Out of body all in the mind?

Originally posted by aching_knuckles
I didnt see any proof posted, so I dont know why this is "news"....it was all just one big speculative story. Go through the article and find where they mention the study they did...thats right, they didnt. It is merely the opinion of the "researchers" at Birmingham.

OBE or Astral Projection is probably the easiest paranormal experience that could be proven without doubt.

However, despite all the research and experiments done over the years those who claim to be able to do it have failed miserably. This is sufficient proof it is a myth, a fallacy triggered by an exotic dream state.

The onus is upon the believers to try and turn the tables and prove it exists scientifically, not anecdotally. To date no one has achieved this.

reply to post by outerlimits


just wanted to throw in -From my own knowledge it would make sense that a NDE is an example of OBE, but an OBE does not only occur near death.

Originally posted by torsion

OBE or Astral Projection is probably the easiest paranormal experience that could be proven without doubt.

Really? How so?

However, despite all the research and experiments done over the years those who claim to be able to do it have failed miserably.

Failed to do what, have OBEs? I dont think you have evidence of that. So failed to do what?

This is sufficient proof it is a myth, a fallacy triggered by an exotic dream state.

Well thats a deeply unscientific conclusion. Present 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'. Its 'proof' of nothing of the sort.

The onus is upon the believers to try and turn the tables and prove it exists scientifically, not
anecdotally. To date no one has achieved this.

You present a biased and antagonistic scenario in which scientists are supposedly uniformly against the notion of OBEs as real and opposing OBEers. That, IMO, just reflects your personal prejudice. The situation is that we have countless people reporting a phenomena with many otherwise inexplicable characteristics (evidence you wholly ignore) which has intrigued many scientists. That their tools for investigation have not yet proved adequate to get to the bottom of the matter and reach a conclusion, either way, is the scientists problem, one which they will find a solution for in time because thankfully, there are many scientists who are not biased and are eager to open mindedly investigate rather than adopt an antagonistic, prejudiced position of denial as you you have. They are interested in developing tools and methods to begin to get to grips with this phenomena, rather than smugly folding their arms and saying 'Its your job to prove it to me. I say its BS.'

As I understand it, the scientists are not saying there is no such things as OBEs. What they do seem to claim, however, is that those 'feelings' of literally leaving the body are nothing more than (essentially) neurons firing.


*For those who may not be familiar with the two concepts I'm about to mention, I will briefly explain them.

The Problem of Interaction is a philosophical pondering which goes something like this: If there exists some kind of immaterial substance (i.e., the soul), how can it interact with a purely physical reality (i.e., the known universe). To believe in OBEs, you have to assert that 1) we have a soul or some kind of immaterial essence and 2) That essence can 'disconnect' from our bodies and traverse dimensions/the Universe.

Dualism is essentially the belief that there is more than a merely physical universe - an immaterial universe or dimensions or whatever exists as well. To believe in OBEs, one must have a kind of Dualist belief.

Now, my own two cents. Until you can show me a reasonable explanation for the Problem of Interaction - that is, some way of showing me that it makes sense to talk about immaterial and material things connecting and causing and effecting each other - or a reasonable argument/evidence for Dualism, I cannot believe in such an extraordinary claim as OBEs being anything more than neurons firing.

I keep on seeing people in here mentioning that scientists don't know anything about obe's, or nde's, and that scientists cannot proof this is not so. I have linked numerous articles, a very in depth one too, that discuss this in detail.

Yet, some people still claim this phenomenon is real.

If we had to use your argument, that scientists do not know very much about how the mind operates, that same argument can be used against you. For how do we know that it is not all just in the mind, a mere imaginary thing, a lucid dream perhaps even.

I geuss i have to experience it for myself, to be able to say. But, it seems however that the argument might just go in circles. It is one of those things, that cannot be proven as fact, but also cannot be proven that it is real.

vvv

Originally posted by Malcram
Originally posted by torsion

OBE or Astral Projection is probably the easiest paranormal experience that could be proven without doubt.


Really? How so?

People claim they are able to do it. Have them partake in a controlled experiment and repeatedly identify objects in a closed room. It's straightforward if they can do what they claim. Such experiments have been done and the results have shown that nothing paranormal occurred.

However, despite all the research and experiments done over the years those who claim to be able to do it have failed miserably.

Failed to do what, have OBEs? I dont think you have evidence of that. So failed to do what?

Failed to provided anything other than anecdotal evidence that they had a paranormal experience.

