Symbolism and its Uses

After discussions here about the use of the pentagram as a evil symbol because of it orientation, I decided to do more research into the use of symbolism in general. After all...I have read here on ATS regarding the pentagram:
"IT IS WORLDWIDE A PERVERTION OF A GOOD SYMBOL!"

Now, why is this here in this forum? Many secret societies use symbolism and I feel it is definitely related.
Why are their no links? Because I did the research from various sources and wrote this myself.

Many other symbols have been used in different ways throughout history, but this doesn't necessarily mean that one use is the same as another.

The fish symbol (as pointed out on anothe thread) was used to represent various Pagan gods and goddesses well before Christianity adopted it.

The cross was used to represent pagan gods as well. It was used to symbolize the Norse god Thor, used to represent the sun in Assyria, associated with Egyptian Maat, their Goddess of Truth. It has also represented the sexual union of Isis and Osiris. In older times, a human would be sacrificed and hung on a cross, chopped to pieces which were then buried in various places to encourage the crop fertility. It has been used as a symbol of the Roman God Mithras and the Greek Attis. It has also been said to represent evil when used in reverse.

The Fleur de Lis, or the "Lily of France" was believed to take it's shape from a lily or iris, and to symbolize Mary and the Holy Trinity. It may even date back to use by the Merovingian Kings. But further back, it has been used in Assyrian design and on Greek, Roman, and Celtic coinage. All of these societies worshipped pagan or "evil" gods by Christian standards.

There were also various symbols associated with ritual magic, Wicca, or other related traditions which according to Christianity, are pagan. The cup or chalice, the sword, the pentagon, and the wand.

The irminsul is basically a "T" shape with the top ends curved a bit. It may be connected with the Norse God Tyr or World Tree Yggdrasil.

The traditional use of the hammer of Thor is very much the shape of an upside down cross. It is an ancient Norse symbol said to represent the legendary weapon of the Norse God. The hammer's name was "Mjolnir" which means "lightning" and symbolized the God's power. It was worn frequently by believers as a symbol of protection and it continued even after most of the Norse population had converted to Christianity.

The solar cross or Odin's cross in Northern Europe is one of the most ancient spiritual symbols in the world. It appears in many cultures such as Asian, American, European, and Indian religions. The swastika is actually a type of solar cross. Long before the symbol was taken by Hitler for the Nazi party, it was a sacred symbol in Hindu and Buddhist religions. It has also been used in Norse, Basque, and Celtic paganism. The very name Swastika taken from ancient Sanskrit for "Suvasti" meaning "good" and "vasti" meaning "to be". In other words "Be well". I am quite sure it didn't mean that for the Jews.

I had read also about the torch or flame as a bad symbol or an evil Masonic sign, but it is also the Emblem of the Unitarian Church and was adopted in the 70's.

A skull and crossbones symbol appears in Christian catacombs, as a symbol of pirates in the Jolly Roger flag, and has been known as a symbol of rebirth in Freemasonry.

Even the iron cross, a famed symbol in by the Nazis is now a symbol of a famous American motorcycle shop, West Coast Choppers.

Now, the pentagram. Why is it linked so heavily to evil? It has been used by almost every ancient culture. The Mayans used it. It has been used in India, China, and Egypt. It has been found on cave walls, in Babylonian drawings, and in Hebrew scriptures. Early Christians wore it as an emblem, maybe to symbolize the 5 wounds of Christ. The Jewish kabalistic tradition uses it. So has the Christians, Freemasons, Wiccians, Pagans, and yes...Satanists too. All used the pentagram at various times.
BUT, in thousands of years of history...the first connection to evil has only been in the 19th century, well AFTER almost every previous use of it.

Conclusion:
To label someone or a belief due to the use of a symbol is wrong. I have shown that many symbols have been used for both good and bad all through history. The Norse were not evil for using the upside down cross. The Nazis were not evil because of the use of the swastika any more than the Indians were. Labeling someone for a symbol is no different than labeling someone for the color of their skin. People display evil in their actions, not through symbols or skin color. This has been shown time and time again throughout history.

