should go back to being.

I agree. Farming and hunting is what fed me. Anything that we needed that we could make ourselves, we did. I learned how to blacksmith at 14. My dad made our stove, which heated the house, and the fuel came out of the woods - dragged out by horses, or sometimes just me. I cut it, split it, stacked it, and burned it. I can tell you first hand that doing it that way will warm you up 3 times, only the last of which is when you actually stack it in the fire. Dad always insisted that we learn to do whatever we could on our own, and to that end he taught us how to do it - with a tractor, with horse, or on our own if neither tractors nor horses were available.

He taught us to hunt with whatever was available. I have actually hunted with nothing more than rocks which I picked up on the spot, and been successful. He taught us how to build, and repair what was already built, ourselves.

Independence is a good thing, as far as I'm concerned. According to some here, it may have left me something less than completely sane, however, and most do not believe it when I tell how I grew up, but still, it gives me some insight into the truth of what you said there. I can't blame folks for not believing me - it's an entirely alien concept to people in developed nations these days, where most urban kids think steaks come from the grocery store, and nothing beyond that.

Big corporations worked hard to destroy the family farms and so our independence.

I can't say much about that, since I'm not on the farm any more. I don't know what they're doing in that regard, but I haven't heard anything along those lines from back home. I can say with a completely straight face, however, that they'll NEVER be able to keep me from feeding myself, as long as I'm still drawing breath. One thing I can fault them for is "sinking" my mom's well. From what I understand, a mining company - don't know if it was a coal company or a gas company, mom said coal, but it sounds more like gas to me - did something untoward that caused the water table to drop, and consequently a lot of wells around there were "sunk". It was a hell of a fight, I reckon, but they wound up re-drilling new wells for all the ones that were lost. I understand that gas "fracking" can do that sort of thing, but she insisted it was a coal mining company.

Wow!!!! do you seriously think the poor rob from the rich?????

Actually, no. that was rhetoric. What I DO believe is that government steals from the rich - and everyone else, too, but they seem to prefer preying on the rich for larger hauls - and use a portion of those ill-gotten gains to buy off the poor, keep them in servitude to the government, and thereby gain their support. While the poor don't directly steal from the rich, they don't usually refuse a cut of the haul, which makes them just as guilty as accessories. They seem not to realize that those funds are being used to keep them dependent on government, in servitude.

Or perhaps the bulk no longer even care.

I believe a fair tax system would mean people pay for the services they get from government, and under the free market preaching repub admins who created almost all of our huge fed gov deficit, almost all the services provided by government served the super rich, and worked against working class people.

I might be able to sign on for that plan, provided that one is able to refuse those services. Otherwise, it's no different from Guido and Nunzio dropping by to collect the weekly "insurance" payment. I prefer my plan - everyone pays their share, no one skates out through loopholes, government is kept to a manageable size and reasonable services, within the confines of what they collect. No government borrowing, no government debt used just to increase it's size, reach, and control.

If the fact that under repub admins, they refuse to protect our borders, allowing illegal immigrants to invade our country at will doesn't demonstrate this adequately, than 9/11 sure should have.

Whoa there! It's not just the Republican administrations that have utterly failed in border protection! I note that after 2 1/2 years of Obama, they are STILL not sealed, nor were they under Clinton, nor Carter, on back. Nossir, it's ALL of them failing us, not just the Republicans.

Matter of fact, I believe all the 9/11 assassins came in on Brother Clinton's watch.

With our current tax system, working peoples income taxes are being used to subsidize corporate operations, lowering the costs of corporate goods, or in otherwise, working people in the U.S. are subsidizing the exportation of their own jobs. That is plain wrong. That is how the rich are robbing the middle class of the U.S..

Which is why I was against the "stimulus" under both Bush and Obama. When there is willful malfeasance and mismanagement, there is no such thing as "too big to fail". If they can't swim, let 'em sink. It's a sure bet that neither government nor corporations would bother to roll you or I over if we were drowning in an inch of water in a ditch.

Inheritance taxes should definitely be used to tax the super wealthy. That is to get all the taxes they rightfully owe, that they managed to hide. Personally, I don't think people like Paris Hilton pay enough taxes.

I still believe in equal representation under the law. I can't justify taxing them at a higher rate than I am taxed at, or for things I would not be taxed for. Conversely, I don't think they should be allowed to weasel out of taxes through the loopholes.