This is sufficient proof it is a myth, a fallacy triggered by an exotic dream state.

Well thats a deeply unscientific conclusion. Present 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'. Its 'proof' of nothing of the sort.

As not one person who claims they can do it can demonstrate they can do it is sufficient evidence that it is nothing more than imagination. That will change, of course, once the OBErs can prove their claims. The ball is in their court.

reply to post by torsion


No, the ball is in everyones court who is intetested in categorically establishing the truth, scientists, OBEers and genuinely openminded observers alike. Your stance is an antagonistic one because you are clearly prejudiced against the notion. Your lack of openmindedness is palpable.

It is the job of scientists to clearly understand what OBEers claim the phenomena is, its nature, which your comments demonstrate you have no clue about, and also to develop methods to investigate this phenomena In accord with its reported nature, rather than according to what they, with no experience, assume or imagine it to be.

Its not OBEers job to develop suitable methods of scientifically addressing the phenomena, its science's - if they want to know the truth rather than simply look to confirm their bias.

Its like scientists using school lab microscopes to investigate quantum claims then saying their investigation proved there was no quantum phenomena when the reality is their tools weren't suitable for the investigation

OBE is, in that metaphorical (and perhaps literal sense, who knows?) a 'quantum' event. It can't be investigated purely 'classically'.

This is a case of science being slow, as is often the case, to find methods of investigating and confirming what centuries of global experience has always known.

To those who already know and have experienced, your arrogant dismissal is not merely frustrating, but deeply embarassing - for you. Except that you are oblivious and we feel it on your behalf.

Originally posted by torsion
As not one person who claims they can do it can demonstrate they can do it is sufficient evidence that it is nothing more than imagination. That will change, of course, once the OBErs can prove their claims. The ball is in their court.

Has it occured to any naysayers yet that those who regularly go OBE willingly have no NEED to Prove anything to anyone?

So some people think it is BS... so what?

So scientific types think it is BS.. who cares?

To the naysayers.....

Does it matter if a person says they go OBE regularly?

If it matters to you then I would like to know why?

Why is it so important to force your view onto others?

Why is it so important to you to make them wrong in the public's eyes?

Seriously folks..the infant-like Science of man has a very long way to go to understanding much at all really.... let's see what it brings to the table in 50 or 100 or 500 more years.. when it starts to crawl before walking.

We so easily forget in our egotistic approaches to Life on Earth that what each of us thinks is only Opinion, some of it based on Beliefs.. caused by Cultural Indoctrination, some of it caused by homogenised education and yes even academia who play the "I know better" card far too often for their own good.

reply to post by Alexander_Supertramp


So, how do you feel about the fact that matter is energy and that matter has a quantum basis with laws quite different to classical physical reality, although there is some 'interaction'. They are inextricably linked, a continuum rather than two separate things.

Do you see how a similar understanding might relate to OBEs and resove the issues you have with a supposed problem of interaction and 'duality'?

Originally posted by Malcram
reply to post by torsion

 

No, the ball is in everyones court who is intetested in categorically establishing the truth, scientists, OBEers and genuinely openminded observers alike.

OBE isn't a new thing. Perhaps it's something you've recently become aware of and acquired an interest in but it's been around for a long time.

Your stance is an antagonistic one because you are clearly prejudiced against the notion. Your lack of openmindedness is palpable.

That's just your misguided perception. I partook in controlled experiments involving OBE and Remote Viewing in the 70s/80s. Like most people I'd like it to be real but I'm not gullible enough just to take someone's word for it.

It is the job of scientists to clearly understand what OBEers claim the phenomena is, its nature, which your comments demonstrate you have no clue about, and also to develop methods to investigate this phenomena In accord with its reported nature, rather than according to what they, with no experience, assume or imagine it to be.

Again, your misguided perception. Like I said it's not a new phenomena. People have been studying it and testing the theories. The results always come back the same.

Its not OBEers job to develop suitable methods of scientifically addressing the phenomena,

It is if they want to be taken seriously. As I said before they can easily prove their attested abilities if what they say is true. None have been able to do so. Why would this be so?

... its science's - if they want to know the truth rather than simply look to confirm their bias.

Why is seeking evidence bias?

OBE is, in that metaphorical (and perhaps literal sense, who knows?) a 'quantum' event. It can't be investigated purely 'classically'.

Oh what a simplistic cop out.

To those who already know and have experienced, your arrogant dismissal is not merely frustrating, but deeply embarassing - for you.

