A Reasonable Conclusion to Explain Pre-Big Bang Conditions.

Originally posted by disasternaut
This paradoxical idea of infinity is very intriguing to me, and I think I agree. That being said, I believe that awareness would need a source; something cant come out of nothing. Awareness in and of it's self would be useless if there wasn't a being to be aware of this awareness; if indeed it could exist on it's on versus the need of the formulation of awareness by a higher being.

I imagine awareness as a being in and of itself. Idk about you, you may not, and that's fine. But I think any living entity must grow from the process of evolution. It would be a strange miracle for anything from this universe to have awareness w/o it being made in the image of something that in its qualities or purpose lies an inevitability for awareness.

reply to post by disasternaut


Awareness would be useless without having something to be aware of. Even though it now has something to be aware of it is still useless. Does the painting of Mona Lisa have a use?
This universe has no use really, it is just a piece of art for your viewing pleasure.
When you are in deep sleep that is awareness aware of itself as the void, the nothingness.
When the eyes open in the morning that is awareness aware of itself as experience. Out of nothing came everything.
The void is awareness itself.

Infinite is everything. The problem is there is no absolute realm that is non-existence. The instant a consciousness focuses on the characteristics of what the absolute non-existence would present, that makes that non-existence a type of existence, thus self-annihilating it. This was the stone too heavy for God to lift. To be true to the definition of omnipresent, God must also "exist" inside of absolute non-existence. So It made it and finites are the linking mechanisms with it through the Door. Us and all that is finite both animate and inanimate over eternity. Evermore time is the Door.

reply to post by tkwasny


Could the experience of non-existance be like that of deep sleep? Even though we are not aware that we are aware of it, we do seem to enjoy it.
If infinite is everything then it must be no-thing as well.
Appearing and disappearing, something and nothing.

Quoting Peter Brown here is appropriate:

Leave the realm of the describable! It doesn't exist! You define your problems into existence, as well as their hoped-for solutions, thus creating an apparent difficult, limited reality, where none exists whatsoever. This actual, present condition is absolutely inconceivable; ANY way you hold it to be with your descriptions and ideas does not actually exist, and cannot in actuality limit or entrap you. Your imagined unrealization, confusion, spiritual obscuration, as well as the imagined enlightenment that you hope for as its solution, DO NOT EXIST! They are defined into apparent existence by your imagination. This actual condition can be clearly known as it is, but not if it is held to be this or that in imagination. Let go of all descriptions, and then what is this? You cannot say... ...but it is not nothing, and is wonderful beyond imagination.

For those in doubt.

Infinity can be anything. That includes nothing. But when you put something side by side with infinity, only a few things by themselves measure to be anything close to what infinity is. These things are what is infinite. Being infinite doesn't necessarily make you infinity.

Infinite and potentially infinite(P) things:
-Potential Energy
-Time
-Space
-Nothingness
-(P)Intelligence
-(P)Awareness

*If I left any out, let me know and we can have a debate about it*

Being the closest things to infinity as you can get. It is a safe bet that these were the first tools to be used by infinity in the creative process. And if you read my original post, you can see how all these fit in to the process in some way. And as for nothingness... well that's about the closest description of infinity there is, so I put my logic mind to work and determined that in fact, they are the same. It's not that there is a such thing as nothingness, nor is there a such thing as infinity. But there is a such thing as infinity/nothing. Do you know what I mean? Is it nothingness with qualities of infinity? Or is it infinity with qualities of nothingness? Neither, it is infinity/nothing as a unified concept. It really can't be any other way.



Do you know why energy can never be created or destroyed? I know why. The reason is because it isn't real. Seriously. Bare with me for a second here and think about it in the context of infinity/nothing. It's all an illusion. There was enough potential difference(pressure) in infinity/nothing, for exploration to be possible. The exploration began with the path of least resistance. That was awareness. Before awareness even came into being, infinity/nothing was already intelligent, because it is a systematic process to follow the past of least resistance as a means for exploration and onto resolution of the paradox.

So its not that energy was ever created. Its just that infinity/nothing became aware of a finite portion of itself.

I really don't need proof for those who doubt. If you could open your mind for just a minute without automatically dismissing this as false, then all you need to find the proof of this exists everywhere around you.

Any dualistic concept you can think of is UNDENIABLE PROOF that this finite portion of awareness of infinity/nothing that you call the universe is in fact JUST an image of infinity/nothing. ANY dualistic concept. One side of the duality heads to infinity, and the other heads to nothingness.

