Modern Poverty Includes A.C. and an Xbox

Originally posted by tncryptogal
reply to post by conspiracy nut

 

I remember those days too. Grams threw us outside and didn't expect us home until the streetlights came on. I remember sleeping on the porch on really sticky nights. Down here, the heat index can reach literally into the 120-130 degree range, so fans and open windows won't necessarily do the job. And like I said, child services will get involved now.

I have been hungry.
I have eaten from the trash others throw out.
I have been soaking wet from the heat and humidity with no relief in sight.
I have been sitting in the dark, doing my homework by the light from a kerosene lantern.
I have had to help my mom bring water from a creek across town.
I have been sick with no way to get to or pay for a doctor.
I have been homeless.

I am a child of the 1970's and 1980's. This is not a new problem. There is however a new kind of poor. The kind that had everything their heart wished for only to lose their security and have it taken away. If they worked hard and have their computers, ac and laptops, don't grudge them those comforts. Just remember before getting angry at the occasional "welfare queen", that there are A LOT of people who would love to flip burgers or dig ditches if only they could find someone to hire them. Not all of them are lazy and sucking on the welfare teat.

You are correct if I catch your drift that times have changed. Of course people like you and I from that generation know full well that all we have now is not a necessity. As you state, in many situations Child Welfare will get involved if you can't afford lights now or if you can't cool or heat your home.

As a society we have set a poverty line and we don't like to see families below that. Like it or not, that poverty line is not living in the gutter eating roaches.

My daughter is entering high school and it's not openly stated, but you get the impression that the school system expects that EVERY household should have a computer with internet connection. They almost everyday give homework requiring information gathering from the internet. It's our society.

reply to post by mahoosta


It sounds like you were brought up the way a lot of folks were brought up. It was hard, but you made it through. You learned life lessons. You appreciated what you had. You loved your mom and sis.

Just because people in Africa don't have any of these things, didn't make it less difficult to grow up the way I did.

It might not have made your situation any less difficult, but surely you aren't comparing your situation to the kids in Africa? With rebels coming through kidnapping and raping any one old enough to fight or breed? With flies and gnats and mosquitoes literally eating them alive and there is nowhere to hide from it? They can't go inside and escape the torment, they can't take a quick shower, they can't jump in a creek to cool off. When you wanted a drink of water, you had to walk to the kitchen, not the next village! When you couldn't sleep, you stood in front of the window unit, or the fan, or you took a shower, they don't have any of that!

I'm sorry, but "poor" in America is extremely rich compared to the worst areas in the world. Even living in a shelter or under a bridge is a huge improvement to living in Central Africa! Even the homeless camp behind our WalMart store has access to clean water, and access to healthcare if they are hurt. They can even find excuses to cool off in the AC for a little while. Where do you suppose the nearest water spigot, or air conditioning is in the rural area of Zimbabwe?

reply to post by haarvik


Gee... if all it takes is good old fashioned hard work... what's the problem with third world countries? Why haven't they been able to work themselves up to your level?

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by DZAG Wright

 

Or, maybe it isn't the best piece in the thread? Maybe it is just excuses from a helpless, victim's mentality? Maybe it is just the ranting of someone expecting everyone else to step in and fix their problems for them?

This is the internet. I can't solve the world's problems from here. But I have easy, common sense solutions to every excuse in that post that you loved. I have personal experience overcoming each and every excuse there. People have choices.

People can choose to be victims, or choose to be survivors. People can choose to alienate others, or they can choose to pitch in and help. When someone finds themself completely destitute, then it is time for reflection. How did that person treat others during the good times? Where is their network of good deeds? If there is none, then they are reaping the rewards of their life's choices! If they don't like what they are getting, then it is time for a paradigm shift! It is time to do things differently.

Sorry, but I only see excuses.

I will agree that some people display a victims mentality which I hate, but some people are victims and will not get a chance. There are only so many chances in our society. Our society is constructed that SOMEONE has to salt the fries and be homeless, it's how our society is made.

