Why God's Word The Bible IS Infallible!

reply to post by edmc^2

So to say that Moses was Egyptian is only 1/3 truth for he wholeheartedly knew who he was - a worshiper of the Hebrew God YHWH (Jehovah / Yahweh).

How could Moses be a worshipper of this god YHWH when the name was not adopted until much later.
I doubt Moses lived with his natural mother more than being weened and did not remember what he may have heard when he was two.
Some other sort of evidence was found by Moses somehow, that he was more like these Hebrews than the Egyptians.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Of course being a Hebrew himself - Moses knew who is the God of Israel and also was a worshiper of the Hebrew God YHWH (Jehovah). In fact he thought of himself of the deliverer of God YHWH.

Here's an additional information provided to by the disciple Stephen:

New King James Version:

Act 7:23 "Now when he was forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren, the children of Israel.


Act 7:24 "And seeing one of [them] suffer wrong, he defended and avenged him who was oppressed, and struck down the Egyptian.


Act 7:25 "For he supposed that his brethren would have understood that God would deliver them by his hand, but they did not understand.


Act 7:26 "And the next day he appeared to [two of] them as they were fighting, and [tried to] reconcile them, saying, 'Men, you are brethren; why do you wrong one another?'


Act 7:27 "But he who did his neighbor wrong pushed him away, saying, 'Who made you a ruler and a judge over us?

Note v25:

Act 7:25 "For he supposed that his brethren would have understood that God would deliver them by his hand, but they did not understand."

Moses was well aware of the prophecy that God promised to his forefathers - that is, he will deliver and take Israel out of Egypt.

Notice:

“. . .And Joseph continued to dwell in Egypt, he and the house of his father; and Joseph lived for a hundred and ten years. And Joseph got to see E′phra‧im’s sons of the third generation, also the sons of Ma′chir, Ma‧nas′seh’s son. They were born upon Joseph’s knees. At length Joseph said to his brothers: “I am dying; but God will without fail turn his attention to YOU, and he will certainly bring YOU up out of this land to the land about which he swore to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob.” Hence Joseph made the sons of Israel swear, saying: “God will without fail turn his attention to YOU. Accordingly YOU must take my bones up out of here.” After that Joseph died at the age of a hundred and ten years; and they had him embalmed, and he was put in a coffin in Egypt.” (Genesis 50:22-26)

Without knowing God and his promises Moses will not do such a foolish thing - lose his privileged as an upcoming powerful ruler in Egypt.

“By faith Moses, when grown up, refused to be called the son of the daughter of Phar′aoh, choosing to be ill-treated with the people of God rather than to have the temporary enjoyment of sin,” (Hebrews 11:24-25)

So evidently Moses knew who God is - especially his NAME YHWH* (Jehovah / Yehuwah / Yahweh)

After all his mother's name Jochebed means "Jehovah Is Glory"

Jochebed, h3115 יוכבד Yowkebed
Jochebed = "Jehovah is glory"

1) the daughter of Levi, wife and at the same time aunt of Amram, and the mother of Moses, Aaron, and Miriam

www.blueletterbible.org...



Note: *

Jewish Superstition Causes Substitution For God's Name:

A Jewish superstition caused Almighty God's (YHWH's) name to be substituted with substitutes in many ancient scrolls, and the un-steadfast wrestle with these instead of trying to gain understanding, but some translations have put the proper name back in where it belongs such as the American Standard Version, ASV; and The Restored Name Bible, and the New World Translation, NWT; and is some places The Living Bible or Holman Standard Christian Bible as either Jehovah or Yahweh where the Tetragrammaton or God's name (YHWH) was in the original. We shall now consider some places in the Bible where this occurred:...

www.network54.com...

reply to post by wearewatchingyouman



Now I know for sure why you're so confused about the Bible - particularly the Torah: who wrote them? You've been watching too much nonsensical opinions promoted by so called "experts" who hold doctorates and phud's awarded by so called "experts"/ "professors" of theology with a definite agenda.

This reminds me of how Jesus and his apostles were viewed and treated during their time by so called "experts":

“Now when they beheld the outspokenness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were men unlettered and ordinary, they got to wondering. And they began to recognize about them that they used to be with Jesus;” (Acts 4:13)

SO lets address this NONSENSE that the Pentateuch / Torah was written by different writers other than Moses.

(I'll just paraphrase it to keep it short - please by all means correct me if I gotten it wrong)

Nonsense 1) Writing Style: Because the books shows different writing STYLES, therefore the Pentateuch / Torah has different writers.

Fact: True we can see different writing styles in the Five Scrolls - does this mean that it had different writers?

Answer: NO - because the writer was given the freedom (from God) to write the books THE WAY HE SEES IT!

It is a fact that writing styles of people change - unless you doubt it. The mind is fluid and also circumstances. One moment we're happy, another moment we're sad. Considering the circumstances and the state of mind - a writer will change his style of writing. It will also change depending on the subject matter.

Unless you say otherwise.

Notice one example:

Egyptologist K. A. Kitchen's findings with regards to a particular Egyptian document. He used the same criteria used when studying writing style of the Pentateuch and concluded that indeed the document he reviewed appeared to be written by DIFFERENT HANDS.

