the 9mm vs .45 debate

I own a Glock 17...for the simple fact that it can hold 17+1 rounds. I also have the 33 rounder too (for range practice - less reloading)...and that thing is heavy when full.

The reason I chose a 9mm was that I had never owned/shot a gun before, and this one was relatively easy to use and be accurate with. If I do decide to obtain another, it will be a 40 or 45.

Originally posted by schuyler

Originally posted by matadoor
reply to post by MikeNice81

 

A well placed Pellet will kill you just as fast as a .45...

Very true, the key being "well-placed." With a .45, a near miss counts!

Not quite on the topic, but my last instructor pointed out that a well-placed group does not mean shots close together because you aren't doing any additional damage. A better approach is shots further apart which cause more trauma. An interesting approach I'd never heard before.

More holes equals more damage. Unless they are overlapping you will be getting exponential damge. The only way that makes any sense is if he meant that it is pointless to put two bullets in the same lung or same organ. Otherwise it makes absolutely no sense. It is like saying the proximity cancels out the damage. Three shots in a four inch group near the heart is a great thing. You have major arteries, vessels, lungs, brachial tubes, and other important things in that area.

I guess it all depends on what you consider a tight group.

Now if you are shooting two inch groups in a self defense encounter you are probably way too close or shooting way to slow. If you are too close pray. If you're aiming like it is a Bullseye competition, speed up. Look up Combat Focus Shooting. It explains why super tight groups may be a bad sign in a gun fight.

reply to post by MikeNice81


In my opinion, both schuyler and MikeNice81 points have merit. But I do believe MikeNice81 has the high ground. From my training, you'd want to hit the person within their thorax cavity, where the majority of vital organs are located. Any 2 shots, be it close or spread, should do ample damage from the shockwave each shot creates. Vital organs are key to stopping your attacker. In actual combat situations, you probably won't have time to pick precise organs. As long as you hit anywhere in the thorax cavity, you should be good to go. Granted nothing in life is exact.

Originally posted by 200Plus
I was told at a young age "never go to a gun fight with anything that doesn't start with a four"

There are so many variables that go into this argument. Stopping power vs penetration, make and model of the weapons, ammo for the weapons, target size, target environment, etc

9mm has a much higer chance to "slide" in CQB from what I have seen and I hate to think about hitting something I'm not aiming at.

Better days,

I was told at a young age, to aim for the head. period.

While I agree that this is very subject to situation, I prefer a .22 with CCI stinger hollowpoints ( but then again, I can actually shoot my firearm with some accuracy).
If I need more power, I'll take a rifle/shotgun.

If you think you need a hand cannon and a double-digit clip you are probably unprepared, and under armed for the situation.
Go to the range, and practice until you feel secure enough to hit what you are aiming at.

If you think a .22 with CCI stinger ammo won't stop any man with one shot, then you need to spend more time at the range.

Hand cannons are best for people that point-and-pull till the clip is empty.

Shooting with surgical precision saves ammo ,time, and can save your life.

Just my 0.02 $

9mm cheap ammo, one well placed shot or double tap to stop; .45 much more expensive ammo, one shot stop. 9mm ammo will be easier to find if S-HTF

Originally posted by BadNinja68

Originally posted by 200Plus
I was told at a young age "never go to a gun fight with anything that doesn't start with a four"

There are so many variables that go into this argument. Stopping power vs penetration, make and model of the weapons, ammo for the weapons, target size, target environment, etc

9mm has a much higer chance to "slide" in CQB from what I have seen and I hate to think about hitting something I'm not aiming at.

Better days,

I was told at a young age, to aim for the head. period.

You're right....a head shot or high cervical/brain stem shot destroying the upper spinal cord are the only two spots that will immediately and irrevocably eliminate a threat. A FBI report on caliber selection versus shot placement arrived at two conclusions...typically "go big or go home," and the importance of shot placement. They concluded that even a direct bullet to the heart could result in up to 15 seconds of usual consciousness for a perp to continue to be a threat. I think the lesson is to practice practice practice, regardless of the caliber. Know your weapon, know yourself.

