Endless Dark Night Of The Soul.

Originally posted by Malcram
reply to post by Serdgiam

 

I don't know.

Perhaps the mind is not capable of understanding what is inherently beyond it, even within our own being?

There is experience. Perceptual habit divides it up into subject and objects and experience follows suit. But so what?

Agreed, and then the eventual destruction and rebuilding of those results of limited faculties given the "proper" seeking. That which experiences all these things simultaneously is where one might begin to find themselves, beyond what we currently perceive through our explicit thought processes, which are only a part of what we are even strictly speaking. All things in existence are in existence.

For myself, I have constantly chased the shadows of my own mind while what cast it was there all along dancing at the edge. Both are part of it all. Any beliefs formed will ultimately be refined or destroyed. It is in understanding the process, instead of being swept away by it, that one might find peace. The stability at the center of it all of which all the other "things" rotate and undulate.

Am I supposed to form a belief regarding something watching something else and then identify with one or the other, or both, or neither?

That is not a question I can answer for you. That may sound harsh, its not meant to, but hopefully you will understand. I do enjoy the conversation though

reply to post by Serdgiam


Yes, it may well be true that the mind cannot understand what lies beyond it. And I dont have the desire to 'understand' any longer, which may be just as well, if 'understanding' is a function of mind rather than what may be beyond it.

I cant even hold the mental conceptual structure of 'that which experiences itself as all these things simultaneously' long enough to do anything with it. It just collapses. Thankfully, there is also a strong sense that it would no longer for be useful for me to do so. But I did at one time. Ive had these 'understandings' before but they didn't give lasting peace. Because the compulsion I have apparently leads beyond the realm of understanding. I just havent got there yet lol. (totally clumsy wording, of course)

I cant find peace in the process of refining/destroying belief because that process is over. 'System failure'. I don't know anything. Total endarkenment. Lol. Nor can I know or predict the process until I experience it all and I cant use the apparent experience of others as a reassuring 'map' because that would require belief. So there is no peace in the process in that sense.

Yes, my question regarding selecting belief was really to determine what you were suggesting, if anything. Belief would not be an option for me now.

Its all very weird.

reply to post by minkykeka


Something is repetitive in life, this thing come to you all the time.
You have no chance of refuting this aspect of your life until you wise up.
Do never thing that you are wiser because you have suffer.
There is many way to see this aspect of your life.
The best way in my experience is to auto view your attitude and persona including your thought.
This is a creative way because you wouldn't involve judgment of any kind in the process.
As you go by day by day, do not seek any result, do not seek any reward, do not seek any thing...juts observe...if you are good at it then you will enjoy this.
To be free from the cycle can take a life time but never forget that what count is the journey. As you surely know.

Originally posted by Malcram
reply to post by Serdgiam

 

Yes, it may well be true that the mind cannot understand what lies beyond it. And I dont have the desire to 'understand' any longer, which may be just as well, if 'understanding' is a function of mind rather than what may be beyond it.

I am not so sure it is only a function of the mind.. It is possible it is a function of the universe as a whole, with the mind as only a part of that. Working itself along the lines of what we explore through science and physics.

I cant even hold the mental conceptual structure of 'that which experiences itself as all these things simultaneously' long enough to do anything with it. It just collapses.

Agreed, the mind is not capable of understanding that which it is a small part. Mental structures of things beyond its capacity will collapse under their own weight, because they have no foundation. Remembering, of course, it is only my view.

Thankfully, there is also a strong sense that it would no longer for be useful for me to do so. But I did at one time. Ive had these 'understandings' before but they didn't give lasting peace. Because the compulsion I have apparently leads beyond the realm of understanding. I just havent got there yet lol. (totally clumsy wording, of course)

My own clumsy wording may have lead you into thinking something which i did not intend. Though, they are just like thoughts in that regard. The understanding itself would give no lasting peace, it is in residing within that which has the understanding, the belief, or the world view that may give these things instead of the understanding itself. Not necessarily a benign mental process, or thought process, but an active experience on more levels wherein the fleeting understanding is contained. This was found to be, for me, not within the realm of thought processes or "typical" understanding. I can only speak from my own experience, we have to move our own two feet.

I cant find peace in the process of refining/destroying belief because that process is over. 'System failure'. I don't know anything. Total endarkenment. Lol. Nor can I know or predict the process until I experience it all and I cant use the apparent experience of others as a reassuring 'map' because that would require belief. So there is no peace in the process in that sense.

