Reality Defined by Physics - The Truth is Obvious - Only on ATS! The Mirror Revealed.

Originally posted by MamaJ

Pseudo rational reasoning and preaching won't do it.

reply to post by bogomil

 

Why not? Why can it not be up to the reality in which the individual relates in.If it is preaching then...so be it? I am just trying to understand your rationale as I cant mine.

I go soooooo deep sometimes I wonder where in my mind the "deepness" comes from. A sense? Not sure....but for the sake of argument I want you to explain yourself in terms I can better understand. I know where you are coming from but I need more specifics regarding the reality. Reality of the now is different for me as it is for you. So.....

If someone were to have a reality involving scripture to the Higher Creative Energy force and understand it in ways we do not perceive their reality is true to them and not for you or me..... This is what I understand to be "Reality".

For the reason that 'objectivity' (as included in what you answer on now), is a very precisely self-defined concept.

There are ofcourse plagiates, but formally speaking 'objective' methodology has a kind of 'copyright' on the label. It's hijacking or intellectual dishonesty to disguise something else as 'objectivity', and only make those doing it look silly. Enough people know, what the original is.

reply to post by bogomil


But from the "original" is where Reality lies.....to the individual who perceives it..? Each Reality "speaks" a different tone, language, and perception of the ALL.

Its all in the "mind" and the Truth behind the mind is a whole other subject based on the same thing though.....perception of the senses.

When you take out our senses.....what do we have? Nothing.

First one perceives through their own individual mind....reads something (like Scriptures) and then perceives it in the manner to which they read it based on prior Realities of their own truth. When this happens....the Truth is revealed and most want to reveal their truth to others. This is where the problem lies......

Collectively we have many Truths BUT......to the ones believing in Jesus this Truth becomes His Truth and there is where another problem arises.

Some will ask.....well why then did Jesus make it hard for us to understand the Truth? He says it is because we are not ready and when he comes back he will tell us the Truth. To some this reality of Truth is not yet Truth until he returns. To others....there is no Truth in regards to His Word....... This too is where a problem arises.

This above is why I THINK and perceive things to be the way they are today. This same reason is why I believe the Truth will be delivered because the scene is set for it.....in a perfect kind of dramatic way.

reply to post by MamaJ


You wrote:

["Also.....we live in a Reality of illusions and delusions so to speak."]

It's a model, I have personal sympathy for. But it can eventually be very complex, so I'll just let it stay with that.

Quote: ["The only way we will have the entire Truth in Reality is when we die or when Jesus comes back the second time as he promised to do and in this promise he states he will deliver the Truth as the first time he came he deemed "us" not ready to hear the Truth."]

I can see several other more reasonable options.

Quote: ["With this trust Reality takes a whole leap of Faith and in this Faith is where some find Truth."]

"Some", yes...subjectively. And may they find, what they search.

Quote: ["When people of ALL faiths pass on.....they all see Jesus (MANY videos and stories to read or view)."]

This is one of the most wild assumptions I ever heard.

Quote: ["When others share same Realities then there lies more Truth to them and even a confirmation of their own Truth of Reality as well."]

The same can be claimed from ANY set of theist premises.

Quote: ["We are not fit to judge our fellow man.....for we do not walk in their shoes."]

True.

Quote: ["What we may consider is not forming an opinion based on their Reality."]

And inversely and on subjective grounds not enforcing or pushing our reality on anyone.

Quote: ["Find what information fits within your own and leave what you wish.take what you may and learn."]

The problem being, that information is not only about recieving it, it's also about putting it on the market. And most of the missionary types haven't learned the difference between offering and pushing.

Quote: ["None of us are ALL KNOWING"]

Unfortunately not preventing missionaries to claim so (on behalf of their specific mythology).

Quote: ["Not until we pass on and even then there will me mysteries we have yet to uncover before taking another leap at possibly another existence."]

It would probably be nice to know everything, but there are worse things than not doing so. Concentration-camps and being religiously zombified e.g.

reply to post by MamaJ


You wrote:

["Its all in the "mind" and the Truth behind the mind is a whole other subject based on the same thing though.....perception of the senses."]

Where does christian mythology come into this?

Quote: ["When you take out our senses.....what do we have? Nothing."]

Not a valid generalization for everybody. I am e.g. exempted from it.

