Population control Isn't it about time?

Originally posted by Maslo
You should have rights only for things which do not negatively affect another, third person (except things required for survival, thats the only situation which justifies harming others).

Procreating does not negatively affect you, and if it does, it's through the very institution you're promoting to govern procreation.

reply to post by imherejusttoread

Procreating does not negatively affect you, and if it does, it's through the very institution you're promoting to govern procreation.

Procreating while you are unable to provide for your childrens needs negatively affects either the taxpayers, when there is child welfare, or the children themselves, when there is no child welfare to help them. In both cases, someone is harmed by irresponsible or reckless procreation.

Originally posted by Maslo
Procreating while you are unable to provide for your childrens needs negatively affects either the taxpayers, when there is child welfare, or the children themselves, when there is no child welfare to help them. In both cases, someone is harmed by irresponsible or reckless procreation.

I think your objection is more so with the welfare/tax system, which is implicated through governance, then it is with procreation itself. If there's no tax system, then there is no child welfare or government system to collect taxes to pay for that child, therefore the procreation neither picks your pocket nor breaks your leg. Neither is public welfare necessary to support children; there are many private charities/hospitals that do it for the good of the child irregardless of the parents' participating (or lack of) role.

Originally posted by imherejusttoreadI think your objection is more so with the welfare/tax system, which is implicated through governance, then it is with procreation itself. If there's no tax system, then there is no child welfare or government system to collect taxes to pay for that child, therefore the procreation neither picks your pocket nor breaks your leg.

The problem is that we have for so long now taken the role of the indulgent and understanding parent who mitigates on a regular basis the poor decisions of our children without the opposite and equally important role of the rule/boundary setting parent who imposes limits on children who demonstrate the inability to solve their own problems. A family with only the former would soon be bankrupt both morally and financially – as are we fast becoming as a nation.

Individuals that grow up on welfare and with handouts tend to reproduce early and create yet more offspring to feed the cycle. As for racial advantage or affirmative action; how many generations have milked it with no change (Perhaps even making the situation worse statistically as far as success goes if you consider crime, employment, welfare, out of wedlock births and incarceration rates as a measure of it!) Aren’t we seeing the pattern here?

I am not a religious person but the “give a man a fish thing” rings so true…

Other people’s children are not my problem it is not my responsibility to feed them just like it is not for some third party be it an individual or government to limit my access to resources or take my wealth to do so. If I want to give to a charity, I will give to one that solves problems not creates more of them. I am all for helping the helpless; however, helping the lazy and clueless is something else altogether.

If we did not sustain these individuals with aid and just let nature take its course the problem would never have surfaced in the first place.

A struggling and hungry heard in nature cannot reproduce quickly. It may sound harsh and cruel and unfair but life is all of those things.

The key to the issue of resource scarcity (that and some quest for “equality” are the root of all our issues) is the opposite of intervention IMO it is the absence of it so people will have to suffer the consequences of their poor choices. Perhaps if people had to suffer watching their offspring die horribly they would no longer produce more than they can sustain.

We all know where babies come from and to create more than one can provide for with his/her own access to resources is the most selfish and inhumane act I can fathom. If one does not have enough resources to satisfy their own needs then they need to be, either smart enough, driven enough or violent enough (likely all three) to procure them or one will die – it’s fairly simple.

That applies to the individual, a family group, a village, a city, nation or the world itself. We (all of those groups) are not created equal and to try and create equality force it through some arbitrary desire for the common good is actually a horrible force for evolution of the species.

Not all people (or groups of people) are as intelligent, physically gifted or driven to excel. If we were there would be no words for excellence – there can be only one valedictorian, one winner etc. Our society is engineering competition out of our young…

Likewise not all people are graced with a favorable geography at birth – some places are harsh and should have low populations. Yet, we provide aid and in so doing make life more bearable and the cycle starts over with procreation early and often in the same groups.

Compassion is good, charity is nice but to do it to the point we are not only sustaining and indefinitely supporting the weak, stupid and the lazy we are doing so without imposing any sort of restrictions. Why should people on welfare/public support be able to reproduce and not only that be rewarded for it with more money at the expense of the others?

Supporting the weak and lazy at the expense of the driven and strong is antithetical to nature and why we are in the current predicament.

Nature is a powerful force and once we reach the tipping point the earth will cull the human population to the correct size (this is likely closer than we think)– in the interim some will thrive some will wither and suffer…its simply nature.

