Endless Dark Night Of The Soul.

reply to post by Malcram


Do you view "not-seeking" within the context of inaction or as an active experience?

It is tricky though. We must use our limited faculties to understand what is around us and within us. The boundaries of infinity and nothing are quite "close" in our perspective because of that, though likely do not hold relevance for "beyond," however one views that. It also indicates that, by our limited nature, the creation and destruction of how we view the world is an inevitably on many levels. Our understanding continues to change with our active observation, sometimes with great upheaval.

Science has taught me that no matter how clever of a concept I think I find, or how proud I am to have extrapolated workable patterns, that they are indicative of mechanics that have (likely) been in place since the beginning of this universe. So, in actively seeking what is already there (instead of seeking what is perceived to be "not there" in order to make it "there" or "find it") and paring it down to understandable and workable theories based on our limited nature is the basis behind scientific method and perhaps even "spirituality."

My own view may or may not be relevant to your own, but thank you for sharing yours.

reply to post by Frira


Thanks Frira,

Our experiences sound very similar. The idea that the breaking of the shell is inevitable because the gravity cannot be resisted is appealling. Because I dont feel I can 'do' any more anyway. I haven't the strength nor would I know what to do if I did.

So the notion of a natural, inevitable process, like being born, is literally refreshing. But as usual, its impossible for me to grasp it as a belief. Its just another idea, until its not.

But here's hoping, for both of us.

reply to post by DOADOA


There is no such thing as problems, just situations.

Good sir, you have already replied to my post, and thank you. But I keep reading, looking for an answer that I have missed that does not include being patient.

So many of us. What is the common denominator? What is it we all share that has us in this very weird state?

Several times, I have noted the OP and others have mentioned looking into the abyss. I don't know if that is part of the commonality, but it rang true. A few years ago, I had an excellent therapist, and I was trying to tie the very things the OP has expressed so well-- to tie those to my PTSD. She specialized in PTSD, so her thoughts were meaningful. It went something like this.
"It could be somehow tied to PTSD, but maybe more to the trauma not the reaction to it."
I said, "In what way?"
"You have looked into the abyss. Unlike most, you didn't turn away. You know what it is, and you cannot deny what you know-- while most people never dare look, you see it clearly, even now-- and always will. It changes people, and it makes them wise."

Moreover, I was spiritually prepared to look at horror and not look away.

----

Circumstances had me very interested in the tragedy of Somalia, in particular in Mogadishu. Gun fire and mortar fire-- a daily event. Starvation, thirst, disease-- a "normal" part of life in the midst of sudden violence. In other words, people who not only look into the abyss, but live there.

And I wonder... Those of us who live in the West (e.g., the US)-- has our society and security stripped away the ability from almost all to look into the abyss? Could it be that the few of us have regained what others have lost-- because we looked?

If so, would I not feel "normal" among such people as those who suffer in Somalia? Could it be that my deep sense of being alien-- is that because I live in a society which is almost wholly in denial?

Originally posted by Malcram


In my experience neither seeking nor not seeking yeild results. They generate experience, but not the One
sought. Some may say that while there is still desire for something, seeking is still happening, even if no action is being taken.

The sad truth is very few people are able to get beyond the ego self.
That is where you are stuck. I too after many decades am still stuck there.
It just a fact of life. Maybe it doesnt really make any difference because how long
does Enlightenment last? Even if you reach that stage when the body dies then what?
Eventually you get tired of the God Bliss and descend back into the lower planes.

Enlightenment is something that happens to a very few people, it isnt something
they cause to happen as I see it. It consumes them often against their will.

The Buddhists have a saying about the spiritual path, better not to begin it,if you
begin it better to finish it.

Have you read The KNee of LIstening. It is all about the Radical Understanding of No Seeking which seems
to fit your understanding. It is the Greatest Spiritual Book ever written. www.beezone.com
The best thing for you would be to find a True Siddha Guru who is able to Meditate You.
The True Guru does your meditation and is able open up and purify your chakras.

However
there are very few around so if you do find one let us know. Adi Da was one.

