the 9mm vs .45 debate

reply to post by ANNED


I did the same thing to my Commander..useing a 1911 barrel and a commander bushing..therr 1/16 wide ports..shoots very well .use PDX1 hollowpoints

The best caliber ever is the one you can fire with consistent accuracy.

Some have trouble with kickback of the larger calibers. The FBI realized this and they wanted the stopping power of the .45 in the frame of a 9mm for their agents.

The 40 s&w was born from that realization....it's what I have carried for the last, I don't know 10-15 years.

reply to post by odinson


agreed, however the .45 being a bigger caliber could go through walls and hit a partner or innocent.

reply to post by JROCK2527


There is a simple saying that holds true. "If it won't penetrate a wall, it won't penetrate a bad guy well enough."

Originally posted by kinglizard

Some have trouble with kickback of the larger calibers. The FBI realized this and they wanted the stopping power of the .45 in the frame of a 9mm for their agents.

The 40 s&w was born from that realization....

Actually kind sir, during the aftermath of the 1986 FBI Miami shootout. The FBI observed the lack of stopping power in the 9mm round and wanted something with more effective terminal ballistics. Thus the 10mm was born. During testing of the 10 mil , it was found that the recoil was a little too stout for the agents to effectively handle.
(I've shot it before , and while fun to shoot... I wouldn't want to carry it)

Smith and Wesson reduced the amount of powder in the casing and acheived the desired ballistics. They also noticed that they didn't need the 10mm casing and trimmed it down creating what is known today as the .40 S&W or (Short & Weak)

All joking aside, the .40 is a great service round. I too carried it at work in my G23 and It is a good compromise between a 9mm and a .45 ACP. But as I stated before, given the choice of round to carry. I'll stick to my .45!

Originally posted by JROCK2527
reply to post by odinson

 

agreed, however the .45 being a bigger caliber could go through walls and hit a partner or innocent.

Here's a site I'd like you to check out it's called Box o' Truth It's a guy that got tired of the theoretical back and forths on the internet and decided to go do some real world testing, he tests all types of ammo and calibers on sheetrock, kevlar helmets , buicks...etc... it's an eye opener. Good Stuff!

pointless post. Really. Teh Internets are rife with data. Bottom line: hit what you mean to hit and it won't matter.

When the fecal matter hits the oscillator you wont be looking at a sight picture on your Glock, you'll be using natural point of aim and whatever handgun you feel the most comfortable with is the one that will put the most lead into the bad guy. And that's what keeps you alive and him dead. Period.

I own 9 handguns of varying type. Of those, I only trust 2 with my life because I've trained with them and I'm comfortable with them, and should things go sideways I know they are a natural extension of my body. The other 7 are "fun" guns.

I remember seeing a vid on youtube of the police in the US waiting outside a shop for a drug head to come out..he was full of angel dust or metamphetaminas or whatever..they put 13 rounds of 9mm in him before he had the decency to go down, i have a feeling two .45's would have been enough !!

.45 all the way.

Originally posted by andy1972
I remember seeing a vid on youtube of the police in the US waiting outside a shop for a drug head to come out..he was full of angel dust or metamphetaminas or whatever..they put 13 rounds of 9mm in him before he had the decency to go down, i have a feeling two .45's would have been enough !!

.45 all the way.

edit on 25-1-2012 by andy1972 because: (no reason given)

See? you can't say that. .45 in a 3.5 inch barrel? or a 4 inch? or a 2.5 inch? It matters. pistol weight matters. Grip matters. Are you a woman? do you need a small handgrip? are you a guy who's more comfortable with a .40?

No. No. No.

a .38 will kill just like a .50. Shot placement is everything, and consistent shot placement is a function of the skill and comfort level of the person behind the pistol.

I have a .45 that I spent $800 on that I'd N E V E R carry because it's not comfortable. It's cute and very concealable but in my hands its better as a club... but give me a Sig P226 and we're in business...

Originally posted by tangonine
Shot placement is everything, and consistent shot placement is a function of the skill and comfort level of the person behind the pistol.

