The Physics of God as Seen in Reflection - Proof of God as Verified by Physics

Originally posted by SuperiorEd

Thank you so much for that. You are one of the few in this world. Very well said. It is my thought that modalism and the view of the Trinity perspective are one view. God cannot be limited to one aspect of our ability to reason, as you say. I think it is valuable to consider the fourth principle of Hermetic Philosophy here:

"Everything is Dual; everything has poles; everything has its pair of opposites; like and unlike are the same; opposites are identical in nature, but different in degree; extremes meet; all truths are but half-truths; all paradoxes may be reconciled." All opposites are only a degree of the same, like temperature is to degrees on the thermometer. This explains the paradoxical nature of truth. Yours may be higher than mine, but neither as high as God's ultimate understanding. Contradiction in the Bible can be explained within this understanding. Differences in religion can be seen as differing degrees of the same." Quote form my blog.

That was such a very kind response. Thank you.

Reinforcing for me what you said in the OP as well as above, the Priest where I attended this morning spoke of the reason given by Christ (in Matthew's Gospel) for His speaking in parables. Ask just about anybody, and they will tell you He spoke in parables so that we could understand. Wrong! He says he spoke in parables so that others would NOT understand.

I mention that for two reasons-- you referred to me as one of the few-- and thank you for that-- but if I am, it is not of my doing nor is it an assurance to me or to anyone that I have any part in Christ Jesus nor is it that those to whom it has not been given to understand... any blame-- or any cause to assume they have no part. It just is. That leads me the second reason: What is, is complex; but people want simple.

I can explain (starting with Isaiah 6) what it is to which Christ referred, and have done so to classes of about an hour. I won't do so here (You are welcome!) because that is not my point. Restating my point from a different perspective-- your post has received some hostile responses-- person looking for that simple answer-- and so persons who simply cannot or will not embrace the task before them; instead, choosing to excuse themselves and placate their lacking.

Working independently, virtually all cultures have REASONED what they believe, and in our present age, it is a marvel to see how so much they are alike (even though most tend to satisfy themselves with the arguments over the differences). The various scientific disciplines are likewise, independent, and yet mutually supportive-- but oh how they bicker with one another to secure the financial resources! I used to have a framed poster of Einstein and below, his quote, "Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."

Your Modalism and Trinitarianism as two perspectives of the same view is reasonable in the way you articulate it. A photon is a particle and a wave, but never both at the same time-- and which man is observing is that which it takes! In theology, we call that a "mystery" and we embrace the mystery because it is true whether it makes sense to us or not. Neither is a perfect analogy to the other, but the reconciliation of each points to the subject at hand.

reply to post by Frira


You wrote:

["but oh how they bicker with one another to secure the financial resources!"]

And that is supposed to demonstrate what??

Quote: [" A photon is a particle and a wave, but never both at the same time-- and which man is observing is that which it takes!"]

Nope.

Quote: ["In theology, we call that a "mystery" and we embrace the mystery because it is true whether it makes sense to us or not"]

And in science it's called guessing.

Again, amazing. You have the gift for weaving words. I admire this. You might be interested in my blog. LINK

I came to a conclusion not too long ago. My words with Atheists are not for them. They are the tool God uses to push my keys so to speak. The words that come out are for those who need the encouragement. I always proceed with this in mind. The atheist is clearly under a delusion. No amount of logic, reason or perfection of biblical perspective will sway their corrupted minds. There are those, however, that need these words to reassure them as they struggle against the flow of counterfeit truth abounding on the internet.

My second motivation is to allow an atheist to put my back against a wall and test my own notions of truth. When I first did this in 1996, they nearly pushed me through the wall. Since that time, my own faulty understanding has been tried by fire. Every moment of my life has been spend in study. I don't read biblical literature. I read the literature of the world to gain perspective. All philosophy, James Allen, Rumi the Sufi, Confucius, Theosophy, and the list goes on. Anything that gives me a perspective other than religion. Along the way, a person realizes that the biblical works are pure truth. Truth can be found anywhere you look. Truth is not as much where you look, but how you perceive. As I continue to study, my awareness broadens and consciousness seems to expand.

I compare the written word to a mirror. The more truth in the reflection, the clearer the reflection back to the Bible. There are smudges on all these mirrors. An atheist will see the smudges in the Bible and not realize that the filth is not on the mirror, but on their own hands. We all have this filth on our hands, but humility allows a person to see past the filth and see the love of God wiping the mirror for us. Bias against God amounts to cataracts of the mind for the atheist. The flaming sword blinds, but love covers a multitude of sins. You never know, there might be one of them that actually gets it here and there. Only God knows their hearts.