I hope that even one person will look at some of these and realize that symbols have been used in various ways, for as long as man has been around. Look past the symbol to the actions of people themselves. And even if those people have secrets, don't believe that makes them evil either. Every person on the planet has secrets to some degree, even from themselves. Wouldn't that make everyone evil?

Remember that Christianity labeled worship of any pagan god as "evil" and went to war with a great many people over it from the Celts to the Muslims. They used the word of god AND their symbols to enact death and destruction, forcing others to submit. Inquisitors forced "confessions" in the name of the church too using barbaric means of torture. Were those actions evil? Does the Vatican not have an immense amount of secrets and secret knowledge? Was Jesus not killed on the cross making it a symbol of an evil act?

By most people's definitions and logic that I have read, Christianity would be the most "evil" organization out there.

[edit on 13-8-2004 by ZeddicusZulZorander]

Interesting thread.
And I totally agree with you that labelling somebody over a symbol is a very silly thing to do. The thing is, the human mind has a natural tendency to associate symbols with the nearest thing to hand. Your example of the Swastika is a case in point. Nobody now would dream of using this symbol, yet prior to the 20th century it was a symbol for good.

The pity is, that many symbols that are useful through their mathematical properties, cannot now be used for fear of being labelled evil. This has basically caused a dumbing down of symbology over recent centuries.

And woe betide the person or group which uses a symbol which the mainstream has condemned in ignorance. It leaves the door open to all sorts of uneducated accusations.

If your research is correct in that most symbols have been used in pagan religions, then it wouldn't be too far fetched to surmise that most, if not all, symbols have been cursed.
So if an organization or entity uses any of these symbols in its representation, then it could be surmised that they bring curses upon themselves...
This alone could attest to the tangible power behind symbolism.

"Now, the pentagram. Why is it linked so heavily to evil?"

The pentagram is not linked to evil, the Inverted pentagram is.

ZZZ, make a list of all those who used Upright pentagrams. Then make a list of all those who use inverted Pentagrams.

Originally posted by DetectivePerez
The pentagram is not linked to evil, the Inverted pentagram is.

ZZZ, make a list of all those who used Upright pentagrams. Then make a list of all those who use inverted Pentagrams.

If you believe in the bible, you should not follow pagan gods which have been labeled "evil" by Christianity. The chalice or cup is used by witches, but also Christians to represent the grail. So Christians are evil?

The skull and crossbones symbol appears in Christian catacombs and used by Freemasons and pirates. Is that further proof that Christianity is evil?

The Norse used an upside down cross. Are they evil?

Indians used a swastika, one of the worst symbols in history. Are they evil?

Did you read any of the post above?

Some have used the pentagram (in any direction) for good and some for evil. So what? It's the people NOT the symbol that means anything. That is the issue here.

Thanks for an interesting post, ZZZ!

You've started me thinking now. Certain times & calendar dates also seem to connotate deep symbolism - I'm referring to events such as Easter, Passover & Ramadan, also the 4 solstices. These have meaningful symbolsim to the various faiths/belief systems that celebrate these.

Now I may be drawing a long bow here, but hear me out. "Black Friday", Friday the 13th, seems to have its own significance to many people, & is supposedly a symbol of adverse influences, commonly known as bad luck.

And as I look around the Secret Societies forum, I can't help but notice how many mason-bashers have come out of the woodwork in the hours leading up to Friday 13th, & on this "inauspicious" date itself. I smell a conspiracy here - another "secret society" that hasn't yet been uncovered, one that rises up & comes to fruition on Black Friday to achieve its evil goal of denouncing the Freemasonry organisation,

Scoff as ye may, all ye of little faith - after all, it's no more ridiculous than some of the wild claims that have been recently made in these forums!

edit - typo

[edit on 13/8/04 by Bastet]

Originally posted by Bastet
And as I look around the Secret Societies forum, I can't help but notice how many mason-bashers have come out of the woodwork in the hours leading up to Friday 13th, & on this "inauspicious" date itself. I smell a conspiracy here - another "secret society" that hasn't yet been uncovered, one that rises up & comes to fruition on Black Friday to achieve its evil goal of denouncing the Freemasonry organisation.