Again, many think me cruel for this view; however, in the end it is nature in action and there is in my opinion nothing more perfect than nature and its own ability to manage and regulate its resources.

Leave people to suffer the consequences of their own actions or they will not change the behavior! We cannot afford to continue down this road!

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by lifecitizen

 

I can understand why in some countries- usually very poor ones, the people keep having children that they cant feed but theres no excuse for the same in the western world.

I have the opposite opinion.

It is in these poor countries where population control is needed, they are the ones that cannot feed themselves and their procreation only serves to perpetuate and increase their suffering.

Perhaps. But why is it your problem if you are not one of those in the countries with a "population problem"?

In western world we should have more children, because many nations are already dying out, we can actually afford it, and it is these children that will be the future scientists and productive people with access to education and resources, pushing humanity further.

edit on 29/7/11 by Maslo because: (no reason given)

So unless you, with your limited imagination, can find how others can "afford" to have more children, you would like to control their population.

Yup exactly the kind of person the humanity needs to decide what its future should be

Originally posted by Golf66
Yep, sure do - I want to live and enjoy all the fruits of my own labor without having them confiscated and redistributed "for the sake of" some other person’s children that they created without the means or ability to support.

I contend if a person needs to sponge money off other people to provide for their children then the same government that forcibly steals that money from others to give the support can and should forcibly restrict their access to continue the practice until they demonstrate the means or ability to support more offspring absent intervention.

Indulging the idiots who have children they can't support with benefits and support without demanding they stop procreating only enables them to propagate the cycle further.

This is true at the international, national, state, local and even individual level.

It does not apply at international level because no country that cannot feed its population is in any position to "sponge" others for it. It is actually the reverse: countries that cannot support the growing demands of their populations, but have built huge arsenals of weapons go round murdering those that have much less than them in order to support their "way of life"! Some definition of "civilisation" for sure!

reply to post by Observor

Perhaps. But why is it your problem if you are not one of those in the countries with a "population problem"?

It is not my problem. But that does not mean I dont care at all, or dont have any ideas to help them. Not caring unless it is "your problem" is the root of many evils in this world.

So unless you, with your limited imagination, can find how others can "afford" to have more children, you would like to control their population. Yup exactly the kind of person the humanity needs to decide what its future should be

Yes, exactly.

reply to post by imherejusttoread

I think your objection is more so with the welfare/tax system, which is implicated through governance, then it is with procreation itself. If there's no tax system, then there is no child welfare or government system to collect taxes to pay for that child, therefore the procreation neither picks your pocket nor breaks your leg. Neither is public welfare necessary to support children; there are many private charities/hospitals that do it for the good of the child irregardless of the parents' participating (or lack of) role.

I dont believe children will be taken care of properly without any government welfare. My objection is against reproduction anarchy, not welfare systems.

Originally posted by Maslo
It is not my problem. But that does not mean I dont care at all, or dont have any ideas to help them. Not caring unless it is "your problem" is the root of many evils in this world.

Bandits masquerading as "concerned" people! Quite original for sure

Of course, considering where the centuries of "concern" from Westerners has brought most of the world, others may ask you not to be too "concerned" about their well-being. But that, of course, would fall on deaf ears for sure. After all without Europeans "concern" for the welfare of the native Americans or Australian aborigines where would they be? Also the abiding "concern" of Westerners for the "well-being" of Iraqis sure has made an impression on the rest of the world.

I sometimes wonder if Westerners are simply incapable of being honest or they actually believe the garbage they spout. Whatever the case surely a unique species that needs to be preserved, although in far fewer numbers than are roaming the planet today.

reply to post by Observor

Of course, considering where the centuries of "concern" from Westerners has brought most of the world, others may ask you not to be too "concerned" about their well-being.

Your hate against the west is ridiculous. Yes there were mistakes, but still the average quality of life in the developing and third world is higher than ever before. All thanks to the western civilisation.

After all without Europeans "concern" for the welfare of the native Americans or Australian aborigines where would they be?

Probably still killing themselves over petty tribal differences and dying of curable diseases like they were for thousands of years without the west.

I sometimes wonder if Westerners are simply incapable of being honest or they actually believe the garbage they spout.

Yeah I understand, its now modern and politically correct to blame all the worlds problems on the evil west. I acknowledge west is not perfect, but overall its a positive force in this world. So we have full right to criticise the others, especially for mistakes which would be obvious to any rational Observor - such as lack of reproductive responsibility in the third world.

Originally posted by Maslo
Your hate against the west is ridiculous. Yes there were mistakes, but still the average quality of life in the developing and third world is higher than ever before. All thanks to the western civilisation.