If we lived in a society where everyone could be rich, I wouldn't have any dog in the fight for the poor. However we do not live in such a society. If everyone went to school and obtained PHD's we'd still need someone to salt the fries.

We can harp on the shoulda's and coulda's all we want, but those words have something in common. They are all past tense, sorry but we live in the present.

Originally posted by shushu
reply to post by haarvik

 

Gee... if all it takes is good old fashioned hard work... what's the problem with third world counties? Why haven't they been able to work them selves up to your level?

Exactly the point!!!

The US is different than those 3rd world countries!! The resources and opportunities are different. The power structure is different. Hell, even the weather is different!

In the US, all it takes is a little bit of strategy, honesty, and hardwork. There are no excuses in the US. In 3rd world countries it is not so easy.

reply to post by SaturnFX


They are equally destructive and both create dependency on the government, albiet at a different scale. I would personally be 100% for the elimination of all federal tax breaks, subsidizes and all other manner of hand-outs given to corporations. I also would be supportive of a transparent bidding/contracting process as well as the elimination of tax schemes that benefit the rich such as they way hedge fund income is calculated (as a capital gain).

The challenge with the expanding welfare is that it creates a class of people who have absolutely no stake in the government nor the quality of the governance they receive. They are interested in what they receive from the government and like many people vote with their pockets - for those who wish to give them more. You will not get reform at the top until you get reform at the bottom and that reform must coenside with driving who pays taxes lower to create some legitimate skin in the game beyond what they can "expect" from the government. If you want to destroy the value of something, the easiest way to do that is to give it away for free and that we have done with the results of the hard labor of tax payers in this country.

That the government needs more "revenue" is a joke. The government has no revenue with respect to federal income tax. If Obama came out and said "We need to take more of people's money to solve these problems" he would have a lot more credibility as far as I'm concerned. Instead he talks about revenue.

People should begin with the assumption that they should expect nothing from the government. When the founders included wording around general welfare, they were not speaking about flat screens and video games. When folks hear the poor described they don't think about them either, yet that is exactly what we have.

Again, you can formulate what ever policy around social programs you want to. Lets just start with understand the living conditions of many of those who receive them. If the people want to vote to give more money to folks who drive nice cars, have big TVs, internet access and the rest, fine - thats democracy. Lets just be honest about it. Lets also place a value on those items so that we can an actual understanding of how poor the poor are.

americans do think they are poor the ops is no surprise.

try living in africa or north korea or less modernized cities in china americans just think they have it so bad

the truth is they can have it alot worse.

be glad you were born here in america being poor anywhere else forget it you wont have all those "materialistic trinkets".

thats how americans poor middile and rich define themselves as in the stuff the have.

Originally posted by shushu
reply to post by haarvik

 

Gee... if all it takes is good old fashioned hard work... what's the problem with third world countries? Why haven't they been able to work themselves up to your level?

edit on 19-7-2011 by shushu because: (no reason given)

Because they are lazy good for nothing bums who are looking for a socialist welfare check teet to suckle.
(Sarcasm...)

reply to post by shushu


Last time I checked they didn't live in the US! You are becoming a troll.

Now, I must clarify something here. When I talk about the lazy poor, I am by no means including children in this. Children should not have to pay for the sins of the parent. I will help a child in a heartbeat. I have bought kids new bikes because their parents said they could not afford to buy them one. I have bought kids new clothes. I have even taken some to theme parks. Sometimes all a child wants is for someone to make them feel wanted. Sometimes one nice thing can make a difference in whether they grow up to be a good citizen or a criminal.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by mahoosta

 

It sounds like you were brought up the way a lot of folks were brought up. It was hard, but you made it through. You learned life lessons. You appreciated what you had. You loved your mom and sis.

Just because people in Africa don't have any of these things, didn't make it less difficult to grow up the way I did.

It might not have made your situation any less difficult, but surely you aren't comparing your situation to the kids in Africa? With rebels coming through kidnapping and raping any one old enough to fight or breed? With flies and gnats and mosquitoes literally eating them alive and there is nowhere to hide from it? They can't go inside and escape the torment, they can't take a quick shower, they can't jump in a creek to cool off. When you wanted a drink of water, you had to walk to the kitchen, not the next village! When you couldn't sleep, you stood in front of the window unit, or the fan, or you took a shower, they don't have any of that!

