Symbolism and its Uses

Detective - The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix. Seems that your witness, is incorrect Detective.

Who is my witness that you are talking about? The Swastika from Sanskrit does mean good.

ZZZ, you are just playing Devil's advocate. (no pun intended) If you argue that the hammer of thor is evil, then why don't you argue that the Eastern Star and the Inverted 5 point star is evil? Like you said, you can't have it both ways.

Originally posted by DetectivePerez
Who is my witness that you are talking about? The Swastika from Sanskrit does mean good.

ZZZ, you are just playing Devil's advocate. (no pun intended) If you argue that the hammer of thor is evil, then why don't you argue that the Eastern Star and the Inverted 5 point star is evil? Like you said, you can't have it both ways.

The "witness" was the website and the sanskrit translation they had. I know it was used for good but it has ALSO been used for evil. But does it matter? Put one or two on you car. You can just explain how it means good in sanskrit to all the people that have a problem, right?

Hello? Hello? Is this thing on?

As for the rest...well, you still didn't even get the point so it's not worth a response. Still, I give you credit for consistancy.

It is the Closed Circle which makes it evil, not the Swastika itself. It is the Invertedness of the Pentagram, not the Pentagram that makes it evil.

*LOL* ZZZ you made me spew cola all over my monitor, you really have a good sense of humour.
Now to the irminsul I could have sworn I didn�t see that when I read it the first time, now I am not saying or accusing you of putting it in later just that I at all didn�t see you mention it, and yes it changes something but not all.
Now you are not my teacher and I am not attending your class so stop referring to me as your student.

I have not said that the inverted pentagram is pagan, I have said it I a symbol of evil.
And Anti-Christian hmmm isn�t every thing non Christian Anti-Christian according to Christians?

Now is an inverted cross pagan, perhaps but not in Norse mythology.
Again you can�t take anything from the Norse mythology and compare it to Christian standards because the Norse mythology is older than Christianity.
You have to put it this way is the goat a symbol of evil in the Norse mythology, no it is not. And Christianity is a really bad example to find examples in; because they say every thing non Christian is evil as you your self say.
You also have to say what does the goat on the symbol represent, it represents the two goats pulling Thor�s wagon, now is the goat a symbol of evil, hmmm actually you are correct there, most societies that has goats compare them to destruction and pillaging. So you could say that the goat is an evil symbol but for reference the Norse didn�t have do many goats and we didn�t have herders the same way that the societies that considers the goat to be evil, but still you are correct in that statement.
The goat is a symbol of pillaging and destruction so other countries could consider Thor an evil god and there is truth in that, because Thor only helps he�s fellow gods and the Asa believers.

Example:
Thor is a good god to Asa Believers = But evil to all others.
The inverted pentagram is a good symbol to Masons and Satanist = But evil to all others.

Now please read what I write ZZZ I have not said that the inverted pentagram is a symbol of Satanism, I have said that the inverted pentagram is a symbol of evil used to SUMMON demons instead of repelling them as the true pentagram does.
To the picture of Thor�s Statue no it is a hammer you can�t say that Thor�s hammer is a cross and I have to say this again the Norse Mythology predates the Christian religion, so they couldn�t have put the cross of Christ in a statue of Thor, it would also be blasphemy to that and the statue would have been destroyed. The Norse where just as fanatic as every one else is about their religion, also as said in a previous discussion I haven�t said that the inverted pentagram is a symbol of the goats head.

THE INVERTET PENTAGRAM IS A SYMBOL USED TO SUMMON DEMONS
THE PENTAGRAM IS USED TO REPEL DEMONS

I know you aren�t misquoting me on purpose it�s just not so cool when I know what I have written in the other threads.

I have said that in the nineteen century the goats head is a reference to Baphomet.

And stick to facts I say the same symbol means the same thing I don�t say a hammer is a cross I say an inverted pentagram is an inverted pentagram.
OK you don�t say that the irminsul is related to Tyr and Ygdrasil you say it MAY be ok MYBAD!
But I say it is not related to Tyr or Ygdrasil it is a SAXON tree smashed by King Karl the Great in 772 AD, and has since been a symbol of power.
So irminsul does not represent Ygdrasil or Tyr.

"Odin�s cross I have never heard of that it has never been proven that the solar cross or the swastika had anything to do with Odin so that�s speculation.�
But according to you almost every thing in the Norse Mythology can be related to irminsul!