Amusing! Wiping out whole populations was a "mistake"? Yeah, sure you could wipe out everyone else but your own kind and then claim what a "magnificient" world you created!

Probably still killing themselves over petty tribal differences and dying of curable diseases like they were for thousands of years without the west.

Just as I expected. Wipe out populations and then claim you did a favour by the rest.

Yeah I understand, its now modern and politically correct to blame all the worlds problems on the evil west. I acknowledge west is not perfect, but overall its a positive force in this world. So we have full right to criticise the others, especially for mistakes which would be obvious to any rational Observor - such as lack of reproductive responsibility in the third world.

When the garbage of the world was reproducing like rabbits to expand from one continent to fill three continents they were doing the world a favour and now the third world people are being reproductively "irresponsible"? Yes, by the Westerners' logic they are "irresponsible" because they have not developed techonologies that can wipe the Westerners' out and occupy those lands and grab those resources

When you learn to live like humans, respecting others' lives and property, you may perhaps be in a position to criticise others. But as long as you live like the bandit scum that you have always been, you impress only your fellow bandit garbage, not any self-respecting humans.

Edit: By the way you are very good with "ideas" like smallpox blankets that you distribute out of "concern". Nobody expects you to be different, but others are a little wiser now than earlier. So you can keep convincing yourselves what a great boon to the rest of the world you are, but fewer and fewer people buy it as time progresses. So you may as well dispense with your pretentions. But I suspect you actually believe that garbage you dish out.

reply to post by Observor

Amusing! Wiping out whole populations was a "mistake"? Yeah, sure you could wipe out everyone else but your own kind and then claim what a "magnificient" world you created!

The facts stand clearly: quality of life in the former colony countries is far higher than it was before the western colonisation.
Yes there were evils, both mistakes and intentional wrongdoings. But still the overall effect of western influence was beneficial for the third world civilisations.

www.deathreference.com...

Life expectancy at birth by world region, 1950–2000
Less Developed Countries 41 48 55 59 62 64
Africa 38 42 46 49 53 54
Asia 41 48 56 60 65 66
Latin America (and Caribbean) 51 57 61 65 69 70

Just as I expected. Wipe out populations and then claim you did a favour by the rest.

Yes we DID a great favour by the rest. Now if you think the benefits provided by westerners havent outweighted the colonisation killings over the centuries, you are free to do so. I think otherwise.

And some wiping out was beneficial for humanity - twisted cultures which practice human sacrifices en masse should be dealth with by any means necessary.

When the garbage of the world was reproducing like rabbits to expand from one continent to fill three continents they were doing the world a favour and now the third world people are being reproductively "irresponsible"? Yes, by the Westerners' logic they are "irresponsible" because they have not developed techonologies that can wipe the Westerners' out and occupy those lands and grab those resources

Yes thats exactly the case:
Its beneficial for the progress of humanity if less developed civilisation and its land gets taken over and assimilated by far more developed civilisation.
Its detrimental for the progress of humanity if more developed civilisation and its land gets taken over and assimilated by far less developed civilisation.

When you learn to live like humans, respecting others' lives and property, you may perhaps be in a position to criticise others.

Colonisation days are long gone, and we have already learned to respect others' lives and property, even when I acknowlegde we have not, in the past.

So by your own words now, in 21.st century, we ARE in position to criticise others.

Originally posted by Maslo
But still the overall effect of western influence was beneficial for the third world civilisations.

When a person is afflicted with a disease and survives it, he/she also develops an immunity for that disease as well as many others i.e, stronger after being infected. Is that the "favour" done by the bacterium that initially infected the person? I guess, the bacterium itself might think so

And some wiping out was beneficial for humanity - twisted cultures which practice human sacrifices en masse should be dealth with by any means necessary.

This gem is followed by another.

Yes thats exactly the case:
Its beneficial for the progress of humanity if less developed civilisation and its land gets taken over and assimilated by far more developed civilisation.
Its detrimental for the progress of humanity if more developed civilisation and its land gets taken over and assimilated by far less developed civilisation.

So when Westerners murder others to take over their land and resources it is progress of humanity and if some tribes practice ritual muder they are "twisted cultures that should be put to death by any means"?

I don't even need to reply to such gems.

Colonisation days are long gone, and we have already learned to respect others' lives and property, even when I acknowlegde we have not, in the past.

So by your own words now, in 21.st century, we ARE in position to criticise others.