Then the "bombshell":

The Egyptian document:

"...was conceived, composed, written, and carved within months, weeks, or even less. There can be no ‘hands’ behind its style, which merely varies with the subjects in view and the question of fitting treatment.”—The New Bible Dictionary, p. 349.

These are facts UNLESS you want to contradict them! Good luck.

So just because the Pentateuch shows different writing style - does not mean that Moses was not the writer.


Consider the length of time and situation when the Torah was written:

Book: Genesis
Writer: Moses
Place Written: Wilderness
Writing Completed: 1513 B.C.E.
Time Covered: “In the beginning” to 1657 B.C.E.
Covers the Beginning of Creation down to the death of Joseph (in what style should these be written?).


Book: Exodus
Writer: Moses
Place Written: Wilderness
Writing Completed: 1512 B.C.E.
Time Covered: 1657-1512 B.C.E.
Covers the commission of Moses down to building of the Tabernacle (in what style should these be written?).

Book: Leviticus
Writer: Moses
Place Written: Wilderness
Writing Completed: 1512 B.C.E.
Time Covered: 1 month (1512 B.C.E.)
Contains regulations and laws and commandments (in what style should these be written?)

Numbers
Writer: Moses
Place Written: Wilderness and Plains of Moab
Writing Completed: 1473 B.C.E.
Time Covered: 1512-1473 B.C.E.
Covers the numbering of the people of Israel after departing Egypt (in what style should these be written?).


Deuteronomy
Writer: Moses
Place Written: Plains of Moab
Writing Completed: 1473 B.C.E.
Time Covered: 2 months (1473 B.C.E.)
Covers the historical events when Israel wandered in the Wilderness (in what style should these be written?).

Should Moses maintain the SAME writing style from Genesis to Deuteronomy? Like a pre-programmed robot in order to satisfy you're skewed understanding?

I wonder how would Shakespeare's sonnets will read if they were written in just one style - like today's style?


Next - we'll cover the other nonsense promoted by your video and you flawed hypothesis - the documentary theory.

later...

reply to post by edmc^2

Of course being a Hebrew himself - Moses knew who is the God of Israel and also was a worshiper of the Hebrew God YHWH (Jehovah). In fact he thought of himself of the deliverer of God YHWH.

The rabbinical writings associate her with Shiphrah in Exodus 1. Biblical criticism believes that the section in chapter 6 which says the name you are giving, Jochebed, comes from the Book of Generations and was added much later. My comment would be that the time this genealogy was added was the same time when the priests were going through Genesis and adding YHVH in the place of the old god. She would have been reconditioned by having her pagan name changed to a yahwistic name.
So that is thin proof that YHWH was a know god name before Moses met the angel in the burning bush. There are lots of examples in the OT where people were reconditioned by having baal names changed to a yahwistic one.

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by edmc^2

 

Quote: ["Do you you believe infinity exist? Why?"]

I can believe in an absense of time, which is the rational position. 'Infinity' is a meaningless concept there. Your proposition is topsy-turvy, starting from the answer, as is common in the theist way, when trying to 'prove' something. Standard logic would be welcomed.

How is infinity a meaningless concept?

If there is no matter, quantification is meaningless. If there is no energy dynamics is meaningless. If the is no space, position is meaningless. If there is no time infinity is meaningless.

All of them being empty concepts, without reference-points. This is very simple science/logic conclusions, which you ofcourse aren't obliged to relate to as measure-tapes for ultimate reality.

You can instead rely on an undiluted faith-position (in sharp competition with other faiths, using a basis identical with yours) OR you can demonstrate some new and unknown method for arriving to 'truth'. All those choices are yours.

edit on 19-7-2011 by bogomil because: syntax and typos

What are these simple scientific/logical conclusions?

Let us analyze your beliefs for a while.

reply to post by Mantha


You wrote:

["What are these simple scientific/logical conclusions?"]

That you can't measure anything, which isn't around.

Quote: ["Let us analyze your beliefs for a while."]

As long as it is topic-related, and as long as it really is my beliefs.

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by edmc^2
reply to post by Akragon

 

Did you noticed something about the list below?
What are they?

Witches
Homosexuals
Fortunetellers
Hitting Dad
Cursing Parents
Adultery
Fornication

They are UNHOLY ACTS.

Are these UNHOLY acts allowed in your life?
Nothing wrong with them in your POV?

In other words - if you're a family head and wanted to protect your children from such acts - will you allow them?

What would your children think if you say you hate such wicked acts yet allow them in your family circle?

But, if you really knew how these unholy acts were practiced back then - by nations not knowing the Creator of the heavens and the earth - you'll probably will feel sick to your stomach - then again maybe not seeing that you're OK with them.