Again there where some unanswered questions I would like you to answer so I will try again.
You also say that Mj�lner means lightning were did you get that from?
And isn�t he�s belt and gloves also the symbol of power I mean without it he couldn�t use the hammer?


Baron Bilbo Baggins
Bilbo's Empire of the Neutral Zone

"The world only goes round by misunderstanding."


[edit on 13-8-2004 by NeonHelmet]

Inverted, that is, with two points uppermost instead of one, the pentagram has been used as a symbol of several different things:

The highest decoration for valor in the United States is the Medal of Honor, which is an inverted pentagram.

Feminist author Barbara G. Walker has reported that the inverted pentagram represents the Horned God of Celtic Paganism.

In the nineteenth century, Eliphas Levi stated that the inverted pentagram was a symbol of Satan. Levi interpreted the four points of the elements over the point of spirit as representing the domination of matter over reason, which Levi believed to be a characteristic of Satanism.

In the 1960s, Anton LaVey capitalized on Levi's interpretation: LaVey used an inverted pentagram on a circular field, with a goat's head superimposed over it, as a symbol of the Church of Satan that he founded.

Within some traditions of Wicca an inverted pentagram has been used as a symbol of the second degree of initiation.

www.nagia.org...

I am still having trouble finding info on how the inverted pentagram is "evil"
before the 19th century. Unless you are just saying that anything that doesn't fit in with your personnal interpretations is evil.

I beleive that the meaning is whatever the person displaying desires it to be. If I were to start a satanic cult and use the regular cross a its symbol, that wouldn't make all other crosses satanic.

I happen to be Christian, but I personnaly refuse to pray to a cross. The reason is simple, the cross is just a symbol. I pray to the true meaning ,that meaning is Jesus. You may say that the cross is a symbol of Christianity, but to me it is just a symbol. The word of god is the message,the symbol of god is just another symbol.


[edit on 13-8-2004 by Skibum]

Originally posted by NeonHelmet
I have not said that the inverted pentagram is pagan, I have said it I a symbol of evil.

Is not.

You have to put it this way is the goat a symbol of evil in the Norse mythology, no it is not.

HELLO...that is what we have been saying! Is the upside down pentagram in Freemasonry a symbol of evil, no it is not

You also have to say what does the goat on the symbol represent, it represents the two goats pulling Thor�s wagon, now is the goat a symbol of evil, hmmm actually you are correct there, most societies that has goats compare them to destruction and pillaging. So you could say that the goat is an evil symbol but for reference the Norse didn�t have do many goats and we didn�t have herders the same way that the societies that considers the goat to be evil, but still you are correct in that statement.

Isn't this paragraph the opposite of one of your quotes above?

The goat is a symbol of pillaging and destruction so other countries could consider Thor an evil god and there is truth in that, because Thor only helps he�s fellow gods and the Asa believers.

The goat on the hammer represents Baphomet. EVIL.

The inverted pentagram is a good symbol to Masons and Satanist = But evil to all others.

Now please read what I write ZZZ I have not said that the inverted pentagram is a symbol of Satanism...

Actually you just did in the top sentence of this quote.

To the picture of Thor�s Statue no it is a hammer you can�t say that Thor�s hammer is a cross and I have to say this again the Norse Mythology predates the Christian religion, so they couldn�t have put the cross of Christ in a statue of Thor, it would also be blasphemy to that and the statue would have been destroyed.

It should be destroyed. It's a symbol of evil paganism.

Again there where some unanswered questions I would like you to answer so I will try again.
You also say that Mj�lner means lightning were did you get that from?
And isn�t he�s belt and gloves also the symbol of power I mean without it he couldn�t use the hammer?

Many references list it as meaning "lightning", but on case I found stated it means "that smashes". Doesn't matter. It still looks like an inverted cross. The gloves help him hold his evil inverted cross and the belt keeps his pants up. Seriously though...does it matter? He is a pagan god and therefore evil according to the Bible.

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander
In fact, look no further than many Christian churches. Priests point their fingers at the sinners in the pews, and then abuse the alter-boys in the rectory.

Such an ignorant statement ZZZ, even though I am kind of used to such lines on ATS, I didn't expect them to come from you.
Some people who call themselves Christians are hypocrits, now what's so surprising about that?

On topic: the symbols itself mean nothing, untill someone gives them a meaning. Not the original intention of a symbol, but what it was used for in history most, makes people look at it in a certain way.
The yin/yang symbol for example, is not a very good symbol for christians as people linked it to new age and the balance of negative/positive energy in your life more and more.