SITTING here in this room, alone, having read your opening post, i wish to say the following: being 47 and reflecting on the past - as a child i began visualising by instinct, a feeling, in my teens the same, at the age of 22 i created a business in london, it died, made a beautifull home, it was taken by the bank, my fiance left me, studied a new profession, made other people millions by my carefull management, ( i made nothing except an hourly wage) moved to a new country - set up a business - my partner stole all the money, lost my home, lived on the streets, met the girl of a life time (still missing her) could not pay the rent, lived on the streets - dangerous, ate food every three days, (true) went to supermarket dustbins at night) tried to keep my career alive - broken promises, made it back to england - homeless again on the streets - cold this time, friends i thought i had vanished, so alone i sit in this room, and for the first time i have no feeling - just emptyness, cold and sad, all my life i have believed in positive feelings come what may, my conclusion by believing has led me to the follwing, i dreamed of creating a family, nothing, i dreamed of a home nothing, i dreamed of my career worked 20 hours a day for almost 10 years, nothing, i dreamed of having a pension for retirement nothing, i dreamed of having friends to talk to and with nothing - so alone i sit in this room, feeling nothing - my advice put your faith in you and nothing else - for me thats a no - too many misses i stay living in the past now - spent the last 7 months again 20 hours aday searching for work - at 47 seem to old, younger better qualified people out there, ended up with nada nothing, - and what was my mistake - simple beleiving in something made out of nothing which is supposed to manifest when we keep the right vibrations going, sorry its a false economy and dont let anyone tell u different,.

Originally posted by minkykeka
SITTING here in this room, alone, having read your opening post, i wish to say the following: being 47 and reflecting on the past - as a child i began visualising by instinct, a feeling, in my teens the same, at the age of 22 i created a business in london, it died, made a beautifull home, it was taken by the bank, my fiance left me, studied a new profession, made other people millions by my carefull management, ( i made nothing except an hourly wage) moved to a new country - set up a business - my partner stole all the money, lost my home, lived on the streets, met the girl of a life time (still missing her) could not pay the rent, lived on the streets - dangerous, ate food every three days, (true) went to supermarket dustbins at night) tried to keep my career alive - broken promises, made it back to england - homeless again on the streets - cold this time, friends i thought i had vanished, so alone i sit in this room, and for the first time i have no feeling - just emptyness, cold and sad, all my life i have believed in positive feelings come what may, my conclusion by believing has led me to the follwing, i dreamed of creating a family, nothing, i dreamed of a home nothing, i dreamed of my career worked 20 hours a day for almost 10 years, nothing, i dreamed of having a pension for retirement nothing, i dreamed of having friends to talk to and with nothing - so alone i sit in this room, feeling nothing - my advice put your faith in you and nothing else - for me thats a no - too many misses i stay living in the past now - spent the last 7 months again 20 hours aday searching for work - at 47 seem to old, younger better qualified people out there, ended up with nada nothing, - and what was my mistake - simple beleiving in something made out of nothing which is supposed to manifest when we keep the right vibrations going, sorry its a false economy and dont let anyone tell u different,.

i can tell you right now minky, with confidence, i know exactly how you feel. i wish i can say it will get better but truth is, both you and i know this, it wont. just know you are not alone. keep moving, go as far as you can with all that you're worth no matter how treacherous their souls may be.

let go from all the pain ,worry ,hate,anger and flow with your experiences.

reply to post by Malcram


some very interesting answers here for you to consider, M. i feel you have reached a stage where you have to totally let go. dont know if i'm right but thats how it appears to me. perhaps you've still got some identification with mind and body. (i sure have)if there is total surrender there is none left to have any suffering. and perhaps enlightenment has its own timeline? i agree with rrokkyy that adi da's book, "the knee of listening" is an inspiration, as is "the book of the siddhas" by the same author. i read many of his books but after i read those two, adi da strolled into my living room, advised me that i'd be getting "heaven" when i wanted it as much as i did my then all consuming pastime. then he just blinked out/vanished and i sat there stunned, but knowing it was correct advice. nisigadatta in his book "i am that" writes that whatever attracts us holds us back. he advises that one must have an all consuming passion for the "real" and that that very passion is the greatest accelerator for the only "task" worth pursuing.

reply to post by minkykeka


I too, empathise with that feeling. But I wont say that it wont get better, because as always, I dont know. There is at least some freedom in realizing that we dont know. Full pessimism requires some belief. Yes, experience can lead you to expect more of the same but realizing you dont know anything for sure prevents you from fully accepting what experience tries to project into the future as a certain expectation, positive or negative.

reply to post by adamjagger11


If your experiences are 'pain, worry, hate, anger' etc. then how do you 'flow with them' while at the same time 'let go of them'?

To let go of them is to resist flowing with them, is it not? To flow with them is to allow them to be experienced, which brings us to square one?

reply to post by orangutang


Thanks.

Yes I was a big fan of Nisargadatta Maharaj at one time, among many others. I dont read books on these subjects any more, for a couple of reasons. One, I get pretty much nauseus when I do so and totally energetically repulsed. I think book reading, learning, unlearning, gathering information, is a stage and not even a particularly useful one, even if its inevitable. Then a saturation point is reached. There is a point, IMO, when its known and experienced that thinking, study, etc is absolutely futile and is on some ways a part of and symptom of 'the problem', rather than anything to do with the solution. Then reading 'spiritual books' may be experienced as unbearable due to its futility, like a man dying of thirst staring at paintings of cool, clear water.

This will probably seem incomprehensible and quite wrong to some.