Sounds like one of my own destruction phases Verbatim, actually. However, when I resided within that which was destroyed, it was as you allude, like being in a dark room and the flashlight goes out. Nothing. No other can give a map to areas which can not be seen, but another may, and can, turn on a light in the distance. That which contains those things, "you," is still here speaking though.

Its all very weird.

Agreed, but in that, I personally find beauty.

Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.
Ever desiring, one sees the manifestations.
These two spring from the same source but differ in name; this appears as darkness.
Darkness within darkness.
The gate to all mystery.

The Tao is an empty vessel; it is used, but never filled.
Oh, unfathomable source of ten thousand things!
Blunt the sharpness,
Untangle the knot,
Soften the glare,
Merge with dust.
Oh, hidden deep but ever present!
I do not know from whence it comes.
It is the forefather of the gods.

whispers....maybe.

I'm reading a lot of the advice because I so relate to what the OP has stated.

Much of it is as pablum in my view. When one takes a spiritual view and despairs that society offers nothing and yet feels spiritually stagnant-- "Cheer up!" is cheap talk. It is shallow or even hollow, albeit, well-meaning.

And while not a direct parallel, because in the case, below, the deeply spiritual person had just undergone a scandal not of his own doing which seemingly ruined his life's dreams and ambitions. The man wrote:

"I was in an agony of despair and strongly tempted to leap overboard and end my worthless life. At that moment, however, an eagle swooped down near my head, and then, soaring aloft with wildest screams, was lost in the rays of the setting sun. I knew then, that a great destiny waited for me in the West."

How many would see an eagle in flight at sunset and connect it with a great destiny awaiting?

Ah! But the spiritual person is familiar with the concept, if not necessarily the words, "I will now turn aside, and see this great sight."

That boat from which he had thought of leaping was in Tennessee. From there he went and lived for a time apart from society-- out in the woods among Indian friends, although he was white. He was known to them as "The Raven."

It was not easy-- there was yet another terrible trial in his life, and many accused him of being a worthless drunkard, and worse, a coward. Remembering that vision of the Eagle, he eventually continued West. Several years later, suffering personal losses yet again, he was swept up by others to lead nearly 2,000 men. Keeping his thoughts and plans to himself, he did lead and reaching that "fork in the road" where he turned his farmer-soldiers to meet the most powerful army then on the planet... and won.

"The Raven" is more well known as Sam Houston-- Commanding General of the Texas Army, Hero of San Jacinto, President of the Republic of Texas, Governor of the State of Texas (had already been Governor Tennessee), and Senator to the United States.

As for me-- I have no expectations of a great destiny-- but there is hope in the stories of great men who knew what it was to lose everything-- and found their way to a meaningful and purposeful life far beyond the life they once prized and lost.

So, just perhaps... it is not "get over it" but, rather, endure.

Le Dur Désir de durer. (-- Paul Eluard)

reply to post by Malcram


from p7 "Perhaps the mind is not capable of understanding what is inherently beyond it, even within our own being?"(serdgiam)

i'm sure you're right. it certainly cannot understand the "real", it is the real which supports the mind. the mind is finite and the real is infinite, timeless and spaceless. all things are contained in it.

p7 "Am I supposed to form a belief regarding something watching something else and then identify with one or the other, or both, or neither?"(malcram)

any belief would still be within the finite mind. as ramana maharshi states;- "all knowledge will have to be unlearned before the truth can manifest."(or words to that effect)

p7 Yes, it may well be true that the mind cannot understand what lies beyond it. And I dont have the desire to 'understand' any longer, which may be just as well, if 'understanding' is a function of mind rather than what may be beyond it. (malcram)

see 2nd para

p7 I cant even hold the mental conceptual structure of 'that which experiences itself as all these things simultaneously' long enough to do anything with it. It just collapses. Thankfully, there is also a strong sense that it would no longer for be useful for me to do so. But I did at one time. Ive had these 'understandings' before but they didn't give lasting peace.

if you could hold it, it would be false. your comments on its usefullness reminds me of gopi krishna who meditated on the third eye for 17 years i believe. at that time as the light rose in his shushumna he inwardly glanced at it and it immediately collapsed.

i guess the title of your post says it all, except i dont think its endless, and perhaps you dont either considering you have this "compulsion" to go "beyond."
spiritual giants like sri yukteswar mention a trembling or nervousness as the ego extinguishes. maybe thats the feeling of "dark night". i'm sure the intensity of the darkness is proportional to the degree of identification with the mind/body complex.
one can see where to have had the rug pulled out from under you so many times in your earlier life is a blessing indeed.
and to discuss your post is a blessing for all of us, at least for me its a reminder to get back on the rails to beyond. the only thing seemingly infinite with the ego is its capacity to invent methods to derail the journey.

reply to post by orangutang


Hi,

Yes, the title of the thread just reflects the depth of discomfort and the length of time in this position rather than a real belief that it wont end. I dont know what will or will not happen or when.