Originally posted by Jakko

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander
In fact, look no further than many Christian churches. Priests point their fingers at the sinners in the pews, and then abuse the alter-boys in the rectory.

Such an ignorant statement ZZZ, even though I am kind of used to such lines on ATS, I didn't expect them to come from you.
Some people who call themselves Christians are hypocrits, now what's so surprising about that?

Are you saying that it doesn't happen? There are many cases of clergy abusing children. Just because they work for the church can the truth not be told?

As for poor old NeonHelmet? ZZZ, you're wasting your time. The guy isn't worth the argument. He's contradicted himself so many times and doesn't seem to understand the basics of any of the discussions he's been involved in. It's quite funny to see him defending pagan Norse mythology though. I reckon you hit a raw nerve there.

Finally, DefectivePerez. I've just gotta laugh at your statement that it's the circle that makes the swastika evil.
Really? You should go tell that to all of the hard right groups and the anti-semites who daub them on Jewish gravestones - they always seem to forget to put their swastikas in circles. In fact, I can't remember the last time I saw a graffiti swastika in a circle. That rather makes your argument a no-hoper.

Originally posted by Leveller
The pity is, that many symbols that are useful through their mathematical properties, cannot now be used for fear of being labeled evil. This has basically caused a dumbing down of symbology over recent centuries.

I totally agree Leveller!!!! I find it interesting that you were the only person who pointed this out and even after you did nobody seemed to take much notice.

I realize that most people here will probably disagree with me and hold on to their more 'superstitious reality concepts', but here is my opinion on the subject anyway.

Symbols, like the Pentagram for example, like the letters of an alphabet, are used to communicate ideas and knowledge. Throughout history the use of Numbers and Math, Geometry, etc. were considered by many to be the language of God. Those who understood it, used it as Science and such an advanced knowledge of the Universe was also kept secret by those who understood it as well. For they knew the power that came along with such knowledge and didn't want those who they were controlling with it, to break free or perhaps use it against them.

For those who can read either Languages or Symbols, are regarded as 'Kings, Leaders, Masters, Messiahs, Wizards, etc.' and are usually praised and worshiped by those who don't understand Letters, Numbers, etc. So, as you can imagine, a good way to keep people stupid so they continue to worship you would be to tell them to Fear the Evil of whatever knowledge may actually free them from your control. The Religious Controllers have been using this tactic for so long now that almost nobody dare deny it. Everyone just continues to see things as 'Good or Evil' based upon what their 'Controls' are.

There is nothing Evil about any Symbols, nor is there anything Good. Such 'concepts' are created by people as they give meaning to all things within the reality they are a part of.

Originally posted by Leveller
Are you saying that it doesn't happen? There are many cases of clergy abusing children. Just because they work for the church can the truth not be told?

Yes that was in the news a while ago.
It's just too bad ZZZ generalises and simplifies facts to death, "many christian churches" is ignorant in a double way.
1. The reports in the news were about catholic churches, not christian churches.
2. The reports were about incidents, not about many churches.

Such statements spread ignorance, and as ZZZ usually makes valid points, people with less knowledge will just assume this is another valid point, when it's actually the kind of comment that spreads misunderstanding, ignorance and negativity.

Originally posted by Jakko
Such an ignorant statement ZZZ, even though I am kind of used to such lines on ATS, I didn't expect them to come from you.
Some people who call themselves Christians are hypocrits, now what's so surprising about that?

You did get it right. I did generalize that statement to the extreme. The full comment I was quoting was about the recent crop of "mason-bashers". My previous sentence said "Usually it is best to avoid being suspected by pointing the finger at others, which has certainly happened in droves here recently."

Then I used that statement to illustrate the act of finger-pointing concept. That was not a factual statement or you know I would have done my research.

You are correct that I was not being valid with that statement and I apologize for that.

On topic: the symbols itself mean nothing, untill someone gives them a meaning. Not the original intention of a symbol, but what it was used for in history most, makes people look at it in a certain way.
The yin/yang symbol for example, is not a very good symbol for christians as people linked it to new age and the balance of negative/positive energy in your life more and more.

As for the topic, again...right on. Symbols cannot be inherently evil. It's the people behind it. That was the point of the thread. I'm quite sure you can answer the question that sparked this.

Is the inverted pentagram evil or is it just the satanists that used the symbol as a perversion?