Its been a pleasure. Good luck with your endeavors. Drop me a line at superiored gmail

Originally posted by Frira

Originally posted by SuperiorEd

Thank you so much for that. You are one of the few in this world. Very well said. It is my thought that modalism and the view of the Trinity perspective are one view. God cannot be limited to one aspect of our ability to reason, as you say. I think it is valuable to consider the fourth principle of Hermetic Philosophy here:

"Everything is Dual; everything has poles; everything has its pair of opposites; like and unlike are the same; opposites are identical in nature, but different in degree; extremes meet; all truths are but half-truths; all paradoxes may be reconciled." All opposites are only a degree of the same, like temperature is to degrees on the thermometer. This explains the paradoxical nature of truth. Yours may be higher than mine, but neither as high as God's ultimate understanding. Contradiction in the Bible can be explained within this understanding. Differences in religion can be seen as differing degrees of the same." Quote form my blog.

That was such a very kind response. Thank you.

Reinforcing for me what you said in the OP as well as above, the Priest where I attended this morning spoke of the reason given by Christ (in Matthew's Gospel) for His speaking in parables. Ask just about anybody, and they will tell you He spoke in parables so that we could understand. Wrong! He says he spoke in parables so that others would NOT understand.

I mention that for two reasons-- you referred to me as one of the few-- and thank you for that-- but if I am, it is not of my doing nor is it an assurance to me or to anyone that I have any part in Christ Jesus nor is it that those to whom it has not been given to understand... any blame-- or any cause to assume they have no part. It just is. That leads me the second reason: What is, is complex; but people want simple.

I can explain (starting with Isaiah 6) what it is to which Christ referred, and have done so to classes of about an hour. I won't do so here (You are welcome!) because that is not my point. Restating my point from a different perspective-- your post has received some hostile responses-- person looking for that simple answer-- and so persons who simply cannot or will not embrace the task before them; instead, choosing to excuse themselves and placate their lacking.

Working independently, virtually all cultures have REASONED what they believe, and in our present age, it is a marvel to see how so much they are alike (even though most tend to satisfy themselves with the arguments over the differences). The various scientific disciplines are likewise, independent, and yet mutually supportive-- but oh how they bicker with one another to secure the financial resources! I used to have a framed poster of Einstein and below, his quote, "Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."

Your Modalism and Trinitarianism as two perspectives of the same view is reasonable in the way you articulate it. A photon is a particle and a wave, but never both at the same time-- and which man is observing is that which it takes! In theology, we call that a "mystery" and we embrace the mystery because it is true whether it makes sense to us or not. Neither is a perfect analogy to the other, but the reconciliation of each points to the subject at hand.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by Frira

 

You wrote:

Quote: ["In theology, we call that a "mystery" and we embrace the mystery because it is true whether it makes sense to us or not"]

And in science it's called guessing.

Actually, its called the law of the excluded middle. Two contradictory truths may simply be the same truth missing the excluded middle argument to untie the truth. A mystery is meant to be solved. God never just gives us the answers. He makes us do the work. Science does much of the work for us. The Bible then fills in the purpose and answers the question why. In the end, it was there to begin with. Only our limited perspective and small awareness is to blame.

A baby starts life out focusing on self. As it grows, it begins to let the walls of its fear down and begins the expansion of awareness. As consciousness grows, the awareness begins to move away from self. All of us, to a varying degree, have a size to our awareness. Belief and faith in God expands this awareness in an exponential movement away from self. This allows the believer to see the world apart from the pride that blinds the intellect. Impenetrability says that two objects cannot occupy the same space. Since emotion and intellect fight for supremacy in the mind, a person will serve one or the other. You cannot serve two masters.

It is important to develop humility, seeing others as equals. This helps us defeat pride. Faith is the path to make this happen. Once a persons starts down this path, the road opens before you for understanding. Consciousness is the key. It needs to be free. Freedom has nothing to do with liberation of self. This is the opposite movement and can only shrink awareness back to self.

All your intellect will fail you if you cannot see past self. Mysteries will remain in their state of contradiction and paradox.