But there it is.

hey doadoa thanks for the thought and reply appreciated much.
i wonder if perhaps you have experienced similar, if not then count your blessings
you do often wonder how many other people have this burden, one thing however what i really miss is a beautifull morning sunrise, a warm colorfull sunset, the gentle nature of spanish people, their kindness, compassion, the feeling of a warm day turning into the chill of the night, the sound of the sea and waves upon the beach, palm trees swaying in the breeze and the panavison views, simple things really..but hey thanks for the thought appreciated.

Originally posted by dyllels

I agree with you here. Sometimes when I'm talking to someone, I will have a conversation while thinking about tons of other stuff. It's like part of your brain is being the human it needs to be, while the extra part of you is sort of 'floating' from place to place pondering what is really going on (making observations, drawing connections, etc.)
Sometimes, I snap out of it and realize that I've been having an in-depth conversation (in which I remember everything said word for word), although I never really felt present at all.

Is that familiar to you? Most of what you said seems to tie in with my current life, and I too am interested in the answers. Many thanks.

edit on 9-7-2011 by dyllels because: Quoting problems

I didn't read much of the rest of the discussion, but i think i can comment on this, or at least relate. Like The OP i have been wandering, wondering what is. Reality as a whole seems to me a fabrication of our minds (mind). Exploring it often yeilds little or no results or answers, and as such i continue my journey, and flow with the universe.

To relate to this post though, i find myself often detached from a conversation. My girlfriend will be talking to me and she will stop and say "what are you thinking about?" and I am really unable to answer her. Is it because she will think i am crazy? no not so much, but maybe more that she won't understand, and it would take a VERY long time to explain it. The point is, i am detached from reality, walking in two worlds if you will. Physical existence, and the metaphysical (astral, divine, spiritual, whatever). The main benefit of this (in the physical world) is that i can take a step back from reality when i want to evaluate something, and i am able to look at it from all sides, and understand the situation completely. Does this make me better than anyone else? certainly not, and those of us who are fortunate enough to experience these phenomenon must always remember that.

I realize i went a little off on a tangent there, but i hope it helps someone some where..

if it is possbile would anybody here perhaps shed some light on how i can transform this situation as for the life of me i cant feel anything its like being a brick, i just dont or cant comprehend this, help would be so so appreciated.

Originally posted by minkykeka
if it is possbile would anybody here perhaps shed some light on how i can transform this situation as for the life of me i cant feel anything its like being a brick, i just dont or cant comprehend this, help would be so so appreciated.

Feel like a brick? Not really alive?

If you get a minute, try reading my reply to the OP on page 1. May sound a bit crazy, but it could also be a way forward. (It's helped me tremendously.)

Good luck!

JR

reply to post by Malcram


i heartily agree on this. it only remains to continue self enquiry until the mind shuts down. this is as i understand it. i'm sure you know this unless you have abandoned the whole concept.

reply to post by orangutang


Hi, yes I've abandoned it as a belief - as in, 'I must self enquire because I have read/been told that self enquiry leads to x, y and z'. But my experience is that a degree of self enquiry will compulsively continue, wished for or not, as long as someone is compelled to seek 'the solution' by a 'pain' to which they can find no specific cause or remedy.

Where I'm at is that when in grip of this 'pain', which is almost always, with nothing serving as a distraction any longer, then my mind will 'self enquire' as background chatter, but its just another expression of the babbling 'monkey mind' and I havent the will or energy to pay attention to it, nor to attempt to stop it. Both attempts would be futile anyway, as self enquiry just tells you what you are not and once thats realized, it just confronts you with absolute unknowing. Once you absolutely know what you are not and absolutely do not know what you are then self further enquiry is just more meaningless mental chatter. Pointless but unstoppable.

As I said earlier, at that point even the words 'who' 'am' and 'I' dont mean anything anymore, and even if the mind compulsively repeats them, they are experienced basically as meaningless sounds.

Not sure if that will make sense.

reply to post by Malcram


Who is it that is watching your mind chatter away?

reply to post by Serdgiam


I don't know.

There is experience. Perceptual habit divides it up into subject and objects and experience follows suit. But so what?

Am I supposed to form a belief regarding something watching something else and then identify with one or the other, or both, or neither? I've done so in the past. But I can't do that anymore. The mind is endlessly reflective when asked to be. It can watch itself watching the self that watches itself, and so on, endlessly. And its all the same.

If you are asking me if I identify myself as the mind that chatters or that which watches it chatter then the answer is, neither. There is available the experience of being either, depending on apparent focus. But experience is just experience and mind, whether empty, or observing, or chattering, is still mind. We may choose to identify with and elevate one state over another, but I experience it as all the same, and can't identify with any although I can experience all. And it's all transient and changing and all feels hollow and 'unauthentic'.