Originally posted by D1ss1dent
Quoting Peter Brown here is appropriate:

Leave the realm of the describable! It doesn't exist! You define your problems into existence, as well as their hoped-for solutions, thus creating an apparent difficult, limited reality, where none exists whatsoever. This actual, present condition is absolutely inconceivable; ANY way you hold it to be with your descriptions and ideas does not actually exist, and cannot in actuality limit or entrap you. Your imagined unrealization, confusion, spiritual obscuration, as well as the imagined enlightenment that you hope for as its solution, DO NOT EXIST! They are defined into apparent existence by your imagination. This actual condition can be clearly known as it is, but not if it is held to be this or that in imagination. Let go of all descriptions, and then what is this? You cannot say... ...but it is not nothing, and is wonderful beyond imagination.

i would give these remarks star and flag, they are really beautiful.

as to the original post of smithy's, it's just a mind intercourse and a totally unreasonable explanation for what is merely a hypothesis on the origins of the universe.

reply to post by smithjustinb


There are no 'things'.
Infinity can not be put beside any 'thing'. As you say it is everything and nothing. There is no room for an imagined 'thing' to exist ( i don't think there is anything outside infinity) to put beside it.
You are it and what you are seeing is it.
There is no separation between what is known(seen/felt/experienced) and what you are.
What is seen is the mirror and you are the mirror.
The universe, like you say, is just an image of nothing.

The 'not a thing' (nothing) is you and the colors and patterns and movement is every 'thing'.
Together this is what you describe as infinity. Everything and nothing. No 'thing' can appear without the 'not a thing' being present. Infinity has to be 'not a thing' and a 'thing' at the same instant to know itself.
That's it.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

There are no 'things'.
Infinity can not be put beside any 'thing'. As you say it is everything and nothing. There is no room for an imagined 'thing' to exist ( i don't think there is anything outside infinity) to put beside it.
You are it and what you are seeing is it.
There is no separation between what is known(seen/felt/experienced) and what you are.
What is seen is the mirror and you are the mirror.
The universe, like you say, is just an image of nothing.

The 'not a thing' (nothing) is you and the colors and patterns and movement is every 'thing'.
Together this is what you describe as infinity. Everything and nothing. No 'thing' can appear without the 'not a thing' being present. Infinity has to be 'not a thing' and a 'thing' at the same instant to know itself.
That's it.

edit on 18-7-2011 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

What is the difference in what I'm saying and what you're saying?

When you try to imagine infinity as one concept and nothing as another concept, you get to completely different mental images. You imagine two ultimates with opposite polarities so far apart from each other that they, at first glance, appear to be conceivably separate. That's normal because that's what the illusion that we are all subject to is all about. Separation. The very condition of this universe, including your brain, makes infinity/nothing an elusive concept, and almost preposterous.

But then you compare the two side by side, and you do in fact see that they aren't so different after all. And in fact, they are one. Firstly, they are one in their beingness as ultimate. Secondly, they are one in everything else that I mentioned makes them one. By thorough logical comparison, you can know that they are one.

reply to post by smithjustinb


I see a lot of similarity with what you propose and things I have proposed/written here on my own threads.

To share my opinion. The term infinite/infinity is a mental construct, and cannot exist in the physical. The universe could be endless but it still wouldn't be infinite. And if we assume infinite means Everything, then we must admit that infinite is paradox because infinite would have everything, including opposites. It's much harder to extrapolate anything beyond that. Good thread op

Infinity is all there is.

Awareness did not come in.
Awareness is not apart from infinity.
Knowing is existance.

Wisdom is knowing you are nothing.
Love is knowing you are everything.

reply to post by Astyanax


Correct me if I'm wrong, but the article doesn't state there is no such thing as energy, that it doesn't exist, rather that it is perfectly balanced with negative gravitational energy. So I don't think that disproves my statement that energy is infinite and perhaps directly because of this perfect balance of interposing forces it in fact is. I stated that energy has (perhaps) a measurable beginning and ending which I believe does correlate with the article and that it's continuous recycling makes it infinite. But I'm not a physicist.

It is remarkable that the universe consists of essentially nothing, but (fortunately for us) in positive and negative parts. You can easily see that gravity is associated with negative energy: If you drop a ball from rest (defined to be a state of zero energy), it gains energy of motion (kinetic energy) as it falls. But this gain is exactly balanced by a larger negative gravitational energy as it comes closer to Earth’s center, so the sum of the two energies remains zero.
...
If this admittedly speculative hypothesis is correct...

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
Infinity is all there is.

Awareness did not come in.
Awareness is not apart from infinity.
Knowing is existance.

Wisdom is knowing you are nothing.
Love is knowing you are everything.

edit on 18-7-2011 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

All there is is a finite portion of infinity. All there is is subject to awareness(all that is to you, isn't necessarily all that is).

There is nothing apart from infinity/nothing. Separation (duality) is an illusion.

Originally posted by smithjustinb
You say, "infinitely changing form", while I agree that Energy may be potentially infinite over time, or infinitely lasting, I don't agree that energy in this moment right now is infinite.

"Infinite over time" is precisely what infinity is.

Second lines are sometimes superfluous.

Originally posted by TravelerintheDark

Originally posted by smithjustinb
You say, "infinitely changing form", while I agree that Energy may be potentially infinite over time, or infinitely lasting, I don't agree that energy in this moment right now is infinite.

"Infinite over time" is precisely what infinity is.

Second lines are sometimes superfluous.

Total energy over all time is infinity. Time is infinite.