But as reminder - lets review: Before coming into an agreement, God commanded the Israelites the following:

“20 And God proceeded to speak all these words, saying:
2 “I am Jehovah your God, who have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slaves.
3 You must not have any other gods against my face.
4 “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth.
5 You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation, in the case of those who hate me;
6 but exercising loving-kindness toward the thousandth generation in the case of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 “You must not take up the name of Jehovah your God in a worthless way, for Jehovah will not leave the one unpunished who takes up his name in a worthless way.
8 “Remembering the sabbath day to hold it sacred,
9 you are to render service and you must do all your work six days.
10 But the seventh day is a sabbath to Jehovah your God. You must not do any work, you nor your son nor your daughter, your slave man nor your slave girl nor your domestic animal nor your alien resident who is inside your gates.
11 For in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day. That is why Jehovah blessed the sabbath day and proceeded to make it sacred.
12 “Honor your father and your mother in order that your days may prove long upon the ground that Jehovah your God is giving you.
13 “You must not murder.
14 “You must not commit adultery.
15 “You must not steal.
16 “You must not testify falsely as a witness against your fellowman.
17 “You must not desire your fellowman’s house. You must not desire your fellowman’s wife, nor his slave man nor his slave girl nor his bull nor his ass nor anything that belongs to your fellowman.”” ....(Exodus 20:1-17)

All in all there were about 600 laws that were given to the Israelites. After learning all of them here's what the nation of Israel promised God:

“. . .Then Moses came and related to the people all the words of Jehovah and all the judicial decisions, and all the people answered with one voice and said: “All the words that Jehovah has spoken we are willing to do.” Accordingly Moses wrote down all the words of Jehovah. Then he got up early in the morning and built at the foot of the mountain an altar and twelve pillars corresponding with the twelve tribes of Israel. After that he sent young men of the sons of Israel and they offered up burnt offerings and sacrificed bulls as sacrifices, as communion sacrifices to Jehovah. Then Moses took half the blood and put it in bowls, and half the blood he sprinkled upon the altar. Finally he took the book of the covenant and read it in the ears of the people. Then they said: “All that Jehovah has spoken we are willing to do and be obedient.” So Moses took the blood and sprinkled it upon the people and said: “Here is the blood of the covenant that Jehovah has concluded with YOU as respects all these words.”” (Exodus 24:3-8)

Penalty for disobedience?

“Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three.” (Hebrews 10:28)

(notice - witnesses are needed before someone is accused of guilt)

Also:

“‘But the soul that does something deliberately, whether he is a native or an alien resident, he speaking abusively of Jehovah, in that case that soul must be cut off from among his people.” (Numbers 15:30)

(notice: if the act is deliberate, a willful disregard of the law - proven by witnesses then one is pronounced guilty - liable to the penalty of death)


But let's see if you really know the Bible as you portray yourself to be:

Simple question:

Why were the commandments GIVEN to the NATION of ISRAEL only and NOT any other nation on earth?

If you can answer this simple question then you WILL understand the "law of Moses".

(I'll pick up the rest of what you said later).

Ya you're missing the point, unholy acts or not... these are instances where "God" commanded people to kill other people. This is not something God would do.

Homosexuality is natural, it occurs in nature in all species. God created them if you will, he has no reason to want to destroy them, let alone tell others to do so.

Witchcraft... isn't unholy. As a matter of fact wiccan's are much more "holy" then 90% of christians.

I don't need to review the 10 commandments, i understand them completely... clearly as you can see most do not, but they were changed to two main commandments. Both of which involve love...

And, who cares why the commandments we're given to whoever, it makes no difference in this day.

The fact is your book has many instances where "God" commands another to kill... which completely invalidates your innitial arguement.

The bible isn't Gods written word, its mans "inspired" word... mostly written for control of the masses...

edit on 30-7-2011 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

Sounds like you own a copy of the "Book of Wiccan's". If you don't mind I have a question as well.

How do you know what God would or wouldn't do if you don't believe in his message? It's a little naive to think that you have the answers about a God you don't believe in.

His "message" is in the bible... the words of Jesus are God message. The entire book is Not his message, its filled with contradiction, and garbage like what i've posted.

As i've stated before, God would have no reason to kill his own creations. He would also have no reason to "command" others to kill for him either. Its simply illogical...

Instances where you see "God commanded" so and so to kill so and so, are simply examples of men with agendas. Similar to why the gnostics were killed off... Do you think God commanded christians to destroy the gnostics? Obviously not... yet another shining example of men with agendas...

See where im going with this?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by edmc^2

 

Of course being a Hebrew himself - Moses knew who is the God of Israel and also was a worshiper of the Hebrew God YHWH (Jehovah). In fact he thought of himself of the deliverer of God YHWH.

The rabbinical writings associate her with Shiphrah in Exodus 1. Biblical criticism believes that the section in chapter 6 which says the name you are giving, Jochebed, comes from the Book of Generations and was added much later. My comment would be that the time this genealogy was added was the same time when the priests were going through Genesis and adding YHVH in the place of the old god. She would have been reconditioned by having her pagan name changed to a yahwistic name.
So that is thin proof that YHWH was a know god name before Moses met the angel in the burning bush. There are lots of examples in the OT where people were reconditioned by having baal names changed to a yahwistic one.

Can you please elaborate further on your comment below?

My comment would be that the time this genealogy was added was the same time when the priests were going through Genesis and adding YHVH in the place of the old god. She would have been reconditioned by having her pagan name changed to a yahwistic name.