Some just don't understand that Jakko, so I did get a bit outrageous and liberal with my statement.
Bah! I've been on too long today.

It's kind of like the swastika, well explained here:

www.luckymojo.com...

Ironic how a symbol meaning "goodluck" can become the symbol that stands for one of the most horrible regimes in mankinds history.
I do think though, that when a lot of people "abuse" such a symbol, it does change the meaning of the symbol.

It makes no sense to have swastikas on your T shirt and to tell everyone it just means "goodluck" for you. Unless you never meet other humans of course.

Originally posted by DetectivePerez
The Nazis Perverted the Swastika. Swastika is not bad unless perverted like the Nazis have it. Pentagram is not bad unless it is inverted and perverted.
[much snipped]
[edit on 13-8-2004 by DetectivePerez]

Ah, DP,

So we're onto something here. ..to be "bad" the pentagram must be inverted AND perverted (your words) So it's OK for the OES to use it with a point down because they're NOT perverting it. Right?

Originally posted by Jakko
Yes that was in the news a while ago.
It's just too bad ZZZ generalises and simplifies facts to death, "many christian churches" is ignorant in a double way.
1. The reports in the news were about catholic churches, not christian churches.

Uhmm Jakko,

I'm confused. You ARE aware that Roman Catholic Churches ARE Christian Churches aren't you? Perhaps you're confusing the word Christian with Protestant....and sadly the abuse of children by clergy in Protestant denominations happens too....we haven't heard a lot about it lately, but it's happened.

Of course it's happened.
Everything that happened in the "real world" also happened in the "christian world" because (surprise) the "christian world" is part of the "real world".

And no I think catholics differ from christians greatly. They may believe in the same God, but the whole idea of having a pope, worshipping everyone and their sisters instead of God and Jesus, and having these strict rituals and rules in church has nothing to do with Christianity.
Maybe I am alone in this statement though, catholics probably consider themselves Christians, I just don't.
Maybe this is something for another thread though.

Originally posted by Jakko
Of course it's happened.
Everything that happened in the "real world" also happened in the "christian world" because (surprise) the "christian world" is part of the "real world".

And no I think catholics differ from christians greatly. They may believe in the same God, but the whole idea of having a pope, worshipping everyone and their sisters instead of God and Jesus, and having these strict rituals and rules in church has nothing to do with Christianity.
Maybe I am alone in this statement though, catholics probably consider themselves Christians, I just don't.
Maybe this is something for another thread though.

You're right...this isn't the proper thread for it, but when you get time look up the word "Catholic" in the dictionary...and when you get time I'll be glad to send you some info that will dispel the belief that Roman Catholics do not worship Mary or any of the Saints, the Pope is a Bishop (like MANY denominations have...) etc. But again, for another tread.

Senark (an Anglo-Catholic i.e. Episcopalian...not Roman...)

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander
The goat on the hammer represents Baphomet. EVIL.

I just feel like I have to get out a few facts about the word "Baphomet" here (Sorry to use your post ZZZ, it's the first reference that I could find). I hope that all of you realise that the word Baphomet comes (ONLY) from medieval French. "Baphomet" was the way that the Medieval French pronounced the name of the Prophet (MPBUH), Mohammed (or Mahomet... see the similarity?). Since the French had little interaction with Islam beyond seeing as an invader in the time of Charles Martel, the name of the Prophet (MPBUH) was gradually converted into the name of a demon. This is not unusual, and is easy to understand. You can find reference to this fact in Peter Partners "The Murdered Magicians" and in Piers Paul Reid's "The Templars," I believe.

Originally posted by senrak
Senark (an Anglo-Catholic i.e. Episcopalian...not Roman...)

I meant to ask this before to an American, since I believe we don't have Episcopalians up here (could be wrong)... what's the difference between an Episcopalian and an Anglican? (No, this isn't a lead in for a joke, I'm asking seriously )

Originally posted by AlexKennedy

Originally posted by senrak
Senark (an Anglo-Catholic i.e. Episcopalian...not Roman...)

I meant to ask this before to an American, since I believe we don't have Episcopalians up here (could be wrong)... what's the difference between an Episcopalian and an Anglican? (No, this isn't a lead in for a joke, I'm asking seriously

)

Alex,

Because of the negative relationship that the early U.S. had with England (after the revolutionary war and all...) the Church took the name Episcopal (referring to it's form of government...by Bishops) Elsewhere in the world the church is called "Anglican" or The Church of England. The Episcopal Church, is however a part of the World-Wide Anglican Communion of which the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury is the "president" (many compare him to the Pope of the Roman Church, but he has no specific authority outside of England). Also, elsewhere the head of the Anglican "province" is called the Archbishop. In the U.S. he's called the Presiding Bishop...but it's the same thing.