Quote: ["First one perceives through their own individual mind....reads something (like Scriptures) and then perceives it in the manner to which they read it based on prior Realities of their own truth. When this happens....the Truth is revealed and most want to reveal their truth to others. This is where the problem lies......"]

There are several scenarios different from this one.

Quote: ["Some will ask.....well why then did Jesus make it hard for us to understand the Truth? He says it is because we are not ready and when he comes back he will tell us the Truth. To some this reality of Truth is not yet Truth until he returns. To others....there is no Truth in regards to His Word....... This too is where a problem arises."]

Yes...some. A growing majority is completely disinterested in even considering this perspective as true.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by MamaJ

 

You wrote:

Quote: ["When people of ALL faiths pass on.....they all see Jesus (MANY videos and stories to read or view)."]

This is one of the most wild assumptions I ever heard.



This is not an assumption I made up my friend....this is Truth to them, the ones who experienced such.. as there are videos and texts written by the many....also the atheists who do not believe...some after experiencing talking with Jesus now have converted to now believing in such an entity and they all say they understand now what they must do....they all say the same thing. Coincidence??



Quote: ["When others share same Realities then there lies more Truth to them and even a confirmation of their own Truth of Reality as well."]

The same can be claimed from ANY set of theist premises.



It can be claimed from ANYONE...not just theists. This Truth holds for anyone who believes and pushes a belief.




Quote: ["What we may consider is not forming an opinion based on their Reality."]

And inversely and on subjective grounds not enforcing or pushing our reality on anyone.



I agree.....love does not create fear and the experience of Love is what we are to share if one believes in the message from Jesus. He taught love.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by MamaJ

 

You wrote:

["Its all in the "mind" and the Truth behind the mind is a whole other subject based on the same thing though.....perception of the senses."]

Where does christian mythology come into this?



When it is presented to the Mind.




Quote: ["When you take out our senses.....what do we have? Nothing."]

Not a valid generalization for everybody. I am e.g. exempted from it.



HA! Whatever you say.

Quote: ["First one perceives through their own individual mind....reads something (like Scriptures) and then perceives it in the manner to which they read it based on prior Realities of their own truth. When this happens....the Truth is revealed and most want to reveal their truth to others. This is where the problem lies......"]

There are several scenarios different from this one.


ok






Quote: ["Some will ask.....well why then did Jesus make it hard for us to understand the Truth? He says it is because we are not ready and when he comes back he will tell us the Truth. To some this reality of Truth is not yet Truth until he returns. To others....there is no Truth in regards to His Word....... This too is where a problem arises."]

Yes...some. A growing majority is completely disinterested in even considering this perspective as true.



And a growing majority may disagree with your perspective as well. Whose Truth is right???

reply to post by MamaJ


You wrote:

["And a growing majority may disagree with your perspective as well. Whose Truth is right???"]

I don't care about who agrees with me, how many, if it's a majority or not; neither do I have any especially strong metaphysical position to promote (and no theist one at all), but I do insist on a basic honesty, some knowledge and some competence when missionaries start their crusades.

I'm saying "no" to invasion; I'm not offering a dynamic alternative instead.

Not just turning on the megaphones and dishing out one-perspective, unsubstantiated, propagandistic fanatism.

The 'excuse' of "there's no ultimate truth" is non-sense, if it's used to preach an ultimate truth from. Just semantic acrobatics.

reply to post by bogomil


So you have a problem with people "pushing" their perspectives? Unfortunately this happens daily all day by everyone who think they have "It".

There is an Ultimate Truth, but for those whose Realities of Truth lies with Jesus Words then this is Truth to them as he stated that this Ultimate Truth will come when he comes the 2nd time. This is understood to be believers waiting on him not to be saved as he already "saved" us but the second time around will be "Truth Revealed". ALL believers perceive Words differently so in my reality he is to come to set the record straight....even if for only a moment in time and the ones who perceive it as the Ultimate Truth will not only hear but will also see it through the mind.

Most Christians have their mind made up of the hows and whens....they KNOW what they know and you cannot change their way of thinking. Not only is this a problem for the Christian but it is a problem for Science as well. A lot of people in general will not think any other way even if it was presented to them in a way to which they understand and it becomes knowingly evident that it is Truth. Hard headed, closed minded and ego defines their logic....

Studying the "spirit" of a man...any man is hard to do when time passes as their words and their teaching may indeed become corrupted by another's agenda. This is fact.