I fully agree with you on capital gains taxes, as the current system exists, I see it as nothing but legalized gambling. The huge bite that the finance markets take out of our economy is criminal IMO, and the TPers sure don't want anything to be done about it. That ought to tell you exactly whose side they are really on.

It's that sort of thing which is at fault in wrecking the economy, in my opinion. Too many private speculators given too much control over the economy. I'm not talking about corporations here, I'm talking about the gamblers and speculators on Wall Street. Trading in commodity "futures" should be banned outright, and carry a stiff prison sentence. that allows far too much manipulation of pricing. I've not heard the Tea Party address that issue at all, one way or the other, so I don't know that they "don't want anything done about it" - it may be that they just haven't cleaned the government up yet, and so have not turned to such matters yet.

One thing is sure, though - had they got their way and eliminated government borrowing, there would have been a lot of folks on Wall Street crying real tears, watching their cash cow go dry. In my opinion, THAT is why it was not allowed, despite TP efforts. Seriously, what happens to the debt trading when the biggest debtor of all just stops borrowing at all, and pay off what it owes, down to -0- ?

In all my dealings the IRS, I have found them to be a decent organization, while all my dealing with banks, investment firms, and a large number of insurance companies, they have consistently demonstrated to me that they are crooks. If you have had similar experiences, why do you continue to blame the government for the crooked actions of private institutions.

I don't deal with banks or insurance companies at all, and never again will - regardless of the fact that the government is ordering me to. As a matter of fact, those orders to buy insurance are a large part of my current gripe against government. It is nothing more than another example of the government guaranteeing an income to those who are eating us up from within - the parasites. I don't blame the government for the actions of the institutions, I blame the government for their own complicity in those actions.

Um, a drivers license is a state requirement, not a fed gov requirement.

Ever heard of "Real ID"?

The fed gov should not regulate peoples lives, except when it involves activities that cross state borders. For example, if someone kidnaps someone else in one state, and drives them to another, then the fed gov should step in and do some regulating, or in otherwise, enforcement of the law.

Actually, I see the "individual mandate" as a big fat bite out my my ass in a regulatory manner. MY ass. ME. As an individual. I count that as "regulating people's lives", and am in agreement that the federal government should stay within the boundaries set for it constitutionally - regulating disputes between states, and commerce that actually takes place across state lines, rather than misuse of the Commerce Clause to regulate things that "might", someday, affect something some where in another state, especially when it plainly won't. There have been a lot of examples of that sort of abuse.

IMO, the state, county, and city governments are the ones who do most of abuse against individual rights, and our fed government does not do enough to protect people against the abuses heaped by local governments.

That's not the federal government's place, nor it's mandate. That responsibility lies with the people of that state. As a matter of fact, the feds are facilitating that by funding state and local police forces, to enforce those abuses and facilitate them. that isn't a federal responsibility or mandate, either.

It is my opinion that corporations have managed gain too much control over our political process through the con job of the free market, and phony baloney organizations like the TPers who only pretend to be against gov corruption, when they are complete for the lobbyists and corruption of the process.

Which lobbyists are they for? have you got any concrete examples of that? It would be especially helpful if you could point out any exclusive to the TP, which the other, entrenched, politicians aren't dealing with. As near as I can tell, the Tea Party folks are probably the least tainted by lobbyists and corruption, although I'm sure that will change if they stay in DC long enough.

You might want to consider that you live in the best country in the world, like most people on this planet. Then yo9u might want to consider that the quality of our government is the biggest factor.

"Size" does not translate to "quality". As a matter of fact, all of the most repressive governments in history have had size on their side.

Those who seek to undermine the U.S. government, like the TPers, are not looking out for your best interest.

Depends on how and what parts they undermine. There are just plain a lot of federal agencies in place that serve no useful purpose. It could stand some pruning back.

The TPers are exactly like the Bu#es/Reaganites, free market, Mises, communist preaching, elites who seek to destroy the U.S. government and enslave us.

Yeah, that's why I had to hyphenate "Bush-ites". I'm not sure what a "Mise" is, but I don't equate Reaganites with Bush-ites. World of difference there. As I said above, the U.S. government could stand a bit of destruction, just as a controlled fire clears out the weeds and underbrush. I wouldn't want to eliminate it altogether, and have seen no evidence that the TP DOES want that, despite the rhetoric that flies.

Speaking of rhetoric, Maxine Waters' recent comments have all but convinced me to throw my lot in with the Tea Party. I have never caught her being on the correct side of any issue, and if she feels THAT strongly about the TP, and fears them THAT much, then obviously she thinks they are a threat to her agenda, which makes them natural allies of folks who prefer freedom. You might want to have a word with her about that, before she drives more folks that way.