Westerners respecting others' lives and property? Like the Iraqis' perhaps?

Edit: By the way, humans are much more than animals. Of course, you would need to be a human to understand that. So when the "strong" murder and plunder the "weak" it is not progress for humanity. Anyway if you believe that is "progress" why do you have laws against murder and banditry in your "civilisation"?

reply to post by Observor

When a person is afflicted with a disease and survives it, he/she also develops an immunity for that disease as well as many others i.e, stronger after being infected. Is that the "favour" done by the bacterium that initially infected the person? I guess, the bacterium itself might think so

Small pox blankets? You mean what westerners did to other westerners?

So when Westerners murder others to take over their land and resources it is progress of humanity and if some tribes practice ritual muder they are "twisted cultures that should be put to death by any means"?

You mean like when Alexander the Great took over the known world, or when Genghis Khan did the same? What the hell is your point for thousands of years that Animal called Humans have been taking turns fighting and ruling the world. East, West, North, South just points on a compass. When you get out of that very narrow anti-US, UK mind set you will find that ever country in the world has at one time or another taken over the known world and did horrible things... ITS CALLED HISTORY

Westerners respecting others' lives and property? Like the Iraqis' perhaps?

Edit: By the way, humans are much more than animals. Of course, you would need to be a human to understand that. So when the "strong" murder and plunder the "weak" it is not progress for humanity. Anyway if you believe that is "progress" why do you have laws against murder and banditry in your "civilisation"?

Once again, WE ARE ANIMALS just because you think we are not does not make it so. You would need to be human which are mammals to understand that. The "Strong" have always took advantage of the "Weak" its the same in nature. Yes it is progress for humanity because its in Human nature to do so. It hasn't changed since way before civilization even became a concept for early man.

Don't let your Hate cloud your mind man, When you realize that we are all the same really. The only thing that does separate us is tech and weapons. I.E the "Strong" taking over the "Weak" It will continue on like this until the next contender knocks the current ones down.

History repeats it self, When you realize this than you will know that man is really an animal nothing more or less

Originally posted by Reaper2137
reply to post by Observor

 

When a person is afflicted with a disease and survives it, he/she also develops an immunity for that disease as well as many others i.e, stronger after being infected. Is that the "favour" done by the bacterium that initially infected the person? I guess, the bacterium itself might think so

Small pox blankets? You mean what westerners did to other westerners?

What I posted was an analogy in response to a claim of "favours" done by the West to the rest. I was likening the "favours" to the increased immunity after falling sick and recovering which is entirely the credit of the person that has fallen sick and recovered and not the bacterium that initially infected the person.

But since I did mention smallpox blankets elsewhere, I will respond to your observation. The "West" in the Westerner is not a direction West of something.. It refers to a member of the "Western Civilisation". I go with Samuel Huntington's identification of what countries today form this "civilisation" (which includes Australia and New Zealand as well but doesn't include South America). Quite evidently the native Americans were/are not part of this "civilisation" that distributed smallpox blankets. So it is not what Westerners did to other Westerners, but what they did to the rest.

So when Westerners murder others to take over their land and resources it is progress of humanity and if some tribes practice ritual muder they are "twisted cultures that should be put to death by any means"?

You mean like when Alexander the Great took over the known world, or when Genghis Khan did the same? What the hell is your point for thousands of years that Animal called Humans have been taking turns fighting and ruling the world. East, West, North, South just points on a compass. When you get out of that very narrow anti-US, UK mind set you will find that ever country in the world has at one time or another taken over the known world and did horrible things... ITS CALLED HISTORY

I don't know that the Macedonian and the Mongolian claimed that they did what they did for the "progress of humanity"? Care to point out where they did that?

Yeah, sure the world has seen many murderers and bandits in the past and probably will in future too. Even deception has been employed during warfare, but dishonesty as a rule of existsence is unique to the "Western Civilisation" and I am pointing it out.

If you had the courage to openly admit your goals, as did Alexander or Genghis, you probably would be feared, but not hated. We could admit although you are bandits, at least you had honour, a human quality, and could probably one day become fully human.

Westerners respecting others' lives and property? Like the Iraqis' perhaps?

Edit: By the way, humans are much more than animals. Of course, you would need to be a human to understand that. So when the "strong" murder and plunder the "weak" it is not progress for humanity. Anyway if you believe that is "progress" why do you have laws against murder and banditry in your "civilisation"?