THIS!!!

I'm currently running a Colt Commander XSE in .45 , I was running a Beretta PX4 in .45 before that. The Colt is Boringly accurate but I'm JUST getting used the the Colt to the point that im comfortable carrying it , But I've got so many hours behind a Glock 23 that it still feels like home , sometimes I'll instinctively slap leather and expect it to be there. The funny thing is I don't even like the 23...

Originally posted by EyesWideShut

Originally posted by tangonine
Shot placement is everything, and consistent shot placement is a function of the skill and comfort level of the person behind the pistol.

THIS!!!

I'm currently running a Colt Commander XSE in .45 , I was running a Beretta PX4 in .45 before that. The Colt is Boringly accurate but I'm JUST getting used the the Colt to the point that im comfortable carrying it , But I've got so many hours behind a Glock 23 that it still feels like home , sometimes I'll instinctively slap leather and expect it to be there. The funny thing is I don't even like the 23...

What most people fail to realize is that RL ain't the damn movies. 95% of people that carry will never have to pull. Of those 5% that do, 75% of those fights will be within 5-10 meters. Home invasions or you're just in the wrong Stop-N-Rob at the wrong time, or buying a 6-pack when some idiot loser decides he needs meth money.

In those cases, it's probably going to come down to close quarters combat: no sight picture, no weaver stance like on the range... Just pull and fire.

As any combat vet will tell you: the key to living through an encounter like that is training training and training and then some training. I've seen trained police officers freeze up when a gun is pulled on them, how would you do?

Not training shooting paper targets, but training in almost a karate dojo type situation where YOU have the gun and you must win.

If you CC, THIS is what you need to be prepared for.

You're the weapon, not the pistol.

.45 .38 9mm .40 doesn't matter when the *&$^ goes down.

reply to post by tangonine



Truth, The weapon is the tool.. "One Mind, Any Weapon" The #1 thing is mindset. There is a book I'd like to share , Meditations on Violence You've probably read it... but it's a good refresher on things we've already learned and an eye opener on a lot of other things.

I've worn many hats in my short 31 years on this planet , I've been lucky to have received some damn good training from different agencies as well , the one thing I've learned is that you never stop learning...training is evolutionary and there are always new concepts to pick up.

I've taught close friends that are civilian and new to firearms everything from an NRA 1st steps type class to some more advanced run and gun classes. I always enjoyed when you see the light bulb go off once they "Got It" and understood a concept.

As much as we see the ford vs chevy, 9mm vs .45 , coke vs pepsi , AR vs AK threads... what is really missing is mindset , philosophy of use and real world scenarios. You can only read so many "what kind of gun should I get for home defense" threads before you get burned out.

In closing I'd like you to check this article out, it's by a prior service Marine and current DEVGRU operator... It pretty much hits the nail on the head. YOU NEED TO READ THIS!!!

Originally posted by EyesWideShut
reply to post by tangonine

 

Truth, The weapon is the tool.. "One Mind, Any Weapon" The #1 thing is mindset. There is a book I'd like to share , Meditations on Violence You've probably read it... but it's a good refresher on things we've already learned and an eye opener on a lot of other things.

I've worn many hats in my short 31 years on this planet , I've been lucky to have received some damn good training from different agencies as well , the one thing I've learned is that you never stop learning...training is evolutionary and there are always new concepts to pick up.

I've taught close friends that are civilian and new to firearms everything from an NRA 1st steps type class to some more advanced run and gun classes. I always enjoyed when you see the light bulb go off once they "Got It" and understood a concept.

As much as we see the ford vs chevy, 9mm vs .45 , coke vs pepsi , AR vs AK threads... what is really missing is mindset , philosophy of use and real world scenarios. You can only read so many "what kind of gun should I get for home defense" threads before you get burned out.

In closing I'd like you to check this article out, it's by a prior service Marine and current DEVGRU operator... It pretty much hits the nail on the head. YOU NEED TO READ THIS!!!