I guess to make a long answer short the Episcopal Church, USA is the same, structurally, ritually etc. to the Church of England or Anglican Church.

An Anglo-Catholic is part of the "high" church portion of the EC-USA which tends to be more liturgical or ritualistic than the "low-church" portion. Parishes that are considered "low" church are more similar in ceremony to the Methodist Church while "high" church Parishes are more similar in ceremony to the Roman Catholic Church.

S&F

-John

[edit on 14-8-2004 by senrak]

1st I would like to start with one of my own famous quotes:

�The inverted pentagram is a good symbol to Masons and Satanist = But evil to all others.
Now please read what I write ZZZ I have not said that the inverted pentagram is a symbol of Satanism�

I am making no excuses for this, but I would like to explain how I can write something as this, I put the �and Satanist� in after I had written the post. It was to make the post look less anti-mason, Satanism is a new religion and I don�t think there is any room for it to be discussed in this thread.
Before we can make claims as to what a symbol means and stands for, it has to be older than the order or religion we are comparing it to, so you cant say that the hammer in a religion that is older than Christianity symbolises the cross of Jesus, I cant say that the eastern star is the head of Baphomet because the head of Baphomet is as you point out a French word for Mohamed and a new symbol at least in comparison with the knights templar and so on.
But that is not what I am trying to do, I am trying to tell you that in all societies that pre dates the first mason chapters, has seen the inverted pentagram as an evil symbol, a symbol you use to summon demons or at least the opposite of turning them.

Originally the example would have looked like this:

�Thor is a good god to Asa Believers = But evil to all others.
The inverted pentagram is a good symbol to Masons = But evil to all others.�

Now to the Satanist part I have explained the difference between a Satanist and a devil worshipper, I believe that true Satanism has nothing to do with Satan or Lucifer or Baphomet, but is more like atheism, where the devil worshippers use the inverted pentagram to call on powers or favours or what ever, but if the rest of the thread feels the same way I would like to get the Satanism part out of this thread and in to a more appropriate thread.

Now about the goat, no its not the opposite of what I said and you know it (ZZZ), I said that in the Norse regions the goat wasn�t something really evil it was a goat, but in many countries that had goats lots of them, the goats where considered a symbol of destruction and pillaging.
Yes Thor is a pagan god according to the bible also evil, but the bible is like me pulling references out of a marvel magazine, the bible has been rewritten so many times and is about 1000-1500 years younger than the religion I am referring to.
So no the goat on Thor�s hammer is not Baphomet it is a goat (*1). Is the goat evil? Yes it is, is Thor an evil god? to all non Asa yes he is. So my point is, are the inverted pentagram evil to all non masons?.
I have shown you many references to why the inverted pentagram is indeed considered an evil symbol by the whole world.

Again to make a point there are no such things as evil symbols, symbols are a means of communicating with the rest of the world, it is the people using the symbols that are evil, now I am not saying that the people using the inverted pentagram aren�t evil, I am just making my earlier point about what a symbol is, a symbol is still a symbol if I paint it or meld it in iron.
But for reference all people that have used the inverted pentagram was evil or was using it to an evil goal except the masons who use it for good and charity.

So my logic tells me this!

Symbol / Sigil is born / made neutral.
If all evil people use a symbol / Sigil it is an evil symbol / Sigil.
If all good people use a symbol / Sigil it is a good symbol / Sigil.

As a final statement I would like to point out some people are calling me ignorant, stupid, without sense of reality and so much more, but the reason it wont stick to me is that I have degrees, diplomas and awards, that tells me that it is not the fact, so unless all the friends I have are as just as dumb and the judges and teachers are also just as dumb as me, you would have to come with some more proof of my ignorance, I am not claiming I cant be wrong and masons isn�t my strongest subject so there are mistakes and errors but you name calling isn�t proving to anybody that I am in fact ignorant.

Baron Bilbo Baggins
Bilbo's Empire of the Neutral Zone

*1: Tandgnjost and Tandgrisner the two goats pulling the wagon.


�Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell 'em, 'Certainly I can!' Then get busy and find out how to do it.