Instead of making assumptions why not astrally project to my current location and see if I'm embarrassed?

reply to post by Alexander_Supertramp


We can't even make sense of the duality of General relativity and Quantum mechanics, much less make sense of hypercosmic interactions.

When we come up with a Unified theory, we just might start to get a glimpse of the why and how much of this anomalous phenomena works.

I would really like to think astral projection is a bona fide thing, as exciting & entertaining as it sounds like, but I have to look at it more scientifically like we do with NDE's. From my personal point of view, I do not think either exists beyond biochemical reactions & events in the brain. If I were to say either one exists, I'd also have to say that every place I visit in my dreams also exists. Boy, I would love for that to be, but I highly doubt it. There is a reason I look forward to my dreams--my unconscious mind takes me to places far more exotic & beautiful than Earth boasts, with civilizations infinitely more intriguing. They aren't real places in real life, but they exist when I sleep. I think if I really wanted to believe they are all real locations and real people, I could just as easily argue that I'm traveling to their physical locations in my dreams. However, I do not see the logic, since so many of my every day experiences, and even items, are woven in them
If my dreams can bring me an exciting escape, comfort, a vacation of sorts, a different point of view on a real-life problem, et cetera, then I see no difference between that and OBE's/NDE's, other than the bodily processes that get you there. They too bring the individual some sense of wonder, clarity, perspective on a problem, et al.
The body is a stinkin' neat vessel, but it's not magical. Perhaps these processes are really not much more than simple built-in coping/processing mechanisms. It would make sense, considering the after effects of a powerful dream, a OBE or a NDE.

reply to post by Nyiah


Nope. You are wrong

I'm not sure if OBE are real or not but I'm 100% sure this study neither proves or disproves they aren't real.

As another poster said, this could be rephrased to conclude they are real. Without the bias someone could used it prove there is a change in brain function during OBE.

What seems strange about this is if there was a disruption, why do people in near death experiences float over their bodies. This requires the brain to have perspective in terms of where the body is located.

reply to post by Nyiah

Nicely said

One thing. I keep seeing people equating Mind with Spirit and honestly thinking/believing them to be the same thing. And here lay the fundamental problem.

We are coming to understand a little more of the human neck-top bio-computer and it's operating system.. Mind. In so doing we are confusing ourselves into Believing it is the same thing as the Intelligence using the "appliance".

Science has been wonderful for us so far, admittedly, but we are still a long leap away from understanding the interface between our physical matter and Awareness/intelligence/spirit/driver of the vehicle.

Most of academia will tend to dismiss the concept that a "driver" exists to operate the Vehicle, preferring instead to Believe it all ONLY electro-chemical reactions in the bio-computer.

Despite this way of thinking, there is a large body of information throughout human history with insight into the concept of driver and vehicle. If the gems from this could be included in the thinking process we may develop methodology to obtain positive results.

Until then a divide will exist between academia and the experiencers.

reply to post by Nyiah


you are soooooo wrong it would be nice if all the people on this thread who are claiming its all triggered by events in the brain, (a fallacy) etc. would have experienced an OBE or NDE themselves. Then i would view your opinions as valid. However i've experienced both an OBE and an NDE which included an OBE....let me tell you, these scientists are idiots, and those of you supporting their claims, you haven't the slightest idea what your talking about i believe completely that some OBE's are caused by events in the brain firing off. However others are PROVEN that this cannot be the case. Such as my own. Go have one for yourself, then come back here and claim it's all in the mind

Originally posted by Tayesin

Originally posted by torsion
As not one person who claims they can do it can demonstrate they can do it is sufficient evidence that it is nothing more than imagination. That will change, of course, once the OBErs can prove their claims. The ball is in their court.

Has it occured to any naysayers yet that those who regularly go OBE willingly have no NEED to Prove anything to anyone?

So some people think it is BS... so what?

So scientific types think it is BS.. who cares?

To the naysayers.....

Does it matter if a person says they go OBE regularly?

If it matters to you then I would like to know why?

Why is it so important to force your view onto others?

Why is it so important to you to make them wrong in the public's eyes?

Seriously folks..the infant-like Science of man has a very long way to go to understanding much at all really.... let's see what it brings to the table in 50 or 100 or 500 more years.. when it starts to crawl before walking.

We so easily forget in our egotistic approaches to Life on Earth that what each of us thinks is only Opinion, some of it based on Beliefs.. caused by Cultural Indoctrination, some of it caused by homogenised education and yes even academia who play the "I know better" card far too often for their own good.