While I agree that this is very subject to situation, I prefer a .22 with CCI stinger hollowpoints ( but then again, I can actually shoot my firearm with some accuracy).
If I need more power, I'll take a rifle/shotgun.

If you think you need a hand cannon and a double-digit clip you are probably unprepared, and under armed for the situation.
Go to the range, and practice until you feel secure enough to hit what you are aiming at.

If you think a .22 with CCI stinger ammo won't stop any man with one shot, then you need to spend more time at the range.

Hand cannons are best for people that point-and-pull till the clip is empty.

Shooting with surgical precision saves ammo ,time, and can save your life.

Just my 0.02 $

edit on 10/3/1111 by BadNinja68 because: (no reason given)

I seem to be the only one on the Net who has BOTHERED to find out the facts about this. I shot scores of animals with both calibers, with many different types of bullets. With ball or lrn ammo, there is no difference, both suck, badly, they let mere alleycats run 10's of yds after getting solid chest hits. With the lightest per caliber, highest velocity bullets, both do quite well, actually. with heavy for caliber bullets, jhp's don't expand, so they act like "ball" ammo, which is to say, they are very poor performers.

Well the Germans in WW2 were shocked and disgusted with the wounds inflicted by .45 apc.

so many have lied about the .45, so what? shoot some animals with it and see how small the exit wounds are, unless you use something like the Corbon 165 gr PowRBall jhp, at 1200 fps, you just don't get much, if any expansion of the jhp. The .45 is a lot closer to 350 ft lbs of energy than to 500, with many loads. In a little compact gun, the 230 gr .45 often has less than 300 ft lbs of power, and it will waste 1/3rd or more of that power on overpenetration, because it is going too slow to expand the jhp. there IS no hydrostatic shock damage unless the .45 is going 2000 fps, or the 9mm is going 2200 fps. Such speeds CAN be had, you know, with a 45 gr bullet in the 9mm or a 60 gr bullet in the .45. Such bullets are made out of aluminum rod, on a lathe, with huge, conical shaped hollowbase cavities. Use fully supported barrels and shortened .460 Rowland cases in the .45, have the 9mm rechambered to 356 TSW (team smith and wesson) rd, in a spare barrel. Any 9mm can have this done, but avoid weakly supported web areas, on guns like the Glock, the Beretta, Taurus copy of Beretta. These cases are thicker-stronger, won't blow out at the extractor groove. The powder to use is Bullseye, and you will need horrendous quantities of it just to make the slide cycle with such lw bullets. Such things scare traditional reloaders to death. :-)

Originally posted by Lil Drummerboy

Originally posted by schuyler

Originally posted by Lil Drummerboy
a 22 long will go through Kevlar
why the need for anything else?

Because a .22 doesn't make a very big hole. The fact that a .22 can penetrate Kevlar is not really the issue. .45 hollow point expands upon impact and DOES make a very big hole. You can confirm this by looking at gellatin ballistics. You can click on any caliber on that web site to see the results in both penetration and size of the hole. If the object is to stop the threat, a big hole is much more likely to bring about the result you desire. A .22 doesn't even begin to compare with the larger calibers. For paper target shooting, small game hunting, and expense of round, a .22 is great and great fun, but it's not what anyone would want to depend upon to stop a real threat.

I fully understand knockdown power,.
however a good shot in the correct placement will "take down" your target,.
Why do most officers not carry 45's? and besides if you really want to make a hole..
saw off a shotgun put on a pistol grip and use slugs.

edit on 20-7-2011 by Lil Drummerboy because: (no reason given)

Smart officers don't carry 45's because just about every round available will not penetrate vehicle doors. Don't believe me? Try it for yourself. Just make sure you are behind a tree when you do.

I have both but for combat i use the 45.

I use 165 gr hydra shocks for the best expansion and a faster second shot.

my first round will hit you in the family jewels area and the next about 8 inches higher the third will be the heart.

Most vest do not protect the family jewels very will and the shock will fold anyone up

Originally posted by ANNED
I have both but for combat i use the 45.