I keep in touch with a few ranger and SEAL buddies, no names on ATS (my policy). And it's exactly that: training training training training and more training. Personally, I never had the training these guys did. but they are very VERY dangerous men, way more experienced than myself in nasty close quarters and two-way rifle ranges, who prefer the M9 (for those unfamiliar, it's the standard issue 9mm). Caliber is so secondary to training that it becomes insignificant.

Now, granted, these dudes are scary trained... but civies can get the same training in most major cities (google cqc handgun training). A good Karate class coupled with a pistol self defense class is, in my humble opinion, the bare minimum if you want to carry.

reply to post by andy1972


Officer Jared Reston was shot in the face with a .45acp. The assailant also hit the officer multiple times in areas not protected by ballistic armor. The officer got up and continued fighting. He ended up killing the attacker. However it took seven shots of .40S&W. The final shot being a contact distance shot through the skull. The other six shots did not stop the attacker and were non fatal. That is despite the fact that two other shots were too the head.

Massad Ayoob Article on Jared Reston
You Tube interview with Jared Reston. Very Informative

Then there was the state trooper that shot a guy in the chest six times with a .357 and failed to kill the suspect. The suspect shot him once with a .22 or a .25 and killed him. The bullet went under his arm and made it to the heart. The cop died in seconds.

It is all about where the bullet hits. There are dozens of reports of every caliber failing to work. The only one I haven't hear of failing is the the .50cal sniper rifles the military uses.

reply to post by MikeNice81


I remember seeing Ofc. Restons interview on television, it gave me goosebumps. He has serious will.

reply to post by MikeNice81


This is exactly it. The ability of a bullet to stop an attacker is based solely on what part of the body it contacts and injures.

Anything with sufficient penetration to go into the skull or penetrate the vertebrae will kill somebody dead instantly. This includes even the smallest of calibers.

However, bullet construction is also something to look at. Many hollowpoints will become clogged with clothing before entering the flesh of the target, preventing proper expansion. Pure lead and jacketed solids will make it through, but will not expand as much. All in all, though, carrying as much gun as you can get away with is not a bad plan.

reply to post by HattoriHanzou

However, bullet construction is also something to look at. Many hollowpoints will become clogged with clothing before entering the flesh of the target, preventing proper expansion.

That is something to consider. That is why a person has to research their ammo as well as their gun platform. I personally carry a load that is proven to work and matches the FBI standards for penetration and expansion.

Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger T, Remington Golden Saber, certain Winchester Ranger Bonded, and Federal HST are the most commonly used LEO rounds. They work and they have been proven time after time both in the lab and on the street.

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou
reply to post by MikeNice81

 

This is exactly it. The ability of a bullet to stop an attacker is based solely on what part of the body it contacts and injures.

Anything with sufficient penetration to go into the skull or penetrate the vertebrae will kill somebody dead instantly. This includes even the smallest of calibers.

However, bullet construction is also something to look at. Many hollowpoints will become clogged with clothing before entering the flesh of the target, preventing proper expansion. Pure lead and jacketed solids will make it through, but will not expand as much. All in all, though, carrying as much gun as you can get away with is not a bad plan.

Again: just put as many rounds on target as it takes to drop the guy trying to kill you. It doesn't matter if 1 HP = 1 Jacketed round. Just shoot him 8 times in the chest and call it good.

reply to post by andy1972
a 9x25 would have done it but then how many know of the 9x25, a 45 is 11.5x 23 the stranded 9 is 9x19, is it all about the thud or is it about taken down power , take down of course, if they would just make a 45 long colt auto.

I've got 9mm's, 45's, 357's, .308's, 5.56's, and in my opinion, it really doesn't matter much. It's all in the placement. Sure, if you get hit with a .45 hollow point, it really doesn't matter where you get hit, you're going to hit the dirt. On the other hand, if you get shot in the head with a .22, it tends to have the same effect.

That being said, I'm not so sure I'd carry a .22 for self defense, but I do carry both 9mm and .45's.