When this happens one needs to dig even more throughout the texts to find similarities within the texts. They use their loic of reasoning to come up with their own perception of the Truth. With that said, it is easy to come up again with a different view than that of the one sitting next to you also doing their own research of the texts.

In the end....when the vehicle runs out of gas, and then party has come to an end....Truth is revealed to the "spirit" and the spirit is set free of the burden. This is also documented MANY times in video and texts that one cannot ignore. One can only research and find their own Truth in it.

Again....collectively we may indeed have the absolute Truth...but still many do not care for the Truth....they care about Ego and fulfilling it even at others expense. Fear arises when the Truth hurts because it is the opposite for if we all had the Truth of Reality we would have nothing but Love for the Creation.

From my senses I see the beauty and the strange aspects of Creation......I happen to feel it residing within and all around me as the Creation is still ongoing. Its a wonder...a mystical experience to be here on a Planet out in Space, one that cannot be measured. With this experience I notice others sharing in the same(observing from another perspective), but its not really the same. Their senses show them another side of the Beauty.....its when others "realities" kick in, our Ego is lost. Once this happens (losing ego) fear (opposite of love) sets in. For this reason I see a need to NOT separate no matter how strange, how fearful, how beautiful another perceives it.

This is where unconditional love comes in...the one Jesus spoke of with not only his words but his actions to.

reply to post by MamaJ


You wrote:

["So you have a problem with people "pushing" their perspectives?"]

Yes.

Quote: ["Unfortunately this happens daily all day by everyone who think they have "It"."]

I too regret that.

Quote: ["There is an Ultimate Truth, but for those whose Realities of Truth lies with Jesus Words then this is Truth to them as he stated that this Ultimate Truth will come when he comes the 2nd time. This is understood to be believers waiting on him not to be saved as he already "saved" us but the second time around will be "Truth Revealed". ALL believers perceive Words differently so in my reality he is to come to set the record straight....even if for only a moment in time and the ones who perceive it as the Ultimate Truth will not only hear but will also see it through the mind."]

I don't share that subjective 'reality', and prefer to rely on objective procedure in such contexts.

Quote: [" Most Christians have their mind made up of the hows and whens....they KNOW what they know and you cannot change their way of thinking. Not only is this a problem for the Christian but it is a problem for Science as well."]

It's only a problem for science, when christians try to interfere directly with science. Otherwise it's not even an epistemological problem.

Quote: ["A lot of people in general will not think any other way even if it was presented to them in a way to which they understand and it becomes knowingly evident that it is Truth. Hard headed, closed minded and ego defines their logic...."]

I believe you are referring to a science, which a century ago felt it compelling to act as a belief-system. These days people can choose between subjective and objective methodology in a social non-elitist context.

Quote: [" Studying the "spirit" of a man...any man is hard to do when time passes as their words and their teaching may indeed become corrupted by another's agenda. This is fact."]

No objections. And science/logic is familiar with this scenario.

Quote: [" When this happens one needs to dig even more throughout the texts to find similarities within the texts."]

If you with 'texts' mean exclusively theist/semi-theist texts...good. In a broader sense of all 'texts' there are many epistemological perspectives to bring in.

Quote: ["They use their loic of reasoning to come up with their own perception of the Truth."]

"They" being....scientists/philosophers? I doubt many would claim 'logic' as an exclusive tool. It's an integrated part of science/logic, and what comes out is not surprisingly science/logic logic.

Quote: ["Truth is revealed to the "spirit" and the spirit is set free of the burden."]

Which is YOUR assumption, not more valid than the assumption, that 'logic' gets the last word.

Quote: ["This is also documented MANY times in video and texts that one cannot ignore."]

For one, I can and I do.

Quote: ["Again....collectively we may indeed have the absolute Truth"]

Or we may not.

Quote: ["but still many do not care for the Truth....they care about Ego and fulfilling it even at others expense."]

Then THAT is THEIR relative, subjective reality.

Quote: ["Fear arises when the Truth hurts because it is the opposite for if we all had the Truth of Reality we would have nothing but Love for the Creation."]

Sorry, but this is pop-psychology introduced in a situation of various epistemological positions.

Quote: ["From my senses I see the beauty and the strange aspects of Creation......I happen to feel it residing within and all around me as the Creation is still ongoing. Its a wonder...a mystical experience to be here on a Planet out in Space, one that cannot be measured."]

Fine; as long as you don't insist on this being everybody's 'truth'.