Once again, WE ARE ANIMALS just because you think we are not does not make it so. You would need to be human which are mammals to understand that. The "Strong" have always took advantage of the "Weak" its the same in nature. Yes it is progress for humanity because its in Human nature to do so. It hasn't changed since way before civilization even became a concept for early man.

Don't let your Hate cloud your mind man, When you realize that we are all the same really. The only thing that does separate us is tech and weapons. I.E the "Strong" taking over the "Weak" It will continue on like this until the next contender knocks the current ones down.

History repeats it self, When you realize this than you will know that man is really an animal nothing more or less

edit on 3-8-2011 by Reaper2137 because: (no reason given)

I am with you when you say you are animals. Yes, you are nothing more than primates blessed with intellect. And there are many such primates in the rest of the world too. But most of the rest of the world is not led by these intellectual primates, but by humans who are much more than intellectual primates. You won't know the difference, so it is quite understandable. You sure have made great efforts to reduce the rest of the world to your level, societies led by intellectual primates, but haven't quite succeeded. So when your "civilisation" implodes as it necessarily will and soon, the world is not going to be taken over by another society of intellectual primates because, the nations or groups of nations that are closest to replacing the West as dominant world players are led by humans and not intellectual primates.

But we certainly owe you thanks regarding one point: attracting most of the ambitious and capable intellectual primates away from the rest of the world and giving them sanctuary, so that their challenge to human leadership in the rest of the world is minimal when you collapse eventually and take those primates with you.

What I posted was an analogy in response to a claim of "favours" done by the West to the rest. I was likening the "favours" to the increased immunity after falling sick and recovering which is entirely the credit of the person that has fallen sick and recovered and not the bacterium that initially infected the person.

But since I did mention smallpox blankets elsewhere, I will respond to your observation. The "West" in the Westerner is not a direction West of something.. It refers to a member of the "Western Civilisation". I go with Samuel Huntington's identification of what countries today form this "civilisation" (which includes Australia and New Zealand as well but doesn't include South America). Quite evidently the native Americans were/are not part of this "civilisation" that distributed smallpox blankets. So it is not what Westerners did to other Westerners, but what they did to the rest.

You also miss that what "East" has done to other members of the "East" Its nothing new and they do the same thing the world over and have done it since the dawn of man. You can try and paint it any way you want but in the end we are all the same. In a few hundred years from now when every thing has collapsed, some one just like you will be railing on some one just like me. Its nothing new its been done before. In the end I am always right we are all the same regardless of were we come from.

I don't know that the Macedonian and the Mongolian claimed that they did what they did for the "progress of humanity"? Care to point out where they did that?

Yeah, sure the world has seen many murderers and bandits in the past and probably will in future too. Even deception has been employed during warfare, but dishonesty as a rule of existsence is unique to the "Western Civilisation" and I am pointing it out.

If you had the courage to openly admit your goals, as did Alexander or Genghis, you probably would be feared, but not hated. We could admit although you are bandits, at least you had honour, a human quality, and could probably one day become fully human.

rofl... Really? Do you not know much about either person? Alexander was a brutal liar and Genghis was the first person to use Bio-Warfare both were known for planing secret attacks and not telling people what they were doing until after it was done. History is history you can not bend it to your view. They also killed innocents as including women and children. What is this "if you" I do am not in charge of any thing as you are not in charge of any thing. Our leaders do state our goals your or on the other side so no matter what they say to you they are liars.

I am with you when you say you are animals. Yes, you are nothing more than primates blessed with intellect. And there are many such primates in the rest of the world too. But most of the rest of the world is not led by these intellectual primates, but by humans who are much more than intellectual primates. You won't know the difference, so it is quite understandable. You sure have made great efforts to reduce the rest of the world to your level, societies led by intellectual primates, but haven't quite succeeded. So when your "civilisation" implodes as it necessarily will and soon, the world is not going to be taken over by another society of intellectual primates because, the nations or groups of nations that are closest to replacing the West as dominant world players are led by humans and not intellectual primates.

But we certainly owe you thanks regarding one point: attracting most of the ambitious and capable intellectual primates away from the rest of the world and giving them sanctuary, so that their challenge to human leadership in the rest of the world is minimal when you collapse eventually and take those primates with you.

Your delusions of grandeur are just that delusions. You are an animal as well as any one else we are all the same. The same kind of people rule the world over. Is Russia part of the west? There people are still dragged away in the night, Raping and pillaging still go on their. China is the same, The middle east has the most disregard for women's rights. You can't cherry pick the best of any cultures and use them for your own self gain. The world over has its share of greedy and evil people. No country has the market cornered, I agree with you that the West will fall just like the east will and is falling now.