When you say "priest" - you're referring to the so called "Priest Codex" - correct?

Do you have specific verses where the "Priests" added God's name YHVH in place of the "old god"? I'm curious.

Also, who is the "old god" ru referring to?

reply to post by bogomil


The Bible - The Written Word of God is Infallible because:

All of the the prophecies written therein (with the exception of future ones - a few left) were fulfilled with PINPOINT ACCURACY! Even though they were written hundreds and even thousand years in advance.

All came true including its minute details. That ALONE (in addition to others) is a solid proof and shows Why God's Word The Bible IS Infallible!

Here's just one of the many of prophecies fulfilled and still being fulfilled right in front of our eyes!


The March of the World Powers:

31 “Your Majesty looked, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. 32 The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. 34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth. -- Daniel 2:31-35 NIV.

reply to post by edmc^2


You wrote:

["All of the the prophecies written therein (with the exception of future ones - a few left) were fulfilled with PINPOINT ACCURACY!"]

As I find it a waste of time to go through the whole box of 'signs and wonders' (which sofar never have demonstrated anything than more semantics, when experts on both sides have presented their arguments), I'll ask you to give me a few examples to refer to.

And then AGAIN ask you, why you are unable to stay on the subject of gen 1 and 2, which are directly open for reality-checks. Is it because you prefer the semantic mumbo-jumbo opportunities in 'signs and wonders'?

reply to post by edmc^2

When you say "priest" - you're referring to the so called "Priest Codex" - correct?
Do you have specific verses where the "Priests" added God's name YHVH in place of the "old god"? I'm curious.
Also, who is the "old god" ru referring to?

I read a bunch of scholarly type books on the OT and once I got to a particular understanding of what was going on, I kind of dropped my whole study. So I am not so keen on all the specifics but I have a general understanding that there were several revisions of the text and attempts at reconciling discrepancies. I don't know what that other name was but I would expect something like Baal. From the point of view of Hebrew held Canaan, there were two gods, Baal to the north, and YHWH to the south, based in Sinai. It was natural to associate that god with the exodus from Egypt and that god eventually gained prominence and archaeologically, you can see the names changing over time.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by edmc^2

 

You wrote:

["All of the the prophecies written therein (with the exception of future ones - a few left) were fulfilled with PINPOINT ACCURACY!"]

As I find it a waste of time to go through the whole box of 'signs and wonders' (which so far never have demonstrated anything than more semantics, when experts on both sides have presented their arguments), I'll ask you to give me a few examples to refer to.

And then AGAIN ask you, why you are unable to stay on the subject of gen 1 and 2, which are directly open for reality-checks. Is it because you prefer the semantic mumbo-jumbo opportunities in 'signs and wonders'?

I thought I already explained this? No?

OK then, let’s take a quick trip in the memory lane. Let’s look at the Scriptures starting from Genesis Chapter 1 through Chapter 2.

Genesis 1 (NWT)

1 In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth.. – Gen 1:1

In V1 – Moses the writer of Genesis simply tells us this simple fact: that the “heavens and the earth” were Created. Included in the creation of the “heavens” (universe) are the heavenly bodies such as the stars, the moon and the SUN, as well as Galaxies. There's no mention of time here, so this can be thousands or billions of years (no contradiction with currently known scientific evidence).

In the next verse V2 – the writer now focuses our attention on the "formless" earth.

He writes:

2 Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of [the] watery deep; and God’s active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters. – Gen 1:2

Here, we notice the writer said that the “earth” was “formless” engulf in a “watery deep” – so naturally no light from the heavenly bodies mentioned in Gen 1:1 (such as the sun or the moon) can penetrate through the “watery deep”. No light thus - “there was darkness upon the surface of [the] watery deep “. So at this stage the earth (solid mass enveloped in a “watery deep”) was still uninhabitable.

Then time came to make it habitable.

Interestingly this is how science describes how planets are formed. They reason that at the early stages of the planet’s formation at one time all of earth’s water existed in the form of atmospheric vapor because of the extreme heat of the earth’s surface.

NOW : The 1st Creative “Day”

(Note: the creative “Day” – is not a literal 24 hr day but spans thousands of years as indicated by the Bible Chronology)

Gen 1:3 --

3 And God proceeded to say: “Let light come to be”* Then there came to be light. 4 After that God saw that the light was good, and God brought about a division between the light and the darkness. 5 And God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a first day. -- Gen 1: 3-5

At this stage of the 1st Creative Day when God’s power (spirit) was “moving to and fro over the surface of the waters”, it did something to the dark “watery deep” since “light” from heavenly bodies mentioned in Gen 1:1 (sun, moon, stars) became visible on the earth – “there came to light”.

So if a person was standing on earth he can see light* through the “watery deep”. This “light” as explained by the writer created/provided a division between the darkness from the light – God “calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night”.

*Other translations puts v3 this way: “And gradually light came into existence.” (A Distinctive Translation of Genesis)

Next stage: The 2nd Creative Day

6 And God went on to say: “Let an expanse come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters.” 7 Then God proceeded to make the expanse and to make a division between the waters that should be beneath the expanse and the waters that should be above the expanse. And it came to be so. 8 And God began to call the expanse Heaven. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a second day. – Gen 1:6-8

At this stage of Creation – the writer informs us that a division (#expanse – heaven / sky / dome) was created “between the waters ...that should be beneath the expanse and the waters that should be above the expanse.” In other words a sky is now in view where flying creature can fly to.