Quote: [" With this experience I notice others sharing in the same(observing from another perspective), but its not really the same."]

So...live and let live under liberal principles. It isn't so hard.

Quote: ["Once this happens (losing ego) fear (opposite of love) sets in. For this reason I see a need to NOT separate no matter how strange, how fearful, how beautiful another perceives it."]

No serious objections; maybe except to the restricting terminology.

Quote: ["This is where unconditional love comes in...the one Jesus spoke of with not only his words but his actions to."]

Also fine...unless the idea wants a monopoly, including a set of associated doctrines.

reply to post by bogomil


Ha! You are too funny!

Ok...so where Science and I have a problem is when they get stuck on old theories that leave their own community in a struggle. They can be so stuck that our intelligence gets stuck with them because they will not let go of OLD theories. Science is ever changing and the elders with their respect need to also respect the newer theories especially when proven. This is where I have a problem with science.

I have a problem with Religion as it separates all the same. It is stuck...has been....and will be until the Truth comes to us as promised.

Why do you not watch after death videos? What do you fear? Do you fear you may have to take a step back and evaluate your Truth in Reality? It should be changing as you grow...otherwise you too will be stuck. This is of course my opinion.

You have your own opinion that is subjective to what you allow to enter....or not enter your own mind.

reply to post by MamaJ


You wrote:

["Science is ever changing and the elders with their respect need to also respect the newer theories especially when proven. This is where I have a problem with science."]

Me too. I reject, what I call 'scientism' (the old monopoly-seeking extension of reductionist philosophical materialism. But that's well on its way to extinction).

Quote: ["I have a problem with Religion as it separates all the same. It is stuck...has been....and will be until the Truth comes to us as promised."]

There's a 'Truth' lurking constantly in your writings, seemingly waiting for a chance to get in through the backdoor.

Quote: [" Why do you not watch after death videos?"]

Mainly because I don't own any 'after death videos', secondly because I have 45 years of deep interest in metaphysics and already am familiar with the subject, and thirdly (to be honest) I am far too familiar with the very, very low objectivity criteria in pro-christian argumentation. Looking at the pro-christian sources supplied here, I'm ashamed on behalf of those making them and those using them.

It's so ....bleep...., that even a bleeped bleeper groks that it's bleeped.

I constantly offer to meet such in a 'reality-check'. The christian preachers and missionaries always make a disappearance act, intensify the preaching or start on character-defamation. I have yet so see a REAL scientific argument defending the pseudo-science (and similar pseudo-whatever).

(That's my academic approach to pseudo-science claims. I have another for 'invasive 'faith' ' per se).

Consideration given to me as the author of the OP grants me the flexibility. Anyone can comment. Oilse makes valuable points, answering the current topic. Considering he made the link on this thread, then conversation naturally flows as it should.

As I state in the title of the OP, truth is obvious. We stand for something or against everything with blame. Blame is the signature of those who look to others as the source of their problems. I'll stand on virtue and truth in deference to God. We are all free to define our perspectives in detail. Any message travels better if directed toward belief and not directly against another.

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
reply to post by bogomil

 

As per yorr reply, I suggest you read this LINK suggested by user Oilse. Very impressive writing and thought.

Drowning a thread in links to material, where the answer is made on assumptions and premises constructed to 'prove' something circle-argumentatory, is a waste of time.

They have the same (what's basically preachings) rephrased. If something is questioned the first time, repeating it in other words, doesn't make it more true. Overusing such a method only results in people ignoring such links.

Anyway a debate forum should be between individuals mainly being able to carry their own claims. Not just being a passive directory to external sources conflicting with each other.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


You wrote:

["As I state in the title of the OP, truth is obvious."]

On your premises, not those of real science.

Quote: ["We stand for something or against everything with blame. Blame is the signature of those who look to others as the source of their problems. I'll stand on virtue and truth in deference to God."]

Semantics and preaching. This doesn't mean anything, unless you already accept it passively.

Quote: ["We are all free to define our perspectives in detail."]

And we're all free to oppose it. I'm far from suggesting censorship.

Quote: ["Any message travels better if directed toward belief and not directly against another."]

Or directed towards rational reasoning, if the message is meant for public use, where subjective faith is of lesser or no value.

I agree. Humans learn by symbol, metaphor and analogy much better than technical writing. It's interesting to listen to a rational lecture come from someone with titles behind there name and then hear the same lecture in one sentence from the Bible or philosophy.