I'm sorry, but "poor" in America is extremely rich compared to the worst areas in the world. Even living in a shelter or under a bridge is a huge improvement to living in Central Africa! Even the homeless camp behind our WalMart store has access to clean water, and access to healthcare if they are hurt. They can even find excuses to cool off in the AC for a little while. Where do you suppose the nearest water spigot, or air conditioning is in the rural area of Zimbabwe?

I'm agreeing in the fact that you can't compare the two. These are two different situations in two different parts of the world.

Originally posted by haarvik
reply to post by tncryptogal

 

I would agree with you. I have friends who are hard working and yet poor. I also watch them buy $6 packs of cigarettes and $12 cases of beer every other night. I don't empathize with them because they are their own enemy. Yes it is nice to have a big TV and the fastest internet and the newest cell phone. But to have them and then complain that you can't afford anything is your fault, not Bill Gates' fault. Something our generation will never have in common with the depression era is they "lived within their means". They sacrificed during the hard times so they could have rewards when things got better.

.

They did the underlined because that's what they were accustomed to doing. They came from nothing so of course it was easy to return to nothing! The "credit" society had not been invented yet. Many people now were born in or after the credit society, they know nothing of saving for years to purchase something. That's not even something their parents did.

So we have to hold society responsible for that.

Also, is it even advisable to attempt to live in that manner now? To save up $100K to purchase your first home? To save $10K to purchase your first car? Think carefully before you answer that and realize most jobs do credit checks before hiring someone. How will they view someone who has no credit?

As I say, it's our society....

I suppose I'm freaking poor! I have no X-box no AC. I always knew it, I'm a poor bastard. I agree with Cuervo's sentiments, just some more words to divide and fuel the class war, so when Aug 3 comes around, more people will agree with the cuts that IMHO are about to come full force. But hey I'm just a rodeo clown

reply to post by DZAG Wright

Our society is constructed that SOMEONE has to salt the fries and be homeless, it's how our society is made.

If we lived in a society where everyone could be rich, I wouldn't have any dog in the fight for the poor. However we do not live in such a society. If everyone went to school and obtained PHD's we'd still need someone to salt the fries.

This part I entirely agree with, and this is the problem with our education system. We try to raise everyone thinking they can get PhD's and not have to work for a living. We teach all the kids that they can be whatever they want to be. No they can't. It just isn't true, and it gives them a false sense of entitlement. The facts are, we are not all created equal. We have equal opportunity, but we don't have equal skills and talents. I will never be a pro basketball player or a famed artist.

Now, we are getting to the root problems! Some people have to salt the fries, but it is no reason to be homeless, or carry any stigma. Some of the most intelligent people I have known were car mechanics! Not everyone needs to go to college, some people need to learn their father's trade. Not everyone needs to move out and get their own home at 18, some need to stick around and help support the family. Not every family needs to be independent, some need the support of extended family in raising the kids, and taking care of the dishes, and mowing the yard.

If the society could get away from the expectations and stigmas and flat out lies that we tell our kids, then the society could see the benefit of people trying to do what they are good at, and trying to excel in that area! We don't need cookie-cutter education, some kids need to learn to fix cars at age 12, and by 16 they might be experts, and by 21 they might be making more money than their counterparts graduating college!

Some families need to remodel the mother-in-laws quarters, combine resources, and help one another raise up and live better lifestyles by cooperating!

Some political leaders need to tell the hard truths instead of pandering to pollsters.

Originally posted by mahoosta
I come from a family of 3. Growing up, my mother raised my sister and I (1 year apart), on less than $11,000 a year.

We lived in Section 8 Income Based WI Public Housing. Rent was 33% of income, so we paid about $290. Electric wasn't included.

We had cable, and two TV's. Always basic cable, and our two TV's were older than dirt.

My mother had a cheap tracphone in case of emergencies.

