The NA and AA program.

reply to post by Bokaforo


AA programs work for people who want them to work. The goal with any addiction is to not use that day, period and people who go to AA meetings every day, typically don't drink that day.

That being said, there are a lot of different ways to use AA. Some folks go daily, some folks monthly and some people go a few times a day. There are definately folks for whom AA is a total lifestyle, they only go to AA functions, only take members to things like a family wedding, they are AA. In my experience, they are a minority. Use AA the way you need AA, if you do at all.

There are tons of AA meetings and they are all different. If you don't like the feel of one and you still think attending meetings would be a good thing for you, find another. Some are nothing but bitch sessions, poor me deals. Others have 5 folks who talk at every meeting and say exactly the same thing every day. Some are over the top Christian, although the principals of AA are religion neutral. Some are only men or women. Some are positive, spirtual and fun. You also don't need to only attend one meeting. A lot of folks will split their time between a bunch of meetings to keep attending more interesting.

If anyone is telling you that you have to follow certain rules or do the program a certain way, they are liars. The only criteria is a desire to stop the abuse. How you do that is up to you. I know folks who have been to meetings and clean for over 20 years who have never worked the steps. I know folks who have worked the steps 10 times and are still basket cases - but they did the "program".

Point being, don't think by going to a meeting you're getting a real sense of what AA is. Its different and there will be one that suits you. If you don't need to go, don't. If going once a week works, fine. Once a month for a tune-up, thats fine as well. It is all up to you and based on your disease.

As far as the friendships go, there are folks in AA who have reached out and extended themselves so often, they are cynical and frankly judicious with their time. If they don't think you're serious about quitting, they will spend their limited time on someone they think is serious. One thing for certain is that they will welcome you back. Most of the folks in those meetings came in and out until they reached bottom and then they stayed.

At the end, if drinking or using is a problem and from your comments I gather it is, then don't drink or use. Find what ever tool you need to stop, because it is a progressive disease. For millions of folks that tool has been AA. Its easily accessed, its free and if you need help quitting, try to exploit it.

As far as the relapse goes, who cares. Everyone relapses, at least emotionally if not actually. Its part of the deal.

Good luck

reply to post by TLomon


I believe may people are becoming disillusioned by these groups.

I used to live on the same street as the cemetery in Akron, OH where Dr. Bob's is buried.
en.wikipedia.org...

Every year we would hate the weekend of Founder's Day as thousands of Harley Davidsons would roar up and down the street at all hours. If you ever saw the South Park Episode "The 'F' Word" multiply that by 10000.

Starting in 2009 the noise started to decree significantly. Later the local news paper stated that the tourism dollars show that less than half of the people that showed in 2008.

2010, Founder's Day weekend came and went without anyone realizing any additional noise. Once again the local paper stated much less tourism dollars.

Most claim it is because of the economy, but that is total BS because the true believers of Dr. Bob will do anything to show their gratitude. There are stories of pilgrimages from every corner of the world where people have made huge sacrifices to place one of their coins on the gravestone.

Was not in Akron for 2011 but friends state it was as uneventful as 2010 but this year the local newspaper raved about the turn out. Ad $ Talk

I had loads of problems in my 20s. I attribute it to hedonism.
I went to AA/NA a few times and thought the people their seemed somewhat over the top, with absolute definitions of addiction and abstinence. Due to my shame, i imposed my own abstinence for about 10 year. By doing this I isolated myself, which in it's self caused more problems than get drunk/high did.
I feel that we are all addicts in one way or another.Addiction is not about drugs, it is about not having measure, and the need to fill a void in your life.
Anyway after about 10years i questioned this title of "drug addict" and alcoholic. I have come to the conclusion that complete abstinence basically represses the urge to blow off steam, and can manifest other psychological issues.
I think we all entitled to our vices, we must however choose them carefully, and learn from our mistakes.
I am not someone who can go out for drinks and not get waisted, i avoid these situations.
If you do slip up, don't beat yourself up too much, as low self esteem is really the void that drugs pretend to fill.

When is comes to hedonism and phychonautical adventure, i have the following guide lines.

Weed - 1 joint / day
Alcohol - No more than 6 beers a week.
'___' - once every 5 years
Ecstasy - Only on new years eve (no Alcohol)
Cocaine - No more than 1 gram per year. (no crack)
Heroin - No more than 1 gram per year. (no needles)

If you follow these dosage guidelines, you can reach a steady state, with out too much consequence.
If you don't respect drugs, you'll spin out and f#@$ck your life up.