I want a party that supports making the super rich pay their fair share, because they certainly do not, and start protecting our borders, and enforcing laws against white collar crime, writing trade agreements that represent the interests of the people of the U.S. over the interests ICs and therefore elites. That is what we need.

I think we are in agreement as to the goal, we just differ in how to best accomplish that.

I agree with you on freedom, I just think cars and women are worth the cost benefit ratio.

I've probably just dealt with the wrong kind of cars and hung out with the wrong sort of women...

I had a look at that thread, but it's beyond me, and grown too far for me to catch up anyhow.

So much for keeping it brief!

reply to post by nenothtu

I might be misinformed now, since I don't travel much any more.

Yeah, well that is very true. I don't know where people are eating dirt in the U.S. as food, and I have done a good deal of traveling out there, but compared to the rest of the world, the U.S. is doing awesome.

While the hardware for most computers is made overseas, that is not where the money is, the money is in developing the technology, and that is still done here in the U.S.. You should look at how well Apple is doing these days. The desk top is old technology, the hardware is old technology, and the people advancing that old technology are still here in the U.S., but that isn't where the money is. The new computers are celphones, even laptops are old tech. Making cars is a lot more profitable than home electronics, and a great deal of that is done here in the U.S., even European cars. Yes, U.S. automakers are moving to Mexico, and loosing because of it, while the Japanese are Europeans are building more cars in the U.S., and then of course there are the bigger ticket, more profitable manufacturing, like tractors, still done here in the U.S..

Anything that we needed that we could make ourselves, we did.

And we are even more capable of doing just that with higher tech these days. It is all being suppressed by the ICs.

We don't need to ICs to build infrastructure or our economy. There money is phony money, we have our own money, but through the con of the free market they have been succeeding in stopping this.

What I DO believe is that government steals from the rich[/quot]

How is it that the government stealing the money is buried and debt, while the fortunes of the rich have increased ten fold?

Actually, it is the rich who steal from the government, and U.S. taxpayers.

Look up U.S. GDP, production per worker, debt in respect to other countries, where we make our money. I know this stuff, I have done my homework long ago. Look this stuff up, and see what is really going on.

If you looked up the facts, you would know that Obama has done a great deal to reduce illegal immigration, and so did Clinton. Stop listening to those right wing radio talk show propagandists. .

had they got their way and eliminated government borrowing,

If you mean the TPers, then you should consider that they have no desire to cut government borrowing. They are blowing smoke up you hindquarters.

Yeah, it is the federal governments main job to protect our rights from state and local abuse. It is clearly written in the constitution.

It is the quality of our fed gov that makes all the difference, not the quantity, and once again, the repubs/tpers are the ones who have increased the size of the fed gov.

Out of time, got to pay attention to mah woman. Do some research, there are so many facts you are missing.

I can't name exact sources sorry but I assure you that the 'Tea Party' is not a normal grassroots organization. Nor was its beginnings co-oped by billionaries nor was its 'infiltration' successful as would normally occur.

While it may seem strange to you, the truth is that the organization was influenced by a higher group for it to begin as a cautious, peaceful, and legal challenge to certain powers. The organization was founded by spreading knowledge and information, the group chose itself to call it the 'Tea Party' which personally i find it to be an unpleasant name.

Originally posted by poet1b

Yeah, well that is very true. I don't know where people are eating dirt in the U.S. as food, and I have done a good deal of traveling out there, but compared to the rest of the world, the U.S. is doing awesome.

I probably didn't state that clearly. It wasn't in the US, it was in Haiti.

While the hardware for most computers is made overseas, that is not where the money is, the money is in developing the technology, and that is still done here in the U.S.. You should look at how well Apple is doing these days. The desk top is old technology, the hardware is old technology, and the people advancing that old technology are still here in the U.S., but that isn't where the money is. The new computers are celphones, even laptops are old tech.

I don't deal with Apple, so you may be right that they're making money hand over fist, and I don't know it. What I do know is that they are probably the greediest corporation I've ever had the misfortune of dealing with, and they produce an inferior product, which they try to protect with proprietary maneuverings. Once you buy something, you shouldn't have to keep on buying it. Some sleazy software companies run that sort of business model, but Apple appears to be perfecting it for hardware, too.

Cellphones may be the wave of the future, but they are still far from capable of doing the things real computers will do. I find mine to be most useful for making phone calls, and not much else. when I go to doing serious computing, I use a serious computer.