Originally posted by SuperiorEd

Again, amazing. You have the gift for weaving words. I admire this. You might be interested in my blog. LINK

I came to a conclusion not too long ago. My words with Atheists are not for them. They are the tool God uses to push my keys so to speak. The words that come out are for those who need the encouragement. I always proceed with this in mind. The atheist is clearly under a delusion. No amount of logic, reason or perfection of biblical perspective will sway their corrupted minds. There are those, however, that need these words to reassure them as they struggle against the flow of counterfeit truth abounding on the internet.

My second motivation is to allow an atheist to put my back against a wall and test my own notions of truth. When I first did this in 1996, they nearly pushed me through the wall. Since that time, my own faulty understanding has been tried by fire. Every moment of my life has been spend in study. I don't read biblical literature. I read the literature of the world to gain perspective. All philosophy, James Allen, Rumi the Sufi, Confucius, Theosophy, and the list goes on. Anything that gives me a perspective other than religion. Along the way, a person realizes that the biblical works are pure truth. Truth can be found anywhere you look. Truth is not as much where you look, but how you perceive. As I continue to study, my awareness broadens and consciousness seems to expand.

I compare the written word to a mirror. The more truth in the reflection, the clearer the reflection back to the Bible. There are smudges on all these mirrors. An atheist will see the smudges in the Bible and not realize that the filth is not on the mirror, but on their own hands. We all have this filth on our hands, but humility allows a person to see past the filth and see the love of God wiping the mirror for us. Bias against God amounts to cataracts of the mind for the atheist. The flaming sword blinds, but love covers a multitude of sins. You never know, there might be one of them that actually gets it here and there. Only God knows their hearts.

Its been a pleasure. Good luck with your endeavors. Drop me a line at superiored gmail

Cool blog-- you have been working much on this.

I have a buddy of mine, much headier than I on such things, whose blog pushes me much like you mention the atheist have done for you-- although my buddy is not an atheist. Your blog reminds of his excellent writing as well his approach to the subject.

I'll need time to digest what I have read there-- and do a bit of digging for the answers to questions which have already come to mind before commenting.

Let me toss something your way that I THINK is related-- both from your posts here and a quick scan of the first several articles on your blog: On my mind because of that sermon I mentioned before.

I keep getting asked about how I interpret Scripture-- either literal or figurative/metaphor. I find that a false dichotomy-- and my answer is somewhere between neither and both. The truth you mention found elsewhere, I find in the great stories-- of any age. I love fiction, but split my time between novels and text books, listening to a story and researching-- both satisfy. Likewise, I find holy scripture to be truth in both forms.

Over simplistic but maybe will suffice for a ATS thread post-- Creation story-- spiritual truth, but which leaves mystery for us as markers. Such as, what is a "day" before there is a earth to rotate under a sun? and Adam and Eve, best understood as literally true SO THAT we can glean the spiritual truth-- because that how we reason. It is the spiritual truth and the images-- the symbols-- we are given. They give us a vocabulary for the unseen but experience common to man-- the spiritual life and the spiritual Reality. If one gets that far, then discussing if Adam and Eve were created in 4004 BC becomes a distraction-- misses the point.

Does that make sense? I've been trying to find a better way of explaining, and suspect it is just one of those things that some people get, and the others struggle to grasp. It certainly is not an original idea-- most of my mentors, masters, superiors (select all that apply!) do likewise without explaining-- but I want to explain to those whose struggle with it-- I just cannot.

On the interpretation of scripture, I consider the fact that time is an illusion. Creation is an illusion of now. Now is eternally one thing along with past and future. It's hard to wrap a mind around this when we are in the fourth dimension of time, but if you realize that God is a dimensional thinker, you get the picture. We can view and change a 3D object, like a sculpture, without changing the overall quality of the material. God used a first material to mold the sculpture of the fourth dimension before we ever gained consciousness. We are able to shape this sculpture as well, but the overall structure is shaped by God. We add or take away from the aesthetics of the finished product by the lives we live. 'Now' happens for us between God creating on His side and us experiencing on ours. The trinity is in the middle reflecting each way as the event horizon. That's the best I can do as a symbol.

I just gave you a description of dimensional reality that is in the form of a metaphor. This in no way describes the events and complexity of a multi-dimensional reality as related to time. A story is the only way to provide depth to shallow minds such as ours. Because of this, we see it in symbol, which is the best way for us to visualize multi-dimensional information. Our brains and God work in a holographic manner. One perspective at a time is never enough. We need depth to see the glimmer we can catch.