A new country will just take its place weather it be more brutal is what the men and women who make it to decide. No matter the part of the world the same the world over is being done the same way. When people reach the same level of prosperity as the West have, you will see the same kind of happenings. Make no mistake soon one day or even sooner. Some one just like your self will be railing against your country.

It was nice talking to a fellow animal, although you have delusions you still make some good points if not flawed. I also look forward to your response.

Originally posted by Reaper2137
You also miss that what "East" has done to other members of the "East" Its nothing new and they do the same thing the world over and have done it since the dawn of man. You can try and paint it any way you want but in the end we are all the same. In a few hundred years from now when every thing has collapsed, some one just like you will be railing on some one just like me. Its nothing new its been done before. In the end I am always right we are all the same regardless of were we come from.

First off, the opposite of "West" in this context is not East, because the "West" does not refer to a direction. But I always enjoy when Westerners who start from "we are superior" and have to come down to "we are all the same"

rofl... Really? Do you not know much about either person? Alexander was a brutal liar and Genghis was the first person to use Bio-Warfare both were known for planing secret attacks and not telling people what they were doing until after it was done. History is history you can not bend it to your view. They also killed innocents as including women and children.

The bandits of the past never hid their goals, whatever their "civilisation". Their execution methods were not open and that is understandably so.

What is this "if you" I do am not in charge of any thing as you are not in charge of any thing. Our leaders do state our goals your or on the other side so no matter what they say to you they are liars.

If your leaders stated their goals honestly we wouldn't have so much discussion, would we? If they simply stated, we intend to grab what we can in order to perpetuate our way of living, there is no room for discussion. But no, they have to pretend it is "fighting terrorism", "bringing freedom and democracy", "civilising the natives", "human rights" or whatever other garbage they can come up with.

You, as individuals, are no less disgusting (for humans, that is) in your dishonesty . Take for example this very thread that you started. If you had stated openly and honestly that the growing population of the non-Western world is threatening the way of life in the West because of increasing demand for the resources this growing population causes, that would have been honourable even if just as disgusting as the way you started it. But you simply can't. You have to pretend it is something about "humanity".

Your delusions of grandeur are just that delusions. You are an animal as well as any one else we are all the same

I don't believe I can convince a chimp that I am something different from it nor do I believe I can convince you that we are different from you. A chimp may think I am the same as another chimp and so can you.

The same kind of people rule the world over.

No, they don't.

Is Russia part of the west?

Most decidedly, not!

There people are still dragged away in the night, Raping and pillaging still go on their. China is the same, The middle east has the most disregard for women's rights. You can't cherry pick the best of any cultures and use them for your own self gain. The world over has its share of greedy and evil people. No country has the market cornered, I agree with you that the West will fall just like the east will and is falling now.

What really cracks me up how Westerners try to point out the internal failings of a human society as being the same as mudering and plundering others engaging themselves collectively. No we are not the same, but it takes a human to recognise the differences.

A new country will just take its place weather it be more brutal is what the men and women who make it to decide. No matter the part of the world the same the world over is being done the same way. When people reach the same level of prosperity as the West have, you will see the same kind of happenings. Make no mistake soon one day or even sooner. Some one just like your self will be railing against your country.

There have existed many human societies in the past that had great levels of prosperity and did not engage in banditry. But you would have to be human to recognise them.

It was nice talking to a fellow animal, although you have delusions you still make some good points if not flawed. I also look forward to your response.

It is actually quite satisfying to note that you have finally given up pretentions of being human. Hope your governments acquire the same courage soon and admit to it.

By the way, I am not engaging in this discussion to prove anything to you. It is just as likely that I will succeed in it as trying to teach a chimp qualities like honour, truthfulness etc. The target of my posts are humans, even if I seem to be engaging in a "discussion" with animals such as you.

First off, the opposite of "West" in this context is not East, because the "West" does not refer to a direction. But I always enjoy when Westerners who start from "we are superior" and have to come down to "we are all the same"

Never said any one was superior just putting into context what you keep cherry picking.

The bandits of the past never hid their goals, whatever their "civilisation". Their execution methods were not open and that is understandably so.

That is a good way of saying I have no Frakken Ideal but I'll B.S my way thru you have no ideal what your talking about. Once again your cherry picking history to fit your warped vision. Try reading history instead of making comments that show how ignorant you are. Thanks

If your leaders stated their goals honestly we wouldn't have so much discussion, would we? If they simply stated, we intend to grab what we can in order to perpetuate our way of living, there is no room for discussion. But no, they have to pretend it is "fighting terrorism", "bringing freedom and democracy", "civilising the natives", "human rights" or whatever other garbage they can come up with.