I believe you could certainly be onto something. Usually it is best to avoid being suspected by pointing the finger at others, which has certainly happened in droves here recently. There are numerous times & places in history where this has happened as well.

In fact, look no further than many Christian churches. Priests point their fingers at the sinners in the pews, and then abuse the alter-boys in the rectory.

I think you definately have caught a few of those finger-pointers here.

Originally posted by Bastet
Now I may be drawing a long bow here, but hear me out. "Black Friday", Friday the 13th, seems to have its own significance to many people, & is supposedly a symbol of adverse influences, commonly known as bad luck.

You probably already know that Friday 13th is the day that the king of France destroyed the Knights Templar and that's why it's considered unlucky.

No, I certainly didn't know of this, Leveller. Seems to me that maybe, just maybe, this date has some significance for the mason-haters & the trolls so evident here at the moment!

Originally posted by Bastet
Now I may be drawing a long bow here, but hear me out. "Black Friday", Friday the 13th, seems to have its own significance to many people, & is supposedly a symbol of adverse influences, commonly known as bad luck.

Originally posted by Leveller
You probably already know that Friday 13th is the day that the king of France destroyed the Knights Templar and that's why it's considered unlucky.

The Holy See, Pope Clement V had more than a hand in the demise of the Templar Order, his collusion with King Phillip IV met its zenith on October 13, 1307, a Friday, in which the members of the Knights Templar were rounded up, and imprisoned. Subsequently those incarcerated were subjected to the Inquisitor�s wrath, with "confessions" used in public spectacles to further discredit the good name of the warrior monks. This ultimately backfired when Jacques DeMolay, the elderly Grandmaster of the Templar Order, haggard from years of torture, renounced his confession, his final act of defiance earning him the sentence of being "slow roasted" at the stake.

Pope Clement V.

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by Bastet
Now I may be drawing a long bow here, but hear me out. "Black Friday", Friday the 13th, seems to have its own significance to many people, & is supposedly a symbol of adverse influences, commonly known as bad luck.

You probably already know that Friday 13th is the day that the king of France destroyed the Knights Templar and that's why it's considered unlucky.

you people need to come down off your high robot horses and actually get a clue about what things mean, the 13 is nothing to do with bad luck and everything to do with the occult!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, thats way the date the 13th was chose for the knights templar fable, thats why the OLYMPICS have started today, not by accident but by design by the secret societies and elite occult groups that control EVERYTHING, jeeeeeeez, how long have you been masons and you dont even know any of the basics yet.

What, the Freemasons control the Olympics? I wasn't aware of that. Go on, tell us how you know. Deny Ignorance then - I believe others here will happily admit to theirs [on the subgect of masons controlling the Olympics].

What do they get out of this - the food stall concessions & a percentage the ticket sales?

[edit on 13/8/04 by Bastet]

Originally posted by Mirthful Me


The Holy See, Pope Clement V had more than a hand in the demise of the Templar Order, his collusion with King Phillip IV met its zenith on October 13, 1307, a Friday, in which the members of the Knights Templar were rounded up, and imprisoned.

I always find it hard to classify Clement V as an authentic pope. He was more Philip's puppet than a holy man. History suggests that Philip had him installed after possibly murdering two of his predecessors. Moving him from Rome to France was also a smart move.
Still, there's nothing unusual about the relationship between Philip of France and Clement V. Back in history, most papal establishments were politically motivated and there was always a king or an emperor pulling the strings.

Punisher. Friday the 13th had no significant meaning before the Middle Ages. There is no reference to it being occultic or unlucky before this time.

www.coolquiz.com...

Originally posted by ThePunisher
...jeeeeeeez, how long have you been masons and you dont even know any of the basics yet.