I am not condoning drug use,
but rather presenting workable solutions that don't deny the hedonistic imperative.

the NA and AA programs teach dependance. first you have to admit you are powerless and that you need to rely on an outside source for help or your 'higher power'. this goes against the truth which is that ONLY YOU can help yourself in a situation of personal addiction to a substance.

the system itself takes a person at their lowest most maleable point in their life. this is an important thing to consider.

You are to be commended for all your trails, tribulations and finding a way out that serves you. All your efforts wil be rewarded.

ATS is a fine place to discuss such issues, and you will receive a lot of support here. (most of the time, but apparently, that goes with it!)

Peace...Lazlo

reply to post by dolphinfan


Very well said. As a member of AA for more than 10 years I can tell you that most of what this person says is correct and I have had very similar experiences.

The bottom line is the program works and I am living proof. It took me a long time to come to terms with the fact that many people I relied on were at one time or another much sicker than I was and vice versa. So many of us continue to be even after working the steps.

I suppose the one thing I can tell you is that by working only the first 3 steps you only have a very limited understanding of not only what the program is about but how well it can work for someone who truly needs it. In my own experience only after I worked all 12 steps was I able to experience that "personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism" or however they say it.

For me, that was the only thing that worked. It doesnt mean it has to be that way for you or anyone else. I suppose if you really can drink successfully without the program then my hat is off to you - Ive had many friends that have decided to try it again with varying levels of success but usually they were the ones that stopped coming around...I was in the same place all along.

If someone is really "working" it than in my opinion they would still be there when that person needs help. Im sorry your friends havent been there but maybe this experience will push you towards further spiritual growth in the future.

I really do wish the best for you.

For what it's worth, my experience with the NA group was short lived. I enjoyed the messages and could relate to the stories I heard from other recovering addicts. I felt that if given enough time with the group, I would start to see behavioral differences with my own addiction issues. What did ruin it for me, was that being the new guy, I was immediately taken under the wings of a few guys, invited out for coffee after the meetings and so on. It became apparent to me very quickly that there was an alternate agenda with these guys. It ends up that the guys I was hanging out with where all homosexuals. I'm a straight guy, but a lot of my good friends are homosexual, so I'm in no way a homophobic person. That's their business. But to right off the bat ask me to hang out and spend the night made me very uncomfortable. I wasn't in a good place mentally, I needed help in the worst way. I felt the "safe place" of the meeting had been breached. I no longer felt comfortable in that type of situation. What could have been a positive experience was ultimately tainted due to what I would call sexual predators that had infiltrated the group.

reply to post by Bokaforo

Its just sad to me. Who knows maybe ill indulge in something else that brings me to my bottom but I honestly believe that I can prevent that. I am more upset at the amount of effort I put in. Like I said in a time of desperation they were there when no one was. I just live my life that way. I have been hurt over and over again but I will still open my heart and always be there for someone. Thats all I ask from anyone else. Love in this world is so hard to come by.

OP, thanks for starting this thread and for sharing your personal experience.

AA and NA's theme revolves around making individuals believe they are powerless against their addiction of choice. The organizations maintain their memberships by creating this illusion that if you don't stay in the program, engage yourself with a sponsor, and go to meetings for the rest of your life, you will ultimately fail. These two ideologies are blatant lies. You have control over yourself. No substance can control you unless you choose to let it. If you allow others to convince you the opposite is true, you will never be free of this relationship you have had with substances because you will always have an underlying fear that these substances are going to overpower your will.

Do not concern yourself with people in the program whom you believe have failed you in friendships. That is the past. Maybe those from the program who have let you down are envious of your ability to overcome your addiction without the use of the program.

Remember that you are much more powerful than you think. The years spent in a drug addicted state will strip you of your self-esteem because you spend most of that time beating yourself up over the fact you are addicted. Drugs trick you into thinking you can't live without them. But that's all it is.....a trick.....a lie.