You, as individuals, are no less disgusting (for humans, that is) in your dishonesty . Take for example this very thread that you started. If you had stated openly and honestly that the growing population of the non-Western world is threatening the way of life in the West because of increasing demand for the resources this growing population causes, that would have been honourable even if just as disgusting as the way you started it. But you simply can't. You have to pretend it is something about "humanity".

We do you just don't listen or hear what you want to hear. Yes we still would be having this discussion because there would still be people who are against us. The "have not" people if we grab what we want in order to perpetuate that way we live how come every thing you people accuse us of stealing every thing is still just as much money as were you live?

This next part which is you labeling what every it is you think we do. I really don't understand you, maybe because its just fear based hate spewing out of you based on your ignorance. We have more than you so we had to have stolen it. I get it don't worry

The last part of this quote is crap, Its a whole world problem not just in the west. Although Africa wouldn't be getting hit so far if they would live within their limits that they can produce. I call it as it is just because you have to spew hate and ignorance doesn't change that fact. Also the fact you can't go a single paragraph with out a personal attack. Kettle pot, Pot Kettle.

I don't believe I can convince a chimp that I am something different from it nor do I believe I can convince you that we are different from you. A chimp may think I am the same as another chimp and so can you.

Nor can you convince a zealot that he is wrong. You are dressing your self up as some thing you are not. Your not better or worse. You may think that your better but you are not, I can also tell you that I put a-lot of you under my boot in Iraq before pulling the trigger.

No, they don't.

LOL... See this is again were you are cherry picking. All leaders are the same the world over the fact you refuse to see this is just plain ignorance. Sorry man hate to break your bubble but its true. History is your friend, I hate to break it to you but you have to either pick up a book and open it. Or look it up on line. History shows that I am right. So this is a mute point.

What really cracks me up how Westerners try to point out the internal failings of a human society as being the same as mudering and plundering others engaging themselves collectively. No we are not the same, but it takes a human to recognise the differences.

What really cracks me up is how you try and point out that it is different when it is the same. Potato, Potatto. lol.. Yes we are the same it would take some one of intelligence to grasp the concept. You can't cherry pick your any countries past to suit your agenda. Once again its called History look it up.

There have existed many human societies in the past that had great levels of prosperity and did not engage in banditry. But you would have to be human to recognise them.

Once again not true, Every Society has a bloody past. Just because your country's government has covered it up. Or you just are not educated enough to see that doesn't change the point.

It is actually quite satisfying to note that you have finally given up pretentions of being human. Hope your governments acquire the same courage soon and admit to it.

By the way, I am not engaging in this discussion to prove anything to you. It is just as likely that I will succeed in it as trying to teach a chimp qualities like honour, truthfulness etc. The target of my posts are humans, even if I seem to be engaging in a "discussion" with animals such as you.

Once again if you can give up your cherry picking and have a real answer instead of question dodging than this might go some were other wise this is just like your life a waste of time.

We are all humans and we are all animals if you can't

First off, the opposite of "West" in this context is not East, because the "West" does not refer to a direction. But I always enjoy when Westerners who start from "we are superior" and have to come down to "we are all the same"

Never said any one was superior just putting into context what you keep cherry picking.

The bandits of the past never hid their goals, whatever their "civilisation". Their execution methods were not open and that is understandably so.

That is a good way of saying I have no Frakken Ideal but I'll B.S my way thru you have no ideal what your talking about. Once again your cherry picking history to fit your warped vision. Try reading history instead of making comments that show how ignorant you are. Thanks

If your leaders stated their goals honestly we wouldn't have so much discussion, would we? If they simply stated, we intend to grab what we can in order to perpetuate our way of living, there is no room for discussion. But no, they have to pretend it is "fighting terrorism", "bringing freedom and democracy", "civilising the natives", "human rights" or whatever other garbage they can come up with.

You, as individuals, are no less disgusting (for humans, that is) in your dishonesty . Take for example this very thread that you started. If you had stated openly and honestly that the growing population of the non-Western world is threatening the way of life in the West because of increasing demand for the resources this growing population causes, that would have been honourable even if just as disgusting as the way you started it. But you simply can't. You have to pretend it is something about "humanity".