#the Bible is silent as to how the “expanse” was created.

Next stage: The 3rd Creative Day

9 And God went on to say: “Let the waters under the heavens be brought together into one place and let the dry land appear.” And it came to be so. 10 And God began calling the dry land Earth, but the bringing together of the waters he called Seas. Further, God saw that [it was] good. 11 And God went on to say: “Let the earth cause grass to shoot forth, vegetation bearing seed, fruit trees yielding fruit according to their kinds, the seed of which is in it, upon the earth.” And it came to be so. 12 And the earth began to put forth grass, vegetation bearing seed according to its kind and trees yielding fruit, the seed of which is in it according to its kind. Then God saw that [it was] good. 13 And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a third day. – Gen 1:9-13

At this stage of the 3rd Creative Day – dry land appeared – “and God began calling the dry land Earth”. This means that water sank and they were “brought together into one” and “the waters he called Seas”.

-- National Geographic is good at explaining this event, the rise and fall of the seas / land / mountains --

Also at this stage the 3rd Creative Day – after “dry land” appeared plant / tree life of every kind began to grow – courtesy of photosynthesis from the sun now shining through the “water above the expanse”.
Interestingly, due to this ‘water canopy’ that enveloped the earth – climate at all regions was the same. Archeology confirmed this to be so when they discovered underneath the ice sheets plant and animal life that normally grow and live on warm regions of the earth today.

Next stage: The 4th Creative Day

14 And God went on to say: “Let luminaries come to be in the expanse of the heavens to make a division between the day and the night; and they must serve as signs and for seasons and for days and years. 15 And they must serve as luminaries in the expanse of the heavens to shine upon the earth.” And it came to be so. 16 And God proceeded to make the two great luminaries, the greater luminary for dominating the day and the lesser luminary for dominating the night, and also the stars. 17 Thus God put them in the expanse of the heavens to shine upon the earth, 18 and to dominate by day and by night and to make a division between the light and the darkness. Then God saw that [it was] good. 19 And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a fourth day. – Gen 1:14-19

Now that vegetation/plant/tree life are well established (growing bountifully) – courtesy of photosynthesis coming from the sun, the heavenly bodies (sun, moon and even stars) are now observable from man's point of view.
So at this stage of the Creative Day – there's now clear division between the 12 hr day and 12 hr night. Thus the “two great luminaries, the greater luminary for dominating the day (the sun) and the lesser luminary for dominating the night” (the moon) can now serve as time markers on earth. These “two great luminaries” can now serve “as signs and for seasons and for days and years.”

Next stage: The 5th creative 'DAY'

“20 And God went on to say: “Let the waters swarm forth a swarm of living souls and let flying creatures fly over the earth upon the face of the expanse of the heavens.” 21 And God proceeded to create the great sea monsters and every living soul that moves about, which the waters swarmed forth according to their kinds, and every winged flying creature according to its kind. And God got to see that [it was] good. 22 With that God blessed them, saying: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the waters in the sea basins, and let the flying creatures become many in the earth.” 23 And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a fifth day.” -- Genesis 1:20-23.

At this stage of Creation animals of every sort was created - flying creatures, fish including the "great sea monster" and possible dinosaurs were created at this stage also (by the mention of “great sea monsters”).

Next stage: The 6th creative 'DAY'

“24 And God went on to say: “Let the earth put forth living souls according to their kinds, domestic animal and moving animal and wild beast of the earth according to its kind.” And it came to be so. 25 And God proceeded to make the wild beast of the earth according to its kind and the domestic animal according to its kind and every moving animal of the ground according to its kind. And God got to see that [it was] good.” Genesis 1:24-25

In the 6th Creative DAY land animals characterized as wild and domestic appeared.
But this 6th Creative “DAY” was not over yet. One last amazing and very remarkable “kind” of living creature was to come:

V26-28:
“26 And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.” 27 And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them. 28 Further, God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.” -- Genesis 1:26-28

At LAST man was created in God's 'image' “male and female he created them” possessing attributes and abilities far superior than the animal “kind” that God created – this “man”, this human “male and female” can reflect their Creator’s foremost attributes (of love, wisdom, justice and power).

After that they were commanded:

“29 And God went on to say: “Here I have given to YOU all vegetation bearing seed which is on the surface of the whole earth and every tree on which there is the fruit of a tree bearing seed. To YOU let it serve as food. 30 And to every wild beast of the earth and to every flying creature of the heavens and to everything moving upon the earth in which there is life as a soul I have given all green vegetation for food.” And it came to be so. 31 After that God saw everything he had made and, look! [it was] very good. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a sixth day.” -- Genesis 1:29-31.

Then on The 7th creative “DAY”:
God 'rested' or desisted from his creative activities for it was finally done.