How could a non-mason even proclaim to know the "basics" over an actual mason?

As for the 13 as an occult symbol is not correct. I would encourage you to look here:
urbanlegends.about.com...

Quite possibly (once again) it leads back to Christianity and the 13 Apostles, Judas being the 13th.

To say the it is unlucky due to occult is at best...a grand fable for children.

i never said the masons control the olympics, i was mentioning about the number 13. (reply to bastet)

[edit on 13-8-2004 by ThePunisher]

13 is a very old thing, (ancient knowledge), anyway i dont mean to derail this thread, but it was warrented as numbers are used in symbology.

[edit on 13-8-2004 by ThePunisher]

Originally posted by ThePunisher
13 is a very old thing, (ancient knowledge), anyway i dont want to derail this thread, but it was warrented as numbers are used in symbology.

I don't think you derailed it, as it is a symbol of sorts. By this post it seems you might be reconsidering the idea that it is just an occult thing.

In a great series of books (where I take my ATS name), it is stated as a first law of magic that people will inherantly believe what they fear to be true or they wish to be true. This model is applied in the book and the hero is to defeat an enemy simply because the enemy fears the hero's magic to be true. In fact, in that situation I descibe...the hero use no magic at all.

You can see this logic when an old lady down the street tells kids she will turn them into toads. They fear so they believe. Does that mean she is a witch or using occult powers? No.

Now, apply this model to symbolism or even the Freemasons. They tell you nothing so you fear the worst. They are a large group so you fear dominance. They could certainly use that fear, but look around you. Not one Mason here does that except in jest. That is an important clue...


Disclaimer: I don't announce I am NOT a Mason, simply because I never claimed to be one. Just thought I would get that out there for the people that don't know.

Hail ZZZ!
Good article I like it, not that I am agreeing with it you know me *LOL*.
There are some points I would like to make, about the Norse mythology, now I don�t know where you have your facts but they are wrong, one thing I don�t like is when my mythology is being misquoted.
Thor�s hammer is Mj�lner yes but it has nothing to do with a �T� or a cross when in fact you see Thor�s hammer, it is always with the head down, so if it is anything it is an inverted T, now don�t come saying this has anything to do with Satan because as you know there is no Satan in Norse mythology there is Loki if you want a parallel.
And he can�t be compared to Satan in any way, he aren�t fallen he wasn�t an angel!



Image taken from: www.mytolex.dk...

The goat head on he�s hammer symbolises he�s two goats that pulled he�s wagon.

www.mytolex.dk..." target='_blank' class='tabOff'/>

Image taken from: www.mytolex.dk...

This is a statue of Thor sitting with he�s hammer Mj�lner; again you can see it�s upside down.

So you�re �T� or Cross statement doesn�t add up sorry. It�s true that with some imagination you can see a cross instead of a hammer but it�s a hammer not a cross.

Now you are also saying that you �T� symbolises Ygdrasil well I think that Ygdrasil the tree of life and all it is cant be symbolised by something as simple as a �T� you also have to remember that the T isn�t a letter in the futharken runic alphabet,



Picture taken from: www.incendiboschivi.org/. ../yggdrasil.htm

So you see this is an simple illustration of the tree Ygdrasil, there are so many details in the Symbol Ygdrasil that you cant use something as simple as an T an say �hey its Ygdrasil.�
Ygdrasil wasn�t just a tree there is a long history to it the deer�s the eagle the hawk the dragon the roots etc.
And I wouldn�t be Ygdrasil without all those things.

Now if you can find a single �T� in this picture let me know!



Picture taken from: www.vikingworld.dk...

Here is a picture of the rune representing Ygdrasil now is this a �T�.



Picture taken from: home.earthlink.net...

Any way there isn�t any one rune for the tree Ygdrasil, but if you had to spell it in Futharken you wouldn�t get a single rune but about 9.

And how can you now try to relate you famous �T� to Tyr, there is no T in the alphabet your claims are without substance. The Futharken rune for the sound �T� doesn�t look like a �T�.