I have also read accounts of an intense protracted 'nervousness' prior to 'Enlightement'. I feel that and have done for some time. It would be nice if it was such a precursor but, as I never tire of saying, I dont know.

Yes, I agree that there are endless delays and distractions. Perhaps the entire attempt to reach 'Enlightement' through various efforts and concepts and doings and not doings is such a dead end, but the most ironic one of all.

reply to post by Malcram


I think most people on an alternative news site can relate to feeling out of place. I especially resonated with your feeling of homesickness. I've been getting that sour feeling in the pit of my stomach since I can remember. Sometimes it's followed by an uncontrolled shudder.

I have journeyed to each end of the happiness spectrum. I have found that sadness can be strangely addicting for so many reasons. Personally, I believe self pity cripples most of us. It did me for many years. And then one day I saw happiness as a choice and I couldn't make myself sad anymore. I mean a choice in spite of whatever circumstances I may be in. Almost overnight I got to feel that lightness of being that comes with the excitement of knowing I can create whatever life/personality/moment I want.

Once I got there, it was easy to see that soul sucking feeling was just me allowing it. How I was feeding it with delusions of being special or different. Wronged. And then everything really did follow suit. My life changed, love came into my life, and I've stayed happy for over 3 yrs.

So I want to ask you? Do you have love in your life? When I didn't, I felt disconnected from world. I wanted to rip my flesh off in frustration and distaste for the stupidity of a world so ugly, I could not possibly be a part of. Now, I can do no less than be kind and empathetic (most of the time, I'm not perfect, just happy) because I am aware of how fortunate I am. I live in gratitude. My body feels buoyant and a part of it all.

So which is the real feeling? The heavy one when I was sad, or the light one? They both are, but now I can clearly see how my perception creates which reality I wallow in.

I hope this helps and forgive me for the wordiness..

Originally posted by Malcram
reply to post by orangutang

 

Hi,

Yes, the title of the thread just reflects the depth of discomfort and the length of time in this position rather than a real belief that it wont end. I dont know what will or will not happen or when.

I have also read accounts of an intense protracted 'nervousness' prior to 'Enlightement'. I feel that and have done for some time. It would be nice if it was such a precursor but, as I never tire of saying, I dont know.

Yes, I agree that there are endless delays and distractions. Perhaps the entire attempt to reach 'Enlightement' through various efforts and concepts and doings and not doings is such a dead end, but the most ironic one of all.

Believe.

You think, thus you can't believe, just believe.

give in to what you are resisting,
some force is pushing, give in.

I don't know the last time you check this thread, but I hope you get this message.

I have been in the dark night of the soul for about 15 months now. It at times seems brutal and tough, especially physically. I must say before I go any further, and be honest, I have not read all the posts put up here.

I can suggest two things that have helped me, thus far. One is a talk by a woman named Caroline Myss. It is called Spiritual Madness. It explains exactly what you are saying, and what it is about. It takes a lot of stamina to go through this, I know it does. I will not give up, I just won't.

The second is a video on You Tube, www.youtube.com... , this is a great video. Between the words and the sound, I find it calming. It reminds me of who I am, what I am doing, that I can make it through it.

One other thing, you might want to find a mentor of some kind. I do not suggest your Doctor, as they tend to treat The Dark Night as depression. Although it is of sorts, it is nothing that a pill will fix.

Recently I was diagnosed with Temporal Lobe Epilepsy. Epilepsy is the Mystics disorder, many of them have had that, I have been on the Mystics path for some time. I don't like using religious words when explaining things, but sometimes it is necessary. The energy that is unleashed in the transformation is akin to kundalini energy. Mystics of all religions have experienced it. Though each religion, or belief system has their own terms for it.

I have better days, and worse days. For the most part I am doing OK now. I no longer feel the need to explain to anyone what I am going through, as most would never understand it. I have also gone through Ego Death, and until someone experiences that, well one can not explain that experience to another. Everything of who I was, has been shattered, and that is OK.

I cannot stress enough how much listening to Caroline Myss has helped me. What a gift her talks have been. I wish you all the best, and if you need support, or just someone to talk with.. please feel free to contact me...

Grace to you... Amy