“2 Thus the heavens and the earth and all their army came to their completion. 2 And by the seventh day God came to the completion of his work that he had made, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day from all his work that he had made. 3 And God proceeded to bless the seventh day and make it sacred, because on it he has been resting from all his work that God has created for the purpose of making.” (Genesis 2:1-3)

So to summarize the sequence of the creative “DAY”:

1) Planets, sun moon stars already existed (created) billions and billions of years.
2) Watery earth was formless.
3) Preparation for earth to be inhabited.
Day 1: Light (of some sort) came to be on a formless watery earth.
Day 2: Separation between waters above and waters below, expanse (sky) appeared.
Day 3: Dry land, vegetation, organism appeared and water basins formed (seas).
Day 4: Lights from the luminaries became discernible from earth. Days and seasons.
Day 5: Animals of every sort appeared; fish, flying creatures, sea monsters – dinosaurs.
Day 6: More animals -wild and domestic and finally man was created.
Day 7: Physical Creation stopped.

Interestingly science agrees with the sequence of events described by the writer of Genesis - proof again that the writer Moses received the information from a a source with knowledge of the events.

Science lists 10 major stages in this order:

(1) A beginning.
(2) A primitive earth in darkness and enshrouded in heavy gases and water.
(3) Light.
(4) An expanse or atmosphere.
(5) Large areas of dry land.
(6) Land plants.
(7) Sun, moon and stars discernible in the expanse, and seasons beginning.
(8) Sea monsters and flying creatures.
(9) Wild and tame beasts, mammals.
(10) Man.

Q – Do you know the difference between the words “created” and “made”?
This is also some of the key words in understanding the sequence of creative “day”.

Next, beginning on V4 the writer of Genesis describes for us what transpired when man was created “out of dust from the ground”. Additional details were given. In other words, Moses narrates for us the “HISTORY” of man when he was created under the heavens and the earth.

“4 This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven. 5 Now there was as yet no bush of the field found in the earth and no vegetation of the field was as yet sprouting, because Jehovah God had not made it rain upon the earth and there was no man to cultivate the ground. 6 But a mist would go up from the earth and it watered the entire surface of the ground.” -- Genesis 2:4-6.

Next the writer of Genesis tells us more detail as to where man was going to reside and a “command upon the man”

“7 And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul. 8 Further, Jehovah God planted a garden in E′den, toward the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 Thus Jehovah God made to grow out of the ground every tree desirable to one’s sight and good for food and also the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad. 10 Now there was a river issuing out of E′den to water the garden, and from there it began to be parted and it became, as it were, four heads. 11 The first one’s name is Pi′shon; it is the one encircling the entire land of Hav′i•lah, where there is gold. 12 And the gold of that land is good. There also are the bdellium gum and the onyx stone. 13 And the name of the second river is Gi′hon; it is the one encircling the entire land of Cush. 14 And the name of the third river is Hid′de•kel; it is the one going to the east of As•syr′i•a. And the fourth river is the Eu•phra′tes. 15 And Jehovah God proceeded to take the man and settle him in the garden of E′den to cultivate it and to take care of it. 16 And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.” 18 And Jehovah God went on to say: “It is not good for the man to continue by himself. I am going to make a helper for him, as a complement of him.”

The following verses (19 and 20 with 7) are the verses that bible critics claim to contradict with Gen. 1:24-26

Claim was:

Genesis 1....fifth day God creates beast and flying creatures... sixth day God creates man and woman...

… Genesis 2... God creates Adam and puts him in Eden... then creates beasts and flying creatures so man can name them... then creates Eve...

That is:

19 Now Jehovah God was forming from the ground every wild beast of the field and every flying creature of the heavens, and he began bringing them to the man to see what he would call each one; and whatever the man would call it, each living soul, that was its name. 20 So the man was calling the names of all the domestic animals and of the flying creatures of the heavens and of every wild beast of the field, but for man there was found no helper as a complement of him.

Well, I’ve already explained this on page 15 (2nd post – reply to post by wearewatchingyouman
(Hint – purposely left out v20 on that reply to prove a point)

But like I said, the key in understanding 2:19 is in the statement “was forming from the ground every wild beast of the field and every flying creature of the heavens”. This simply means that all animals were formed from the ground and that Adam was given the task of naming them. That’s all; any other way of reading it will be incorrect (which evidently what you did).

Here’s NLT:

2:19 “So the LORD God formed from the ground all the wild animals and all the birds of the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would call them, and the man chose a name for each one.”

(ASV)
"And out of the ground Jehovah God formed every beast of the field, and every bird of the heavens; and brought them unto the man to see what he would call them: and whatsoever the man called every living creature, that was the name thereof."