Now for cross checking this, remember I am referring to the 16 letter Futharken runic alphabet not the 24 letter.

Now you also say that Mj�lner means lighting were did you get that from?
And isn�t he�s belt and gloves also the symbol of power I mean without it he couldn�t use the hammer.
Now Odin�s cross I have never heard of that it has never been proven that the solar cross or the swastika had anything to do with Odin so that�s speculation.
But according to you almost every thing in the Norse Mythology can be related to the Greek letter �T�!


Baron Bilbo Baggins
Bilbo's Empire of the Neutral Zone

�Ask ved jeg st�, hedder Yggdrasil,
hars tr�, v�det med hvid v�de,
fra det kommer duggen, som i dale falder,
det st�r evig-gr�nt over Urd-br�nden.�

�Oak by I stand, name Yggdrasil,
Hars tree, soaked by white water,
From it comes moist, as in valleys fall,
There stands eternal green above the Urd well.�

The Nazis Perverted the Swastika. Swastika is not bad unless perverted like the Nazis have it. Pentagram is not bad unless it is inverted and perverted.

Good Luck Swatiska (Good) - www.khandro.net...
"The word swastika is Sanskrit and means "the self-manifested mark." In other words, it is a sign of self-realization. It is undoubtedly related to the wheel or dharmachakra, but the fact that it is not wholly enclosed by a rim indicates a potential for openness and movement."http://www.khandro.net/symbolism%20_toc.htm

It is openess, and not closed. Hence it is good.

Nazi Swastika (Bad) www.mysteriousworld.com...

It is enclosed in a circle which is the characteristic of the occult. It is closed, which is bad.

[edit on 13-8-2004 by DetectivePerez]

Originally posted by NeonHelmet
Hail ZZZ!
Good article I like it, not that I am agreeing with it you know me *LOL*.

Indeed, I do...
It seems once again, some of the point got missed but that is ok. We'll just call this "review".

You (and others) have been saying the the pentagram used upside down is evil, occult, pagan...basically non-Christian (or Anti-Christian for some of you).

I submit that the cross, the holy symbol of Christianity used...follow me...upside down is also connected to paganism. Paganism is "evil" according to the Bible AND the Church. Sure, they no longer kill the pagans...but they let you know that there will be no saving your soul.

In this photo below, I submit the using the cross upside down is paganism and therefore..."evil". It's in the Bible. Also, thank you for pointing out the goats head. Definately EVIL. You stated that the inverted pentagram is "evil" and represents satanism. Then using your logic, I submit that the goat head represents the same thing. You can't have it both ways.



This next one, you SAY hammer, but look at the nub on the top (or bottom). That is an upside down cross in the hands of a man with an upturned moustache. In case you didn't know...cartoons and early cinima always featured a villian with an upturned moustache. I say that is more proof of the wicked evil you are trying to supress.

www.mytolex.dk..." target='_blank' class='tabOff'/>

So you�re �T� or Cross statement doesn�t add up sorry. It�s true that with some imagination you can see a cross instead of a hammer but it�s a hammer not a cross.

I say pentagram, you say evil symbol of a goat's head.
You say hammer, I say evil corruption of the Cross of Christ.

Now you are also saying that you �T� symbolises Ygdrasil well I think that Ygdrasil the tree of life and all it is cant be symbolised by something as simple as a �T� you also have to remember that the T isn�t a letter in the futharken runic alphabet

I said it LOOKS like a "T" for those that haven't seen it. The symbol is actually an "irminsul". Maybe you missed that. It is thought to represent the world tree (or Tyr) just like you think the pentagram HAS to represent evil. Note in my description above I stated it MAY be related to Tyr or the world tree.

Finally, I never stated it was a "T" but that it was a "T" shape symbol. So, while I commend you for coming to class, you didn't pay attention. It kind of make the rest of your post, well....useless. But thanks for the pretty pictures.

Detective - The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix. Seems that your witness, is incorrect Detective.

Oh, and I DARE you to put a good swastika on your car.