The Bible does this very thing for us. If we could lift the hood of reality and look in, all we would realize is that we would be blinded by the light of it all. Plato's Cave is a good description here. It's too complex. It must be simplified to symbol until we are given time to see. We also need new vehicles in the next reality to get to the next level. A new vehicle (body) suggests new and broadened senses and an upgraded NOUS. More ability and greater responsibility. Love is the first lesson apparently. AMAZING!

For us, eternal life will always be a climbing of some ladder or solving of some mystery. Living in a good story requires what we are doing now. Developing artificial sentience is a development and a process. Really, I assume that this is going on all over the universe. Ephesians suggests the administration of the universe (Kingdom of God) and that there are rulers, principalities and families in heaven. We inherit the kingdom of God as a birthright of living on earth and finding love. If the Earth is a womb, and our bodies are a placenta, then the earth gives birth to us into a new vehicle. This is the tree of life.

How about all the main metaphors in the Bible?

The Sun and Moon come together to form life on earth. Sperm and egg come together into a womb. Two become one and then repeat. Body and soul come together and gain union with the spirit (Holy Consciousness). This union causes fruit from a life lived. We are the roots below. The tree above bears fruit and drops off the tree. Our essence then grows to the next vehicle. It happens when we are ready.

I believe in transmigration. John 3 says that we must be born again. Water is the material world of baptism. Spirit gives birth to spirit in another realm. Being stuck here in the material world is separation from God. We create our heaven and hell right here. There is a final judgment when all creation is judged. The veil of the temple (body) keeps our minds from remembering the past existence so that we can only live by faith. The veil is torn. This signifies that we are starting to realize the mysteries. Once we see face to face with God, our baptism here in the water is exchanged for rebirth above.

Why do I get transmigration finally as a Christian? How did it occur to me to accept it? All Christians accept it. We assume that we are incarnated into this body. We assume that we will be incarnated into the next body after salvation. Why stop there. Is God limited to these two times. I say baptism is the metaphor of them all. You must be born again suggests that it is not an option. In Job, Satan tells God, "Skin for Skin" after killing Job's children. A snake sheds a skin for a new skin. The snake is the same snake after the process. He was telling God, no problem. They come back anyway. Skin for skin. There are many other clues to the mystery. That's just my opinion.

This is all simple metaphor for what really takes place. Its vastly more complex and we can leave this up to God. He bestowed this to us in love. We must do the same for others as a bestowal back to God. As most physicists will tell you, reality is a bizarre place that doesn't make sense to our intellect and intuition. Contradiction abounds if we only look at opposites as paradox. It gets worse when we try to fit our lacking mathematics into the perspective, as if we are somehow capable of juggling it all into a coherent picture. Dimensional mathematics requires quantum processing. Our brains have enough to do already.

Try reading Einstein sometime. Try and get a grip on what He is saying. You quickly realize one of two things: Either he is raving mad, or He is so far above us that it just sounds that way. Now, compare this to God's perspective to us. Even at a basic level, His word is elegant and clear, even to the simplest of minds. If Einstein had written in allegory and metaphor, the average human may have had a chance of understanding Him.

For God, there is truth. For us, there is truth to us until we realize there is more. Each of us are on the path to this final truth at different stages. We will all contradict each other until it is all finally resolved. The closer we get, the clearer it becomes.

Hope that helps. The length of creation days is what God uses as a measure of time. His is a measure of the universe and ours is the earth. Two different concepts. You are right there. It is not the point. I assume He developed it in His mind first and then called it into existence in perfect order. How can we be the judge in reverse through time. We were not there.

Nice talk. Thank you for being a loving human being.

Originally posted by Frira

Originally posted by SuperiorEd

Again, amazing. You have the gift for weaving words. I admire this. You might be interested in my blog. LINK

I came to a conclusion not too long ago. My words with Atheists are not for them. They are the tool God uses to push my keys so to speak. The words that come out are for those who need the encouragement. I always proceed with this in mind. The atheist is clearly under a delusion. No amount of logic, reason or perfection of biblical perspective will sway their corrupted minds. There are those, however, that need these words to reassure them as they struggle against the flow of counterfeit truth abounding on the internet.