Example: "A smooth sea does not a skilled sailor make." vs... Link

The quote says it all. The link is handy, but experience is the best teacher. This is an example of how biblical wisdom works. It combines short parables that speak to the senses and emotions, leading to multi-layered wisdom defining the experience. The other is technical and does not speak directly to the heart in layers (still requiring the experience). Wisdom makes an impression related to virtue that rational logic misses entirely.

Originally posted by MamaJ

Pseudo rational reasoning and preaching won't do it.

reply to post by bogomil

 

Why not? Why can it not be up to the reality in which the individual relates in.If it is preaching then...so be it? I am just trying to understand your rationale as I cant mine.

I go soooooo deep sometimes I wonder where in my mind the "deepness" comes from. A sense? Not sure....but for the sake of argument I want you to explain yourself in terms I can better understand. I know where you are coming from but I need more specifics regarding the reality. Reality of the now is different for me as it is for you. So.....

If someone were to have a reality involving scripture to the Higher Creative Energy force and understand it in ways we do not perceive their reality is true to them and not for you or me..... This is what I understand to be "Reality".

I agree. Humans learn by symbol, metaphor and analogy much better than technical writing. It's interesting to listen to a rational lecture come from someone with titles behind there name and then hear the same lecture in one sentence from the Bible or philosophy.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


It was not written to coincide with the "now" slang/language of many..... nor was it meant for us to understand the message through one language. This is where one can argue the fact but in my reality....it is Truth. We cannot decipher the language in Jesus's time to fit with ours exactly so if Jesus spoke (as he did) metaphorically or in parables then all languages can read between the lines or have a better understanding.. Each human being can find truth in it...not in an every day type of language that we use presently.

For this reason Jesus used logic to satisfy his need for not one specific type of language but for all to understand within their own right and own language by using parables.

Maybe I am delsuional....lol....oh wait I am. I will be awakened to the True Reality soon though.

Semantics and preaching. This doesn't mean anything, unless you already accept it passively.

Almost got it right. This doesn't mean anything, unless you already accept it actively, engaging it into your sense of virtue and intent of action. The whole point is to have actions and heart agree with intellect in equanimity. When your future choices agree with your past results in equal harmony, peace and bliss follow. Anything else activates cognitive dissonance, worry, guilt, and worst of all, shame. The heart will always be in a state of dispair and unrest when rationality is led by the ego. Truth is always there to sear the conscience.

1 Tim 4

2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

Or directed towards rational reasoning, if the message is meant for public use, where subjective faith is of lesser or no value.

Faith is evidenced by hope for clearly demonstrated good as a result. We see the opposite in society each day when biblical virtue is rationalized and exchanged for the broader path of vice. Rationalization destroys what faith preserves. Evidence: Link The mirror reveals. OP title.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

You wrote:

["As I state in the title of the OP, truth is obvious."]

On your premises, not those of real science.

Quote: ["We stand for something or against everything with blame. Blame is the signature of those who look to others as the source of their problems. I'll stand on virtue and truth in deference to God."]

Semantics and preaching. This doesn't mean anything, unless you already accept it passively.

Quote: ["We are all free to define our perspectives in detail."]

And we're all free to oppose it. I'm far from suggesting censorship.

Quote: ["Any message travels better if directed toward belief and not directly against another."]

Or directed towards rational reasoning, if the message is meant for public use, where subjective faith is of lesser or no value.

Originally posted by MamaJ

I agree. Humans learn by symbol, metaphor and analogy much better than technical writing. It's interesting to listen to a rational lecture come from someone with titles behind there name and then hear the same lecture in one sentence from the Bible or philosophy.

reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

It was not written to coincide with the "now" slang/language of many..... nor was it meant for us to understand the message through one language. This is where one can argue the fact but in my reality....it is Truth. We cannot decipher the language in Jesus's time to fit with ours exactly so if Jesus spoke (as he did) metaphorically or in parables then all languages can read between the lines or have a better understanding.. Each human being can find truth in it...not in an every day type of language that we use presently.

For this reason Jesus used logic to satisfy his need for not one specific type of language but for all to understand within their own right and own language by using parables.

Maybe I am delsuional....lol....oh wait I am. I will be awakened to the True Reality soon though.