Well Spoken. It really doesnt matter does it.

Thanks for your reply on your OBE`s as well it`s much appreciated, i may try that and i`m taking a look at your website too. You may even find the link the the website on my profile here of interest also

ultimately there needs to be controlled conditions and verifiable evidence given before speculation of out of body experiences are considered a worthy topic.

its a pretty simple experiment...have someone do whatever they do in room A, then in room B, have some objects, or cards, etc...

Have subject travel and come back, then describe what is in the next room. should be 100%, but I would accept 75% hit ratio (after all, there might be valid reasons why they got some things wrong in a different dimension or whatever they claim).

Until then, there is no difference between a simple dream and a "travel".

Originally posted by Tayesin
Has it occured to any naysayers yet that those who regularly go OBE willingly have no NEED to Prove anything to anyone?

I can cure cancer with about 3 dollars worth of materials from the local supermarket.
I don't need to prove it to anyone...nor will I. just believe me. I am special and smart and anyone whom hasn't figured out what I know are just idiots...and no, I won't tell you the secrets.
I have no need to prove anything
Because I am totally selfish

So some people think it is BS... so what?

You should really try to work on getting such claims eliminated...there are people whom could use this out of body travel to better themselves, others, the world...why wouldn't you want to expose people to the truth verses let people stomp all over something you know to be fact?

So scientific types think it is BS.. who cares?

Who cares is anyone whom doesn't want to live in a theocratic world of superstition over science...if there is something that is provable, then prove it...its pretty simple, then we can usher in a new age of travel and whatnot once its proven...we can understand the universe a bit more...sounds like a good deal to me,

To the naysayers.....

Does it matter if a person says they go OBE regularly?

Sort of...it gives hope.
Again, like claiming you know the secret cure to cancer, yet you won't prove it...well, joe with cancer whom asks for some proof as he is considering radiation therapy has a stake in the claim...why -wouldn't- you try your best to prove to him you have the cure?
Again, either its totally selfish, a delusion, or a willful lie...has to be one of the three

If it matters to you then I would like to know why?

It matters to me personally, because I would quite like to do this...I have tried for years and failed, I have put it in the "probably bunk" catagory overall...however always open to new evidence and methods.
I want proof to keep me encouraged to seek out something new I don't know about the cosmos.

Why is it so important to force your view onto others?

Force a view, or push for truth?

Why is it so important to you to make them wrong in the public's eyes?

Because if they are lying, then they should pay for their lies with the full weight of public resentment towards deceptive individuals. Lots of money is made in the new age circuit in purchasing their books, their CDs, etc...along with religions around the world seeing someone is lying to remove from their flock to follow a lie.

Seriously folks..the infant-like Science of man has a very long way to go to understanding much at all really.... let's see what it brings to the table in 50 or 100 or 500 more years.. when it starts to crawl before walking.

As someone whom possibly can do something unique, then you have a choice...either help us with our primitive infant science so the world can grow bit more, or you can retard the process by suggesting magical things yet decide not to help out society at large inch a bit more down the understanding path.
If you have such abilities, and can prove it, I think you should feel compelled to get the information out. You will be dead one day, and knowledge not shared is lost...its dark age thinking..willful subterfuge...if I learn a fact and I can prove it, your damn right I am going to share it...why wouldn't you? and why wouldn't you do everything possible to establish this fact as proof through scientific investigation to the best of your ability?

We so easily forget in our egotistic approaches to Life on Earth that what each of us thinks is only Opinion, some of it based on Beliefs.. caused by Cultural Indoctrination, some of it caused by homogenised education and yes even academia who play the "I know better" card far too often for their own good.

Then check it...show up the current understandings with proof that they got it wrong...else shut up and accept what is being taught...prove your claim, or hush

Originally posted by MamaJ
reply to post by Farnhold

 

I am right beside ya!

Bullpoop and all!

I am being serious...not sarcastic at all. I love this subject along with many others. I have a BIG BOOK about astral travel but due to my laziness I have not give it a go just yet. I have to finish the book first. Ha! ;-)

I have several books on the subject, from a 300 page fairly high brow discussion on it, to a 'workbook", to a bunch of paranormal and psychic books that touch on the subject.

I figure since none have helped so far, all I have to do is keep purchasing books on em...eventually I will get the right number on my shelf for it to suddenly work...after all, why would they keep publishing these books if it wasn't real...