My second motivation is to allow an atheist to put my back against a wall and test my own notions of truth. When I first did this in 1996, they nearly pushed me through the wall. Since that time, my own faulty understanding has been tried by fire. Every moment of my life has been spend in study. I don't read biblical literature. I read the literature of the world to gain perspective. All philosophy, James Allen, Rumi the Sufi, Confucius, Theosophy, and the list goes on. Anything that gives me a perspective other than religion. Along the way, a person realizes that the biblical works are pure truth. Truth can be found anywhere you look. Truth is not as much where you look, but how you perceive. As I continue to study, my awareness broadens and consciousness seems to expand.

I compare the written word to a mirror. The more truth in the reflection, the clearer the reflection back to the Bible. There are smudges on all these mirrors. An atheist will see the smudges in the Bible and not realize that the filth is not on the mirror, but on their own hands. We all have this filth on our hands, but humility allows a person to see past the filth and see the love of God wiping the mirror for us. Bias against God amounts to cataracts of the mind for the atheist. The flaming sword blinds, but love covers a multitude of sins. You never know, there might be one of them that actually gets it here and there. Only God knows their hearts.

Its been a pleasure. Good luck with your endeavors. Drop me a line at superiored gmail

Cool blog-- you have been working much on this.

I have a buddy of mine, much headier than I on such things, whose blog pushes me much like you mention the atheist have done for you-- although my buddy is not an atheist. Your blog reminds of his excellent writing as well his approach to the subject.

I'll need time to digest what I have read there-- and do a bit of digging for the answers to questions which have already come to mind before commenting.

Let me toss something your way that I THINK is related-- both from your posts here and a quick scan of the first several articles on your blog: On my mind because of that sermon I mentioned before.

I keep getting asked about how I interpret Scripture-- either literal or figurative/metaphor. I find that a false dichotomy-- and my answer is somewhere between neither and both. The truth you mention found elsewhere, I find in the great stories-- of any age. I love fiction, but split my time between novels and text books, listening to a story and researching-- both satisfy. Likewise, I find holy scripture to be truth in both forms.

Over simplistic but maybe will suffice for a ATS thread post-- Creation story-- spiritual truth, but which leaves mystery for us as markers. Such as, what is a "day" before there is a earth to rotate under a sun? and Adam and Eve, best understood as literally true SO THAT we can glean the spiritual truth-- because that how we reason. It is the spiritual truth and the images-- the symbols-- we are given. They give us a vocabulary for the unseen but experience common to man-- the spiritual life and the spiritual Reality. If one gets that far, then discussing if Adam and Eve were created in 4004 BC becomes a distraction-- misses the point.

Does that make sense? I've been trying to find a better way of explaining, and suspect it is just one of those things that some people get, and the others struggle to grasp. It certainly is not an original idea-- most of my mentors, masters, superiors (select all that apply!) do likewise without explaining-- but I want to explain to those whose struggle with it-- I just cannot.

What about the Kabbalistic understanding of God ?

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by SuperiorEd


You wrote (on theists guesses):

["Actually, its called the law of the excluded middle."]

Which you maybe believe sounds impressive and gives respectability to your claims. What you actually are doing is to use a personal version of syncretism (in the form of creating false inductive categories), where you enforce similarities to look like identical factors, you can form deductive conclusions from.

It's the umpteenth theist effort in that direction I've met on ATS, and it hasn't succeeded yet.

Quote: ["Two contradictory truths may simply be the same truth missing the excluded middle argument to untie the truth."]

If a sound 'bridge' is used to unite them. Inductive categories/enforced syncretism is not sound.

Quote: ["A mystery is meant to be solved."]

Then start by solving the real 'mystery' of how inductively-based postulates are replacing deductive reasoning, and why this should be called 'science'.

Quote: ["God never just gives us the answers. He makes us do the work. Science does much of the work for us."]

So now you have actually TAKEN over science, and use it as a minor ingredient in your home-cooked system of: "It's true, because it's true"-argumentation.

Quote: ["A baby starts life out focusing on self. As it grows, it begins to let the walls of its fear down and begins the expansion of awareness. As consciousness grows, the awareness begins to move away from self. All of us, to a varying degree, have a size to our awareness."]

A general observation on life.

Quote: ["Belief and faith in God expands this awareness in an exponential movement away from self."]

Often towards confusion.

Quote: ["This allows the believer to see the world apart from the pride that blinds the intellect."]

And from the possible misuses of the intellect exceeding its tole, you conclude what....that 'god' exists? Filling out knowledge-gaps with postulates?