I was agreeing with you. It is universally understood by the humble, but foolishness to the world. I draw this from these verses and others:

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 1 Cor 1:18

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness"; 3:19

For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. 1:25

At our best, we are miles behind. At God's weakest point He exceeds anything we can conceive. Biblical wisdom will not apply fully to rationality, logic or reasoning abilities. We lack perspective of the larger picture.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


You wrote:

["Almost got it right. This doesn't mean anything, unless you already accept it actively, engaging it into your sense of virtue and intent of action. The whole point is to have actions and heart agree with intellect in equanimity. When your future choices agree with your past results in equal harmony, peace and bliss follow. Anything else activates cognitive dissonance, worry, guilt, and worst of all, shame. The heart will always be in a state of dispair and unrest when rationality is led by the ego. Truth is always there to sear the conscience."]

So the commonplace observation, that harmony is beneficial, 'proves' your mythology. It 'proves' buddhism, tao'ism, tantra and some parts of hinduism even more, leaving the bible and christianity rather low on the list of truth and applied truth.

And harmony in a greater social context is much better examplified and applied through utilitarian morality, which doesn't promote selective elitism or privileges.

Quote: ["Faith is evidenced by hope for clearly demonstrated good as a result."]

Amongst all religionists, in spite of the often big differences between their doctrines. So it's not the content of the faith, but just faith per se working. Besides there were also faithful nazis, who were filled with joy and hope for mankind as the genocide of jews went on.

Quote: ["We see the opposite in society each day when biblical virtue is rationalized and exchanged for the broader path of vice."]

You must live in a pretty awful place, 'seeing' that. I live a secular society and 'see' the opposite. You're simply making this up to fit your pre-determined answer.

Quote: ["Rationalization destroys what faith preserves."]

Yes, thank FSM for that. No more theocracies.

Equanimity in the English language finds its origin in the East--true. Our current world is built from the previous layers that came before. It is impossible to separate who we are from who we were in history. Like it or not, we are a product of our reflection. The Bible is central to our progress to this day, our freedoms and our technology. Other wisdom traditions, inspired by faith, virtue and struggles against evil are equally reflective of who we are today. Truth preexists us by infinity. We are well advised to listen to the wisdom of the ages and not discard it on the alter of irrational reason. Mans reason cannot compare to collective wisdom; wisdom learned by experience and trials. Faith is the hope leading to the overall point--love.

Physics demonstrates love by design and perfectly tuned laws. Its all here to tell the story of love from the reflection of degrees and opposites. As I state in the OP, we are the mirror of God.

Physics comes at a price. For free will to be given, there must be a possibility for evil. God is precicely what he reflects as he protects us from ourselves. History is His Story. We witness it as an education.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

You wrote:

["Almost got it right. This doesn't mean anything, unless you already accept it actively, engaging it into your sense of virtue and intent of action. The whole point is to have actions and heart agree with intellect in equanimity. When your future choices agree with your past results in equal harmony, peace and bliss follow. Anything else activates cognitive dissonance, worry, guilt, and worst of all, shame. The heart will always be in a state of dispair and unrest when rationality is led by the ego. Truth is always there to sear the conscience."]

So the commonplace observation, that harmony is beneficial, 'proves' your mythology. It 'proves' buddhism, tao'ism, tantra and some parts of hinduism even more, leaving the bible and christianity rather low on the list of truth and applied truth.

And harmony in a greater social context is much better examplified and applied through utilitarian morality, which doesn't promote selective elitism or privileges.

Quote: ["Faith is evidenced by hope for clearly demonstrated good as a result."]

Amongst all religionists, in spite of the often big differences between their doctrines. So it's not the content of the faith, but just faith per se working. Besides there were also faithful nazis, who were filled with joy and hope for mankind as the genocide of jews went on.

Quote: ["We see the opposite in society each day when biblical virtue is rationalized and exchanged for the broader path of vice."]

You must live in a pretty awful place, 'seeing' that. I live a secular society and 'see' the opposite. You're simply making this up to fit your pre-determined answer.

Quote: ["Rationalization destroys what faith preserves."]

Yes, thank FSM for that. No more theocracies.

Quote: ["We see the opposite in society each day when biblical virtue is rationalized and exchanged for the broader path of vice."]

You must live in a pretty awful place, 'seeing' that. I live a secular society and 'see' the opposite. You're simply making this up to fit your pre-determined answer.

I watch the news and it is evident. Good and evil are clear. Truth is the answer found in the law of loving-kindness to others--the central teaching of the Bible.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by SuperiorEd