Just out of curiosity, how is money to be made in "developing technology" if no one BUYS that technology? Therefore, unless shown otherwise, I still have to presume that the money results from purchase of manufactured tech. Anything else would appear to be voodoo economics, pulling money from where none exists.

Making cars is a lot more profitable than home electronics, and a great deal of that is done here in the U.S., even European cars. Yes, U.S. automakers are moving to Mexico, and loosing because of it, while the Japanese are Europeans are building more cars in the U.S., and then of course there are the bigger ticket, more profitable manufacturing, like tractors, still done here in the U.S..

Using the fact that foreign corporations are more successful here than American ones may not be the best way to convince me that America is still a player in the manufacturing sector... nor is it the way to convince Americans that international corporations (which I presume you mean by "IC's") are bad things. Who will employ them if all their own companies go overseas for labor? Foreigners, it appears...

Anything that we needed that we could make ourselves, we did.

And we are even more capable of doing just that with higher tech these days. It is all being suppressed by the ICs.

I'd be interesting in finding out just how an IC expects to prevent me from making what I need... They've missed the boat in that endeavor so far.

We don't need to ICs to build infrastructure or our economy. There money is phony money, we have our own money, but through the con of the free market they have been succeeding in stopping this.

So what's the plan for having an unorganized group of individuals just spontaneously start building and maintaining that infrastructure unpaid? When can they get started? The sooner they start, the sooner we can start taking advantage of that free stuff.

How is it that the government stealing the money is buried and debt, while the fortunes of the rich have increased ten fold?

Because rich folks stay rich by hanging on to their money. Government robs us and spends it like Valley Girls at the mall, with the expectation that they can just rob us some more if they run short. Unfortunately, they are far better at wasting money than they are at robbing folks (not that we even have enough to cover their profligate spending habits even if they managed to take it all), so they then go to see the loan sharks.That's how debt works - you spend more than you make, and go to the loan sharks to make up the difference, then continue the cycle.

Being married to a spendthrift is grounds for divorce in North Carolina. Would that it was grounds for divorce from a government gone wild.

Actually, it is the rich who steal from the government, and U.S. taxpayers.

well I can't argue with that at all, but it in no way negates government theft, it only takes advantage of it.

Look up U.S. GDP, production per worker, debt in respect to other countries, where we make our money. I know this stuff, I have done my homework long ago. Look this stuff up, and see what is really going on.

I'll do that when I get the time. Until then, I'll be convinced as I am now. I can honestly say that I don't care about debt in other countries, since I'm not going to be paying on their debt. US debt is what concerns me, not foreign countries debts. Comparing our debt to theirs is meaningless, since that will do nothing to get rid of our debt, which ought to be of more concern than what foreigners owe. Of course, if any of that money is owed to the US, then repayment would be appreciated, so we can get to work on our own debt...

If you looked up the facts, you would know that Obama has done a great deal to reduce illegal immigration, and so did Clinton.

In both cases, that "great deal" they've done to reduce illegal immigration appears to have been merely to redefine it as all legal, anything goes. I've yet to see any honest increase in enforcement effort. Instead, they seek to make as much "illegal" immigration "legal" as possible. Now, to be honest, redefining what is "legal" is one way to reduce what is "illegal", so you may have a point there. If I rename everything in my inventory as "widgets" instead of the old name of "thingamabobs", I can completely change what I have stored in the warehouse, without moving a single item!

Now, to add insult to injury, Obama's administration is just going ahead and arming the worst elements. Good job there! Make 'em legal and give 'em weapons! Before long, White America can get a taste of what they delivered to Red America. I have my own notions on the illegal alien colonization of America that closely parallels events of from 400 to 100 years ago. This probably isn't the thread to expound upon it, but didn't white folks start out here as small, isolated colonies, too? See how that went?

FEMA camps are just reservations under construction for white folks

Stop listening to those right wing radio talk show propagandists.

Again, WHICH "right wing radio talk show propagandists" am I listening to? I catch Alan Colmes occasionally, for maybe 15 minutes at a time, but he really doesn't sound all that far to the right to me.

If you mean the TPers, then you should consider that they have no desire to cut government borrowing. They are blowing smoke up you hindquarters.

Maybe. We may never know, since they didn't get what they claimed they wanted, and the debt ceiling got raised in spite of the ruckus. If they're not actually for what they claim to be for, why are folks using what they claim to be for as talking points in an attempt to demonize them?