Quote: ["Impenetrability says that two objects cannot occupy the same space."]

You talked about concepts before, not objects. The allegory is useless.

Quote: [" Since emotion and intellect fight for supremacy in the mind, a person will serve one or the other."]

It may be so for you.

Quote: [" It is important to develop humility, seeing others as equals."]

There is no such thing as 'equality'. People have egalitarian rights though.

Quote: ["This helps us defeat pride."]

It may help YOU; which does not turn it into a general truth.

Quote: ["Faith is the path to make this happen."]

For some, and THEIR way; not necessarily yours.

Quote: ["Once a persons starts down this path, the road opens before you for understanding."]

Postulate. Quite a few theists end up with a confusion so deep, that they are unable to function at all.

Quote: ["Consciousness is the key."]

But not with you as a self-appointed 'authority' setting the conditions.

Quote: [" All your intellect will fail you if you cannot see past self. Mysteries will remain in their state of contradiction and paradox."]

You know next to nothing about me, but nonetheless you have created an imaginary prophile of Bogomil around the little you know, and want to force that imagination into your unfounded system of speculations.

reply to post by bogomil

Quote: [" All your intellect will fail you if you cannot see past self. Mysteries will remain in their state of contradiction and paradox."]

You know next to nothing about me, but nonetheless you have created an imaginary prophile of Bogomil around the little you know, and want to force that imagination into your unfounded system of speculations.

This post wasn't to you. I don't generally speak to anyone. I try to speak toward a subject and not the object. The biblical message is for everyone, including me. These are standards to live up to and not insults to use against any one individual. The subject may judge your heart. That is true for all of us.

Kabbalah is the mystical side of religion. Moses was said to have received the written Torah on Mt. Siani as well as the unwritten Torah. The unwritten version was supposed to be passed down from mouth to ear and only shared with the elect. It is an attempt to recreate the experiences of the early Jewish mystics such as Elijah and Ezekiel.

This is the esoteric (intrinsic) side of religion. The church is the exoteric (extrinsic). Faith is both of these for sure. We have our spiritual life on the inside as God speaks to us in the still small voice of the subconscious. He also speaks to us from the events of the world around us. Jesus gave us the key to understanding this. Truth is not found in either place.

You will not find truth in the dogmas of the church or in the practices of religion. These are symbols that lead us to realization of truth only. You won't find truth in the extremes of spirituality either. The path to truth is the narrow path. It is the path between the material church and the inner court of the heart. Go too far into either and you stray from the path.

Matthew 7:13
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

The church was built upon Peter. Peter let Jesus down, only to return. Peter was called the rock that the church would be built upon. The rock was rolled away as you recall. The church will be rolled away as well to reveal Christ in the last day. John was the esoteric church of the Gnostics. Again, he was the much beloved of Jesus. This was the mystical side of gnosis. Gnosis is spiritual understanding.

Each of these two churches strayed too far into their respective beliefs. This is a pendulum swing. Each of us who believe will swing from one to the other in life. Material to spiritual. We arrive in the middle at the gates of the narrow way. It is a balance of both to achieve true mastery over truth.

Kabbalah is the swing of the pendulum to the extreme of spirituality. This is why the new age movement is embracing it. For the believer, the swing of the pendulum balances at love for others.

For the non-believer there is no swing of this pendulum toward truth. The nonbeliever can only swing from fear to self-pride. This is the same swing. Material to inner pride. When He arrives at the balance point between, it becomes a false self-confidence based on bias against the church and other people in the world. A person can only love themselves if they suffer the disease of pride. It is a wall of protection instead of a door of freedom.

Originally posted by rom12345
What about the Kabbalistic understanding of God ?

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
reply to post by bogomil

 

Quote: [" All your intellect will fail you if you cannot see past self. Mysteries will remain in their state of contradiction and paradox."]

You know next to nothing about me, but nonetheless you have created an imaginary prophile of Bogomil around the little you know, and want to force that imagination into your unfounded system of speculations.

This post wasn't to you. I don't generally speak to anyone. I try to speak toward a subject and not the object. The biblical message is for everyone, including me. These are standards to live up to and not insults to use against any one individual. The subject may judge your heart. That is true for all of us.

There are no rules of exclusivity on a public forum; I can address any post I want.

In any case this quote is from a post from you addressed to a post of mine (05:52 PM):

["All your intellect will fail you if you cannot see past self. Mysteries will remain in their state of contradiction and paradox."]