For comparison of Gen 2:19, other translations puts it this way:

KJV
And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof.
© Info

NKJV
Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name.
© Info

NLT
So the LORD God formed from the ground all the wild animals and all the birds of the sky. He brought them to the man* to see what he would call them, and the man chose a name for each one.
Footnote:
* Or Adam, and so throughout the chapter.
© Info

NIV
Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.
© Info

ESV
Now out of the ground the LORD God had formed* every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.
Footnote:
* Or And out of the ground the Lord God formed
© Info

NASB
Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the *sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.
© Info

RSV
So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.
© Info

ASV
And out of the ground Jehovah God formed every beast of the field, and every bird of the heavens; and brought them unto the man to see what he would call them: and whatsoever the man called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
© Info

YLT
And Jehovah God formeth from the ground every beast of the field, and every fowl of the heavens, and bringeth in unto the man, to see what he doth call it; and whatever the man calleth a living creature, that [is] its name.
© Info

DBY
And out of the ground Jehovah Elohim had formed every animal of the field and all fowl of the heavens, and brought [them] to Man, to see what he would call them; and whatever Man called each living soul, that was its name.
© Info

WEB
And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air, and brought [them] to Adam to see what he would call them; and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] its name.
© Info

HNV
Out of the ground the LORD God formed every animal of the field, and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. Whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.

The rest as they say is history.

21 Hence Jehovah God had a deep sleep fall upon the man and, while he was sleeping, he took one of his ribs and then closed up the flesh over its place. 22 And Jehovah God proceeded to build the rib that he had taken from the man into a woman and to bring her to the man. 23 Then the man said: “This is at last bone of my bones And flesh of my flesh. This one will be called Woman, Because from man this one was taken.” 24 That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh. 25 And both of them continued to be naked, the man and his wife, and yet they did not become ashamed.” (Genesis 2:7-25)

Gen 3 tells the story of the fall of man from perfection and introduced sin, sickness, imperfection and finally death.

There u go…full explanation

Of course in the end NONE of these matters to you because you’ve already made up your mind on what to believe (a mumbo-jumbo) – pick n choose what will suit your pre-conceived ideas.

reply to post by edmc^2


Easy, easy. A rational reasoning-chain isn't a sermon. It's step by step logic.

So why don't you return to the point, where the reasoning-chain (between you and me) broke for you, and start from there again.

And in just a few months, we'll have the initial hurdle of logic procedure sorted out, so we don't have to operate with:

"Why".....

....."Because".

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by edmc^2

 

Easy, easy. A rational reasoning-chain isn't a sermon. It's step by step logic.

So why don't you return to the point, where the reasoning-chain (between you and me) broke for you, and start from there again.

And in just a few months, we'll have the initial hurdle of logic procedure sorted out, so we don't have to operate with:

"Why".....

....."Because".

edit on 3-8-2011 by bogomil because: (no reason given)

jumping again eh?

so what is it this time now that I've shown your Gen understanding is flawed?

march of the world powers according to Bible prophecy?

reply to post by edmc^2


You wrote:

["jumping again eh?"]

If you can't find the place, where you broke the reasoning-chain between us, I can find it for you. The last entry was a request from me of which bible-interpretation method you use. What I saw in your first gen. 1/2 answers was very subjective, and thus possibly invalid for anyone else than you and other JWs.

Quote: ["so what is it this time now that I've shown your Gen understanding is flawed?"]

There are so many, that one at a time is more than enough to keep us busy.

Quote: ["march of the world powers according to Bible prophecy?"]

You know, that I have respect for your integrity and honesty, so I don't ascribe manipulative methods to you. But have you ever considered that an avalanche of words in all directions simultaneously only have rhetorical value.

We have hardly started on genesis 1 and 2 (where you initially joined of your own free will), and now you want to add 'signs and wonders' also.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by edmc^2

 

You wrote:

["jumping again eh?"]

If you can't find the place, where you broke the reasoning-chain between us, I can find it for you. The last entry was a request from me of which bible-interpretation method you use. What I saw in your first gen. 1/2 answers was very subjective, and thus possibly invalid for anyone else than you and other JWs.

Quote: ["so what is it this time now that I've shown your Gen understanding is flawed?"]

There are so many, that one at a time is more than enough to keep us busy.

Quote: ["march of the world powers according to Bible prophecy?"]

You know, that I have respect for your integrity and honesty, so I don't ascribe manipulative methods to you. But have you ever considered that an avalanche of words in all directions simultaneously only have rhetorical value.

We have hardly started on genesis 1 and 2 (where you initially joined of your own free will), and now you want to add 'signs and wonders' also.

edit on 4-8-2011 by bogomil because: spelling and syntax

Like I keep saying - stick to the Bible. Why do you keep bringing up religion? Stick to the Bible please and by all means point to me how I manipulated the scriptures to you.

Explain where the Bible went wrong if you really have understanding of the scriptures.

Since you don't hold the word of God in such a high regard what is it to you then?

If the Bible is NOT the infallible word of God what is it to you then?

If you don't believe that God created the heavens and the earth what is it to you then?

Since I hold the word of God as THE Ultimate Standard to guide us what is it to you then?

Who's manipulating the Infallible Word of God here? The one who holds it on such a very high regard?

OR you - hold who don't believe that IT'S THE INFALLIBLE WORD OF GOD?

Like I said - full explanation of Genesis Chapters 1 and Chapter 2 - but since you seem to imply that you have the correct understanding of the Infallible word of God, explain it to me then? By all means educate me where I went wrong in Genesis 1 and 2.