Yeah, it is the federal governments main job to protect our rights from state and local abuse. It is clearly written in the constitution.

I'm gonna need chapter and verse on that particular claim. It gives all appearances of negating state and local government in favor of federal if that is the federal government's "main" purpose. Why bother with them at all then?

It is the quality of our fed gov that makes all the difference, not the quantity, and once again, the repubs/tpers are the ones who have increased the size of the fed gov.

Neocons, yes. Democrats, yes. Republicans and Tea Partiers, no. I'm assuming here that you are including Bush as a "Republican" which he claims, rather than the neocon he is, and so am willing to make allowances to a certain extent, but not so far as to let the Democrats off the hook for what they have done, nor so far as to include the Tea Party for what they haven't yet had opportunity to even attempt, much less demonstrate or even articulate a desire for.

I've said it probably thousands of times, but it bears repeating - "neocons" are neither new nor conservative. They are nothing more than Democrats trying to sneak in under the radar, which is how they earned the title of "RINOs". Not all of us have been fooled by their antics.

reply to post by Starwise
[IText Greenmore]
Food is a tangible.Unless it is deteriorating,it is still there.Canned goods are my favorite.Dry is good to if you have water.My Dad in Florida grew pintos out of a bag of dollar store dried.They popped right up and were way cheaper than the seed store.The Tea party is undemocratic?That is stupid as hell.Raising foreign debt to a system that never should have been created,that's undemocratic.I'm not a Tea Partier.Don't blame me for the dollar,I'm a Ron Pauler.This guy is either a spy or new at politics.

I wouldn't call myself a tea partier, all this hate against them is getting out of hand..

Why must everyone attack a movement that is FOR THE CONSTITUTION!!

This is like attacking Ron Paul, it gets worse and worse..

reply to post by dakota1s2

The "tea party" is exactly democratic. They are just a bunch of average people, mostly middle america group who see
this country headed in the wrong direction.

And then they decided to hit the gas for it to keep going in that wrong direction?

They voted, democratically, to change that direction. What about all of the groups that support your leftist agenda.

See, here's the problem with partisan politics, when you are in the extreme right, everyone looks leftist to you. (including the independents) and when you are on the left, everyone looks "Rightist" to you. (including the independents). So, in essence, when you take an extreme approach and accuse the other side of playing partisan politics, aren't you just as guilty of those same partisan politics?

Example Media Matters, anything to do with George Soros and all of his groups that throw money, rallying the troups trying to change our country.

And Rupert Murdoch does the same thing with FOX News and his many other conservative media outlets.

Why is it when you lefties don't agree with people it always comes to name bashing and whinning about being un-american. What's really bad for our country is the ignorant who blindly follow the mind mindset of Soros, Obama, Reid and Pelosi

Isn't that what you just did too?

reply to post by nenothtu

Just out of curiosity, how is money to be made in "developing technology" if no one BUYS that technology?

Come on bro, you are working far too hard to ignore what I am posting.

No money is made in developing technology that no one buys. Fortunately for the U.S., we make tech that everyone wants to buy, whether or not you like Apple.

People produce two kinds of assets, labor and ideas, and the U.S. produces those assets in spades, primarily because we have more freedoms and opportunities. That is what creates our enormous prosperity, how hard working our people are, and how innovative they are.

The "valley girls" are daughters of the super rich.

Read the declaration of Independence to find the purpose of the fed gov. That is why fed courts have jurisdiction over state courts.

Everyone who believes in free markets is a neocon. Including Reagan.

reply to post by inforeal

I assume by abusing their power you must be referring to the reluctance of the republican Congress to pass the debt ceiling increase,although I am not sure,you kind of ramble incoherently.The debt in question is one that should never be increased in any circumstance.It also never should have been created in the first place.It was passed and we are now deeper in trouble than we can imagine and it will take a miracle(like 60% of American voters reading a book that explains why the federal Reserve is the main cause of inflation in the last 100 years).That miracle is already here and his name is Ron Paul.

Originally posted by Kitilani

Originally posted by tangonine
It's really that simple. Sesame Street simple.

edit on 18-8-2011 by tangonine because: (no reason given)

It really is not that simple. Not even remotely. Unless you go and by your own deserted island and build your own society, it is really very complicated.

I tend to disagree, since when in history do people expect others to look after them?

Based upon many posts in ATS from the liberal side of things, you feel society is obligated to make sure everyone succeeds. Hate to break it to some of you, but life is hard, and there are no guarantees in success.

The more government steps in the way, the more corrupt things get.