I use 165 gr hydra shocks for the best expansion and a faster second shot.

my first round will hit you in the family jewels area and the next about 8 inches higher the third will be the heart.

Most vest do not protect the family jewels very will and the shock will fold anyone up

Ahh........why not just put it in the head.............save the ammo........

Well since those are both defense rounds Im guessing we arent talking about hunting or target shooting. I'm not a big fan of the 9mm because I've heard about it doing weird things balistically. Stuff like exiting one person basically no expansion and killing unintended targets. But then again this was a long time ago. The biggest draw to 9's back in the day was hi cap and you could get them in sub compacts and compacts. Those features have been added in newer 45 designs. But I have to say it all comes down to your training and proficiency. You could give a person who has never shot a gun before a desert eagle .50 Ae and a combat shooter a single action .22 cal and most likley the guy with the .22 is gunna win. Its all about shot placement. 1 bb thru the eye beats a .30-06 in the hand. That being said I like the .45 for weight and higher energy

u AIN'T going to hit the testicles, dummy. I am one of the world's top IPSC marksmen, and I've seen World champs miss the entire silouetter at a mere 10 yds, just trying to draw and hit faster than ME. :-) That was in good light, with ear and eye protection, nobody trying to kill us, and stationary targets. Only morons talk about hitting small, peripheral targets during an attack. It takes an Audie Murphy to reliably hit the MUCH larger head, much less the spine, hands, nuts, foot., and I mean at realistic ranges, like 10 ft and less, too, when it's for real.; Try your bs sometime, on a man who is charging you with a rolled up magazine, to swat your stupid head repeatedly if you can't reliably hit his face mask, with your Air Soft pellets. Try your silly bs while he shoots at you with same, 5 times per second, with a gun in each hand, at 10 ft, too. :-) Try it with somebody shooing right over your head, in bad light, with cotton gloves to simulate adrenalin-numbing of hands, no ear protection, to get realistic.

I think the gun platform matters. If your talking about a 1911 .45 platform its ammo capacity is only 8. A 9mm glock 19 or 17 can hold 15 so there are a lot of factors. in my opinion the .45 is much better in a M&P platform.

several outfits make 1911's that feature double stack magazines, spld, Para-ordnance, etc. If you can't get a couple of hits in 8-9 tries, you'd bettter have cover, cause firing 8 shots, with any sort of control takes 2 seconds, not including the 1 second time for a ccw draw. If you have cover, you can swap mags, so all a double stack mag does is add to your problems ccwing the gun, especially in warm weather.

I served for 6 years and have become proficient with a large array of firearms, however, From my experience, it has always been better to have the stopping power of a .45 ACP whether it be a full metal jacket or hollow point round. I've found that when engaging an opposing force, it is better to hit them once or twice and know that severe damage will be caused rather than knowing that i'll have plenty more rounds to spare if the intended target doesnt go down.

There you go guys, just my opinion

I'd rather have 45 over 9 any day of the week. I carried a beretta for two tours in Iraq, and it worked perfectly fine for the application. The truth is, I carry my pistol for defense, and I know I am going to hit what I shoot at, so why not hit it and stop it the first time. Nothing is wrong with 9mm, I just choose 45acp. If you honestly want to get into the best pistol round made, the 5.7x28 is probably the most efficient handgun/sub-machine gun ammo ever created.

reply to post by beautyndissonance


You sound like a fan boy for FN FiveSeven but seriously, it's not practical.

Also, for those saying 45 has the stopping power or whatnot, I've never heard anyone say, "Damn why was I shot with a 45 instead of a 9!!!!!" or vice a versa...

reply to post by blackrain17


Whats not practical about the Five Seven? That's like saying that the Mp5 and USP combo isn't practical. Just because the 9mm is the good old used and abused round, doesn't mean that its the end all be all in hand gun ammunition. I can be just as effective with a well placed shot from a 22lr than a 9. Its all semantics when you get into handgun ballistics considering that you probably wont be engaging anything from more than 50 yards anyways.