Side Questions:

Also how come you keep bringing up religion whenever the Scriptures are used? Then accused everyone of preaching and start insulting them. Then portray yourself as someone who is polite:

I hope, that you and I at least can ignore each others ultimate claims (napkin vs noodle-master) in a polite silence. I really haven't got the time to start a religious war just now.

Then start to ridicule?

I'm presently converted to pastafarianism (on probation), and on a: "It's true, because it's true"-basis I will consequently CLAIM again and again and again, that the flying spaghetti monster is THE truth etc.l

pastafarianism / flying spaghetti monster - so is the word of God a joke to you?

Is the "napkin" comparable to the Infallible Word of God to you?

I wonder who's manipulating the Scriptures.

reply to post by emdc2


okay... It's quite obvious that on Genesis 1 and 2 we aren't going to see eye to eye, and it looks like bogo has taken the torch... like I already said I'm not going to go into the details JEDP, and how it works with you, as it's not something that will be constructive due to your disdain towards the work of scholars... plus it will take much more time than I'm willing to contribute to this endeavor...

So I propose we move on to the logic of Genesis 3.... any objections?

Originally posted by wearewatchingyouman
reply to post by emdc2

 

okay... It's quite obvious that on Genesis 1 and 2 we aren't going to see eye to eye, and it looks like bogo has taken the torch... like I already said I'm not going to go into the details JEDP, and how it works with you, as it's not something that will be constructive due to your disdain towards the work of scholars... plus it will take much more time than I'm willing to contribute to this endeavor...

So I propose we move on to the logic of Genesis 3.... any objections?

edit on 4-8-2011 by wearewatchingyouman because: clarity

Ahh - there u r, I thought you went away.

clarification here - my as you say "disdain towards the work of scholars" are towards those whose agenda is to discredit the Bible. To them I say I will defend God's word to best of my ability and will do so with pleasure.

So what is it that you want to discuss about Genesis 3?

btw - just to know where you're coming from - are you an atheist / evolutionist?

These people just can not be convinced. As the Laz says: For those who know and have seen, no further argument is necessary. For those who do not know and have not seen, no amount of further argument is sufficient.

How do I know that the Bible is the infallible Word of God? It lies in the mathematical patterns. cycles, coding, and factoring in the original text. The Greek and Hebrew, along with many other ancient languages, did not have a separate set of symbols for numbers, so letters were assigned numerical values. That led to some rather arcane mathematics, but the important thing here is that if the number value is plugged in for each Hebrew or Greek letter, a coherent, multi-layered, multi-dimensional mathematical pattern emerges which is highly complex, so much so that it staggers a merely human mind. A Russian literary critic named Ivan Panin discovered this about a hundred years ago [before Michael Drosnin was ever born], and his work has never been refuted. He spent a solid fifty years on this work. His Numerical New Testament alone runs to some twenty thousand pages.

I say therefore, that the theologians, the "Higher" Critics, and most experts are totally irrelevant. Anyway, theology absorbs twenty-seven times its weight in excess reality. It's all in the numbers! BTW, that's exactly why "42" really IS the answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything. Forty-two is six, the number of man, multiplied by seven, the number of God. What could be simpler? I'm sure God ordained that bit of trivia.

Originally posted by edmc^2

Ahh - there u r, I thought you went away.

clarification here - my as you say "disdain towards the work of scholars" are towards those whose agenda is to discredit the Bible. To them I say I will defend God's word to best of my ability and will do so with pleasure.

So what is it that you want to discuss about Genesis 3?

btw - just to know where you're coming from - are you an atheist / evolutionist?

From experience with your publications and of discussing the bible with others from your sect, and trust me I have plenty of it, I would assume by "those whose agenda it is to discredit the Bible" you mean those who hold a different view of the Bible than you.... However, you have no problem cherry picking and quote mining those same scholars work to try and prove your view as you showed earlier....

As I stated before I'm what can more or less be qualified as an Agnostic Theist.... I've been to bible college... and though I alluded to it, just to be fair, I was born fourth generation JW..... My father is a missionary now, along with my step mother, but when I was a kid we worked in "needy" areas and on the building comittee... My uncle was just recently appointed a DO...... My brothers work at bethel and Patterson.... I have family mebers who claimed to be of the annointed and have since passed away... I have a feeling my brother will shortly continue this tradition as it seems he won't advance much further at Bethel w/ out doing so... My mom was DFed when I was a teenager...

I was never baptised and was never even officially a publisher though I spent more time in the field than most auxilliary pioneers and very much enjoyed giving talks in the TM school... I was always skeptical even from a young age...because of this my father filled up most of much of my free time with extra studies... although, thanks to the local libraries, all this really did was strengthened my doubt due to my cross examination of what he presented to me.... I debated much with my family, though never in public, as to not cause a stir or hurt my fathers standing within the organization...

When I turned 18 I told my father I would no longer be attending meetings and faded away for a couple years...this turned out to be a good strategy for someone like me because I still have a good relationship with my family and still enjoy such debates to this day... I never discussed my doubts with others in the halls... which cannot be said for many others who grew up in "the truth" and later left... it just never felt right to me... as they say honesty is the best policy, but some forget respect in that equation....

I'll get to Genesis 3 in a bit... have to tend to the kidddos...