We had a really old wall air conditioner that could keep the temperature to a tolerable 80 degrees when it was 100 outside.

I had a Nintendo 64. Mind you, years after it came out.

We got my first computer and internet when my mother was in a car accident and broke her neck (she was in the hospital for 9 months, and has never been the same since). Her settlement of $30,000 had to be spent within 1 month, or they would drop her social security.

We were driving a '91 Ford Taurus in 2002, and she got a brand new Kia (with settlement money) (her first new car and her first car purchased within 7 years of the original date of manufacturer), since she wanted a good warranty should something go wrong.

We had a washer and dryer, but it was coin-operated, and never really washed your clothing well. It was horrible.

We had a cordless telephone after everyone else did, but this isn't exactly much more expensive than a corded phone.

Just because people in Africa don't have any of these things, didn't make it less difficult to grow up the way I did.

I would never wish my upbringing on anyone, even my worst enemy. Don't read this article and think you know anything more than these basic statistics, because these are JUST numbers.

The situations are much more real. The poor DO NOT live the high life this article makes you believe.

Please don't go around saying "I read this article that said....blah blah blah". This article is ridiculous.

_______________________________________________________

Both my sister and I have broke the cycle of poverty in our family, and I enjoy a comfortable salary, as does my sister.

edit on 19-7-2011 by mahoosta because: Made an oops.

Thank you for this!

reply to post by DZAG Wright


Actually what caused the great depression was people over extended on credit. Credit for stocks and bonds instead of credit cards. The average guy was making a killing in the market, and was leveraging himself to make even more. The stock bubble burst and everyone lost their shirts. Even some of the bankers from that era lost everything. So really nothing any different than what we have now. people over extended and spending beyond their means. When people can no longer afford to pay these credit bills, it will collapse again.

Originally posted by getreadyalready

Originally posted by shushu
reply to post by haarvik

 

Gee... if all it takes is good old fashioned hard work... what's the problem with third world counties? Why haven't they been able to work them selves up to your level?

Exactly the point!!!

The US is different than those 3rd world countries!! The resources and opportunities are different. The power structure is different. Hell, even the weather is different!

In the US, all it takes is a little bit of strategy, honesty, and hardwork. There are no excuses in the US. In 3rd world countries it is not so easy.

And being a cunning alpha dog doesn't hurt, either. Along with somebody always watching your back 24/7.

reply to post by dolphinfan




Yeah right. Any organization or website in the USA that uses the word "heritage" in it's name is almost certainly on the political "right" which guarantees that it's opinions will be biased. Better if we find out more about this particular source isn't it? Or is it OK just to accept it as being true?

reply to post by shushu

And being a cunning alpha dog doesn't hurt, either. Along with somebody always watching your back 24/7.

Absolutely true. I'm not saying some don't have it easier than others. I'm only saying the tasks are not insurmountable.

reply to post by dolphinfan

Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by dolphinfan

What a ridiculous article. The obvious intent (from Heritage Foundation, no less) is to make "haaaard wurkin' non-welfare" people think that all of these people are leaching off the government and are not working.

Almost all of those people are hardworking and half the people that will get steamed towards the "poor" people reading this are poor themselves and just don't know it. Poverty line for a single person is $35,000 by most standards. There are a lot of "poor" people who don't even know they are poor. It's not their fault that people like Heritage Foundation are whining on their behalf.

It detracts from the very real problem of a large portion of American society who truly does struggle day to day in order to pay electricity and feed their families. This article is a work of obvious propaganda to foster a class-war. Disgusting.

As always, yet another baseless and ridiculous attack on the Heritage foundation. Very obviously this article is attacking the census definition of "poor". And they are right. The census definition of "poor" seem to suck based on the provided statistics. That said, there are serious flaws in the Heritage Foundation's findings.

First of all, in the US, you can find cell phones, TVs, etc for free. Therefore, its very possible to have a TV and yet be extremely poor. The poor in a country that was capitalist at one time are bound to live much better lives than the poor in a tyrannical nation.

The Heritage foundation is also pointing out another very important fact. The poor in rich countries are much better off than the poor in poor countries.