And I have not said, that insults are in it. I said, that you have no idea of whom I am, and if I am able to trangress e.g. 'the self'. If you had wanted to make this a general statement, your present formulation is imprecise.

But after your explanation, I ofcourse retract my complaint on that point.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


You wrote:

["This is the esoteric (intrinsic) side of religion. The church is the exoteric (extrinsic). Faith is both of these for sure."]

Apart from the faith-part. Agreed.

Quote: ["We have our spiritual life on the inside as God speaks to us in the still small voice of the subconscious."]

This is how it happens to some going that path. Others go beyond this point and continue to less subjective states, where 'god'(s) isn't an ingredient. And it's possible, that those stopping at the 'god' level need a 'subconsciousness' to get any results. Beyond that it's a straight experience.

Quote: ["The path to truth is the narrow path. It is the path between the material church and the inner court of the heart. Go too far into either and you stray from the path."]

And this is why the western esoteric tradition seldoms passes beyond the subjective level. Carrying 'the material church' with you is a safe bet to bring back, what you went out to find. There's a feed-back from expectations to result.

Quote: ["For the non-believer there is no swing of this pendulum toward truth. The nonbeliever can only swing from fear to self-pride."]

Only according to your premises. 'Non-believers' of various kinds do well without them, so there's no need to divide a 'spiritual' mankind in groups of 'believers' and 'non-believers'.

reply to post by bogomil

. . . are doing is to use a personal version of syncretism (in the form of creating false inductive categories), where you enforce similarities to look like identical factors, you can form deductive conclusions from.

I was reading this last night and thinking how much is packed into this statement and I am still thinking about it. I notice you brought this up again with further elaboration today on a new thread. I didn't want to bust into one so new so I thought I would just comment on the one I was reading earlier. I like the way you quote lines and it saves me from having to read the whole (over, again?) post you are commenting on. Keep up the style and I know from experience that it is harder work to do it that way. There's an old American saying that comes from baseball, "you can't follow the game without a scorecard".

reply to post by bogomil

 

Quote: ["For the non-believer there is no swing of this pendulum toward truth. The nonbeliever can only swing from fear to self-pride."]

Only according to your premises. 'Non-believers' of various kinds do well without them, so there's no need to divide a 'spiritual' mankind in groups of 'believers' and 'non-believers'.

I agree with you on this part about anyone having access to truth. Truth is free. God offers it to anyone who seeks. The main point you will see in time is that truth is the magnet that draws all of us to one point. I know I keeps saying it, but it is the point of life. Love is what opens to door to truth, virtue and freedom from enslavement to pride. Pride is a lie. It is the illusion of truth.

Listen close to this next point. It is utterly important to our discussion you and I have here at ATS:

Counterfeit truth cannot move into the mind unless it is wrapped in some form of truth. This is how it gets in past our reasoning and logic. Your mind is geared toward truth because it is written on your heart. Unfortunately, so is the programming of the ego. "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" (Jeremiah 17:9). Is this a paradox to truth being written on the heart? No. If the heart is guided by the spirit, then truth is what the heart reveals. If the ego and pride rules the heart by emotion instead of intellect, then the heart follows the error of the emotions.

This is the Eastern understanding of mindfulness and equanimity. Equanimity is disallowing the emotions to rule the heart. Mindfulness is awareness of the Eight Fold Path. The four noble truths reveal how suffering operates in our lives from the basic understanding that we reap what we sow.

Christ came along and redefined this to its absolute essence. LOVE is the primary means of understanding the rest. Buddha came and laid the groundwork for this idea to be reduced by Christ. Once we find the apex of truth (Love) then we have found salvation. Luke 10 defines this as does 1 Corinthians 13.

Selfless devotion to others is a quality we are all lacking, as evidenced here on ATS. None of us are worthy of this aspiration.

Christ died to set us free from this error of pride. The closer you get to love, the closer you are to the arms of Christ. True belief is moving away from the world and toward Christ.

John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Pick this apart.

The way is Eastern thought of virtue and the path to enlightenment. Christ says He is this way.

Truth is what the philosophers were after. Christ says that He is that truth.

Life is our new birth from the womb called Earth. It only comes from Christ.

What is Christ and who is this person of the trinity? LOVE of man and love of God. That's the end of the story in the Bible. Revelation says, "To him who overcoes..." Overcome what?