Forget about what happened in the past. In fact, don't even worry about tomorrow. Focus on the now...right at this moment....and nothing else. You can do it. You don't need AA or NA.

reply to post by TLomon


This is good. I appreciate your point. It probably wouldn't hurt to take a gander at an Al-Anon big book. I had the meditation readings for all the groups and tried to read them regularly. Thanks again.

reply to post by NightGypsy


Thank you. I appreciate your view. I feel very much the same. I took a lot of time to pursue this program and to understand it. It certainly put some basic principles back into my life. Sometimes you just need to hear things from other perspectives. I look to move forward.

reply to post by Bokaforo


What ever happens...always know that we are there for you and if you want to come back or need to come back; we will welcome you with open arms.

this is my favorite quote dealing with addiction.
it comes from "Man Of the House" staring tommy lee jones as texas ranger roland sharp.
the scene is when he ask the other professor out on a date and she comes to the house.

Roland Sharp: I gave up alcohol about ten years ago.
Molly McCarthy: Didn't like yourself when you were drinking, huh?
Roland Sharp: Hell, I loved myself when I was drinking. It was the other people that had the problem!

this maybe how you feel, but when others tell you there is something wrong, and you need to put it down, and stay away from it,. you might want to examine what they are saying to you.

you might think you are just catching a buzz, but a lot of deep # can happen when your just buzzin.
been there done that, alcohol wasn't my only vice, many others were present to. alcohol was the only one that i got caught for.

reply to post by noisemedia


Thank you. I understand where you are coming from and more power to you if this is the way you found. I came to understand that steps 1-3 keep you clean. The rest reteach you how to live your life. I just like that even you can make the separation and give someone a positive outlook that does not have to involve the program. I am happy for you. I have no problem admitting that I was an am still an addict. I just believe there is a different way for some.

reply to post by whaaa


I do know this. I just want to believe and be something different.

Originally posted by Bokaforo
reply to post by whaaa

 

I do know this. I just want to believe and be something different.

I know...

So did I but life and circumstances kicked my butt again and I reverted to my old habits of pain killing and avoidance. AA doesn't have to be another addiction just a guide.

Peace and Love amigo!

So now you feel like the people you left behind due to your drug addiction. They needed you, you needed the drugs more. What comes around goes around.

I am sorry to hear that these relationships you depend on are no longer there. But just like no one can kick the habit for you, you need to learn to navigate life without that support.

They may still need the support, even though you don't. Everyone's journey is different. And they may have felt that the gap was too wide between you if you are no longer in the program. Maybe they felt you were not in long enough and didnt want to see you spiral downhill.

people come and people go, and many are going to dissappoint you. all you can do is make new friends and hope they are made of the stuff you need them to be.

I dont care how long you were an addict and why. You should probably still be going to the program.

Originally posted by nixie_nox
So now you feel like the people you left behind due to your drug addiction. They needed you, you needed the drugs more. What comes around goes around.

I am sorry to hear that these relationships you depend on are no longer there. But just like no one can kick the habit for you, you need to learn to navigate life without that support.

They may still need the support, even though you don't. Everyone's journey is different. And they may have felt that the gap was too wide between you if you are no longer in the program. Maybe they felt you were not in long enough and didnt want to see you spiral downhill.

people come and people go, and many are going to dissappoint you. all you can do is make new friends and hope they are made of the stuff you need them to be.
I dont care how long you were an addict and why. You should probably still be going to the program.

edit on 18-7-2011 by nixie_nox because: (no reason given)

For me its just more important to support people positively. I wanted positive support from my sponsor and brothers. I only got a bunch of negative when I left. I love what you said about finding some friends made of stuff I need them to be. That hit home.

Once an addict always an addict? Its just not easy to fathom this idea. I honestly won't feed into it. It leaves such a negative connotation in my head.

At least you're alive and breathing. Take the little things and be grateful. An addict, whether at age 22 or 50 is still an addict. To think you can sort of do things "in moderation" and remain in control of your addiction is just another lie we tell ourselves. I can see how those in the program would drop you once you went out to live your life in "moderation." The people in those programs truly survive by that "all or nothing" thinking." I'm sure you get what that means. Don't put it on them.

reply to post by queenofsheba


I never spoke of moderation like somehow that was going to be the answer to my addiction. Only that I could live my life without the program and be strong enough to make better decisions. I am not living a life using in moderation. In fact I barely use at all. I drink once a month. I smoke on a regular basis but I won't get involved in conversation about that. Some people just make it without it. I mean to take nothing away from the program and what it offers. I am just expressing the other side. My relationship with those people was more important to me than the program. Maybe that's where I went wrong.