2nd

Originally posted by TravelerintheDark
reply to post by Astyanax

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the article doesn't state there is no such thing as energy, that it doesn't exist, rather that it is perfectly balanced with negative gravitational energy. So I don't think that disproves my statement that energy is infinite and perhaps directly because of this perfect balance of interposing forces it in fact is. I stated that energy has (perhaps) a measurable beginning and ending which I believe does correlate with the article and that it's continuous recycling makes it infinite. But I'm not a physicist.

It is remarkable that the universe consists of essentially nothing, but (fortunately for us) in positive and negative parts. You can easily see that gravity is associated with negative energy: If you drop a ball from rest (defined to be a state of zero energy), it gains energy of motion (kinetic energy) as it falls. But this gain is exactly balanced by a larger negative gravitational energy as it comes closer to Earth’s center, so the sum of the two energies remains zero.
...
If this admittedly speculative hypothesis is correct...

There are two ultimates. Nothing and Infinity. The only reason you can exist is because you are only aware of a finite portion of two ultimates. We will always be stuck somewhere in the middle of it all. You aren't in the past or the future, you are in the now. You aren't at the edge of infinite space, you are in the center of it, as I am in the center of it.

You have shown, and I'm sure you agree that total energy as a whole is equivalent to nothing. Then how is it that we experience something?

Well we already know that total energy is zero, and that total energy over time is infinity. Hereagain, it is proven that infinity and nothing are one. Energy=zero AND energy over time= infinity. The main difference is that at any given point, the total energy in the universe is zero and throughout time the total energy in the universe is infinite. So the difference is time. Nothingness exists at any given point in time. The only way for infinity to exist is outside the boundaries of time. But ultimately, all infinity ever was was nothing. Inversely, all that ever was was a finite awareness of infinity/nothing.

The differences between somethingness and nothingness are all a matter of perspective. From our perspective, we experience infinity and nothing as separate concepts simply because we do not have awareness of the whole. And the less aware you are of the whole, the further separated infinity and nothing become. The ground is nothingness. This is why we move forwards in time and not backwards.

The more you grow, the more aware of infinity you become. Also, the more you become aware that infinity and nothing are the same. This pattern repeats itself in micro and macro scales. Take human life for example:

The first cause of being born is the intercourse of a male and a female. The male impregnates(gives) the female(receives). These are the ultimate cause of birth. Just like the universe has ultimate positives(infinity) and ultimate negatives(nothingness). Infinity gives. Nothingness receives. Also, something(baby) essentially comes from nothing(female). Really the baby(something) comes from the interaction of the male(infinity) and the female(nothingness). But as far as something(baby) is concerned, it comes only from nothingness(female). Until that baby grows.

Now we are out of the analogy of infinity:nothing :: male:female, and onto the analogy of beginning:nothing :: end:infinity.

When a baby(something) is born, that vessel is a blank slate(nothing). The baby(something) hasn't even developed self-awareness to know what it is, all that it knows is that it is. It doesn't know where it came from, and it doesn't know where its going. Essentially, its mind is a blank slate(nothing). Then time happens. The baby grows. It comes from nothing and develops moment by moment in an unfolding of infinite potentials to become anything(infinity) that that somethings heart desires. Only to realize in the end, that this reality of somethingness was just an illusion being dragged along by infinity and pushed along by nothingness. The baby dies, so what happens? Well now we're talking about what happens when you die, which seems like a whole 'nother subject entirely, but it isn't really. Logically, taken out of the context of religion and NDEs, most people assume that once you're gone, you're gone and thats it, you return to nothingness. Well then what was that growing all about? Was I growing towards infinity only to realize that I was really growing towards nothingness, or was I just growing towards nothingness?

If I came from nothingness, and I was growing towards nothingness, then why was I growing at all? Why didn't I just stay a baby. How come two females couldn't have sex and make me? Why does it have to be male and female? Why do plants come from the ground and grow towards the light? Why don't they just stay at the ground? Is it because they
erroneously believe they are headed towards something? They are headed towards something aren't they, and its not nothing. Its a massive bright light in the sky that provides warmth and life. And ultimately, as I've said before, infinity can't be reached without becoming nothing.

Its like infinity is an idea that nothing can't resist. So say that you did die, and you became just nothing. Well. Don't worry. You'll begin again soon enough.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


something to think about:
imagine a person who is born without all senses - smell, touch,taste,etc.. he wouldnt even know if he exists

quote about meaning of universe:
".. concepts such as “meaning” and “purpose” are categories
derived from human discourse, and cannot be projected onto nature"

cheers

sry for bad english

Originally posted by griswold
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

something to think about:
imagine a person who is born without all senses - smell, touch,taste,etc.. he wouldnt even know if he exists

quote about meaning of universe:
".. concepts such as “meaning” and “purpose” are categories
derived from human discourse, and cannot be projected onto nature"

cheers

sry for bad english

What makes you think human discourse is outside of nature?

reply to post by smithjustinb


lol ask this guy, i was just quoting:
www.templeton.org...