The world (pride). It is the point of the story reality tells. Good or evil. Make the choice.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


You wrote:

["God offers it to anyone who seeks. The main point you will see in time is that truth is the magnet that draws all of us to one point. I know I keeps saying it, but it is the point of life. Love is what opens to door to truth, virtue and freedom from enslavement to pride. Pride is a lie. It is the illusion of truth."]

Imo you have a BIG communication-problem. You appear to suffer from the delusion, that I and mankind in general have to accept and operate from the premises you try to superimpose on us.

Quote: ["Counterfeit truth cannot move into the mind unless it is wrapped in some form of truth."]

No-one knows, what's counterfeit truth, as no-one knows what authentic, ultimate truth. Though we can operate with local, relative 'truths'.

Quote: [" This is how it gets in past our reasoning and logic."]

And as usual you are going to claim, that you have the correct method and the correct answers.

Quote: ["Your mind is geared toward truth because it is written on your heart. Unfortunately, so is the programming of the ego."]

There are ego-deprogramming methods which demonstrably are far better than the one asscoated with your preached doctrines.

Quote: ["This is the Eastern understanding of mindfulness and equanimity. Equanimity is disallowing the emotions to rule the heart. Mindfulness is awareness of the Eight Fold Path. The four noble truths reveal how suffering operates in our lives from the basic understanding that we reap what we sow."]

Which has nothing to do with your doctrinal preachings. You are hijacking buddhism again and 'adapting' it.

Quote: ["Christ came along and redefined this to its absolute essence."]

Christ REDEFINED buddhism? As you have redefined it, and as you have redefined science, and as you have redefined secular society and as you have redefined mysticism. You never get the feeling, that you're overdoing the 'adaption' approach, from your self-proclaimed 'superior' knowledge position?

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
For the non-believer there is no swing of this pendulum toward truth. The nonbeliever can only swing from fear to self-pride. This is the same swing. Material to inner pride. When He arrives at the balance point between, it becomes a false self-confidence based on bias against the church and other people in the world. A person can only love themselves if they suffer the disease of pride. It is a wall of protection instead of a door of freedom.

This struck a chord-- partly dissonant.

Context: From another discussion, the topic concerned the various names and speculative causes for what is sometimes called, "Death of the ego." I keep trying to put mine out of its misery, but the dang thing won't die. Spiritual wisdom offered to me is basically nothing more than "Be patient."

But when I read the quote, above, I thought of, "Love your neighbor as yourself." So: How is self-love other than Pride?

Practically, it seems to me, that a person whose ego has died, does not turn into a doormat and allow the robust ego of others to do it violence. To do so would seem to be to dismiss some deeply held altruisms: valor, justice and honor come to mind.

And because there are clearly those influences which (who) seek to do violence to innocents, I run into difficulty with extremes being the same (e.g., good/evil yin-yang). While both are, one must restrain evil to protect an innocent while loosing good upon all.

I also notice in another post something which you wrote equivocating the world to "Pride." Do you believe that the world is an enemy to faith and/or the spiritual life only in that it acts on (or with) Pride, or is there a non-personal evil? I have in mind the classic threefold renunciations of "the world, the flesh, and the devil." I THINK, your use of the "material to inner pride" answers that question. That is to say that material will become all, leaving no room for the spiritual make-up of man.

At any rate, what you describe in that paragraph is an excellent definition of what I perceive my society to have become, including an infiltration into the post-modern Church which come, in various ways; such as the "Prosperity Gospel" so popular and influential: Balance material gain by subduing Pride, but define your worth (even in God's eyes) by your material gain.

Personal note: I went up against an evil, sought to restrain it. I thought I could, and if I couldn't I thought I could find help. I was wrong-- on both counts. Many suffered because I failed to stop it. I was overwhelmed and I was alone. That evil works even today with impunity. I speculate that my ego refuses to die, because of my resentment for being left alone in the fight in which I received a mortal blow.

Taking that thought full circle: If the spiritual life is about love, then it must be about relation with others. But if one is alone... Then what?

Somewhere in there, is a conflict which I have to discover and so cannot reconcile.

EDIT: Oh! I am looking for purpose, and the one term from your quote I did not address was "truth." My ego demands purpose to allow me to more fully enter truth (more fully, "God."). I want that because I hate the idea that if my ego dies, and I have truth but no purpose, I would become nothing to the world. I believe in that I now see the conflict.