We do you just don't listen or hear what you want to hear. Yes we still would be having this discussion because there would still be people who are against us. The "have not" people if we grab what we want in order to perpetuate that way we live how come every thing you people accuse us of stealing every thing is still just as much money as were you live?

This next part which is you labeling what every it is you think we do. I really don't understand you, maybe because its just fear based hate spewing out of you based on your ignorance. We have more than you so we had to have stolen it. I get it don't worry

The last part of this quote is crap, Its a whole world problem not just in the west. Although Africa wouldn't be getting hit so far if they would live within their limits that they can produce. I call it as it is just because you have to spew hate and ignorance doesn't change that fact. Also the fact you can't go a single paragraph with out a personal attack. Kettle pot, Pot Kettle.

I don't believe I can convince a chimp that I am something different from it nor do I believe I can convince you that we are different from you. A chimp may think I am the same as another chimp and so can you.

Nor can you convince a zealot that he is wrong. You are dressing your self up as some thing you are not. Your not better or worse. You may think that your better but you are not, I can also tell you that I put a-lot of you under my boot in Iraq before pulling the trigger.

No, they don't.

LOL... See this is again were you are cherry picking. All leaders are the same the world over the fact you refuse to see this is just plain ignorance. Sorry man hate to break your bubble but its true. History is your friend, I hate to break it to you but you have to either pick up a book and open it. Or look it up on line. History shows that I am right. So this is a mute point.

What really cracks me up how Westerners try to point out the internal failings of a human society as being the same as mudering and plundering others engaging themselves collectively. No we are not the same, but it takes a human to recognise the differences.

What really cracks me up is how you try and point out that it is different when it is the same. Potato, Potatto. lol.. Yes we are the same it would take some one of intelligence to grasp the concept. You can't cherry pick your any countries past to suit your agenda. Once again its called History look it up.

There have existed many human societies in the past that had great levels of prosperity and did not engage in banditry. But you would have to be human to recognise them.

Once again not true, Every Society has a bloody past. Just because your country's government has covered it up. Or you just are not educated enough to see that doesn't change the point.

It is actually quite satisfying to note that you have finally given up pretentions of being human. Hope your governments acquire the same courage soon and admit to it.

By the way, I am not engaging in this discussion to prove anything to you. It is just as likely that I will succeed in it as trying to teach a chimp qualities like honour, truthfulness etc. The target of my posts are humans, even if I seem to be engaging in a "discussion" with animals such as you.

Once again if you can give up your cherry picking and have a real answer instead of question dodging than this might go some were other wise this is just like your life a waste of time.

We are all humans and we are all animals if you can't reconcile these facts than I just fell bad for you. Its really sad when some one as "Smart" as your self cannot see the error of his ways. I always seem to be engaging in a "discussion" with uneducated Human Animals such as you.

on a side note you don't have to post in this thread. The discussion was just fine with out you.

edit on 6-8-2011 by Reaper2137 because: (no reason given)

reply to post by Reaper2137

There isn't much worth responding to in your previous post, but let me clarify a couple of things.

Not sure what you intend to achieve by repeatedly claiming we are all the same after I repeatedly acknowledged that you can't find differences, since you lack emotions that are exclusively human.

Another "point" with which to attempt to explain my reaction away, envy, is quite illustrative of how your primate thinking operates. Sure envy is a powerful animal reaction, but humans have long outgrown that reaction. So, few humans envy the justly acquired wealth/possessions of another. But then again you have to be a human to know that.

I personally have no reason to envy any Westerner. I lived and worked in the West and could have continued to do so if I chose. Instead I chose to quit and face all the uncertainties and reduced standard of living that it entailed to live as a human instead of as a primate.

I know I am different from primates like you whose sole motivations are primate motivations. So I don't have to go over the history as written by primates like you denying the existence of humans like me. I liked to believe that you too possessed human emotions, but after living amongst primates like you, had to come to the realisation that not all human looking creatures are the same.

If I hadn't known better, I would have wondered why you primates constantly deny the existence of humans distinctly different from you. By claiming that "we are all the same" you can confuse humans into thinking that you mean at least some of those things that you claim and possess a better sense that humans can appeal to.

reply to post by kro32


I'm sure you will keep saying this when food will be harder to obtain. We are already seeing the price increases in food prices due to shortages from natural disasters and the decrease of the dollar value. Maybe you have no problem paying more for food but as you can see there are people starving all over the world (even the US of A)

I suppose the facts that you can see starring you in the face still doesn't mean a thing.

Hope this will work out well for you.