Without the Shedding of Blood there can be no Remission of Sin

reply to post by BigDenzil
Thanks for clearing that up.
So what you mean when you say We, is that this is the accepted view, and then when you give your own opinion, you say, I.
I wasn't questioning the content of your post so much as the style.
I had looked at some of your older posts and saw the same sort of use of the word we.
I wondered what that meant. Not questioning your faith or anything.

In the Book of Hebrews quote Icarus Rising gave on the previous page, it talks about how Jesus went into the Temple not made by human hand. I want to quote the verses that continue on right where his quote stops.

For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a young cow sprinkled on those who are defiled consecrated them and provided ritual purity, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our consciences from dead works to worship the living God.
And so he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the eternal inheritance he has promised, since he died to set them free from the violations committed under the first covenant. For where there is a will, the death of the one who made it must be proven. For a will takes effect only at death, since it carries no force while the one who made it is alive. So even the first covenant was inaugurated with blood. For when Moses had spoken every command to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats with water and scarlet wool and hyssop and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, and said, “This is the blood of the covenant that God has commanded you to keep.”

This seems to be the relevant O.T. passage that is being referred to

Moses came and told the people all the Lord’s words and all the decisions. All the people answered together,
“We are willing to do all the words that the Lord has said,”
and Moses wrote down all the words of the Lord. Early in the morning he built an altar at the foot of the mountain and arranged twelve standing stones – according to the twelve tribes of Israel. He sent young Israelite men, and they offered burnt offerings and sacrificed young bulls for peace offerings to the Lord. Moses took half of the blood and put it in bowls, and half of the blood he splashed on the altar. He took the Book of the Covenant and read it aloud to the people, and they said,
“We are willing to do and obey all that the Lord has spoken.”
So Moses took the blood and splashed it on the people and said,
“This is the blood of the covenant that the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words.”

My point was that there is a confusion and one I was also taught, that the scene in Heaven that Hebrews is describing, is a sin offering to make atonement, while the author does not say that explicitly. I think there is this assumption because the topic was discussed right before this part.
What needs to be closely examined is this part of the Hebrews text.

since he died to set them free from the violations committed under the first covenant.

What I was taught, if I can just give the slogan, is that "Jesus died to free us from the penalty of the Law, not to free us from the Law." That may seem odd to most Christians but basically that's what it boiled down to in my particular church. After taking into consideration this concept of blood sacrifice, I feel I need to completely reverse what I professed previously with that slogan.
What does this mean, free us from the violations and what is the purpose of the blood? Well, to start with, we might want to know one thing, which is that to enter the holiest part of the Temple, an earthly High Priest needed to first enter with the blood of a bull to make an atonement for himself. Jesus would not need that if he was already sin free. So what did he need blood for? Proof of death? Kind of sounds like it. The author of Hebrews goes on to explain it by comparing it to a will and the giving of an inheritance and that first there had to be a determination of death of the one giving the inheritance. Did Jesus free us from the transgression of the law by making a satisfaction for the demand of the payment of a death penalty? No, he frees us from it by doing away with the thing that produces the situation which calls for that demand.

The post just before this one is something I could barely write because I had to overcome the natural inclination to just hold to previously accepted concepts and to not innovate.
If I had so much trouble, there should be others who would react to reading this in an equally strong sort of way because of its going against accepted and repeated slogans of whatever particular religion you were taught to be supportive of.
I invite criticism of my conclusion to this post I am writing about that was put up at 7 hours before this one.
I was being perhaps a bit harsh in earlier posts in this thread and it has to do with my idea that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs which I do not see coming, but rebukes against those who would request such proof.
I would like someone who is in love with the suffering Christ who paid for your sins to come forward now and back that up with reasoned arguments from the New Testament.

To simplify things I am posting the first 20 results from a search for "Christ payed for our sins".
We can start by going over these 20 verses, or bring in one of your results from your own search.

1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!

Rom 6:23 For the payoff of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1Co 15:3 For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received – that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures,

Gal 2:17 But if while seeking to be justified in Christ we ourselves have also been found to be sinners, is Christ then one who encourages sin? Absolutely not!

Rom 6:6 We know that our old man was crucified with him so that the body of sin would no longer dominate us, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

1Jo 3:5 And you know that Jesus was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.

Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ – the faithful witness, the firstborn from among the dead, the ruler over the kings of the earth. To the one who loves us and has set us free from our sins at the cost of his own blood

Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Eph 2:5 even though we were dead in transgressions, made us alive together with Christ – by grace you are saved! –

2Co 5:21 God made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that in him we would become the righteousness of God.

Rom 5:21 so that just as sin reigned in death, so also grace will reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 6:11 So you too consider yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Gal 5:24 Now those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Heb 9:28 so also, after Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many, to those who eagerly await him he will appear a second time, not to bear sin but to bring salvation.

Gal 1:4 who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from this present evil age according to the will of our God and Father,

1Jo 2:1 (My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. ) But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous One,

Rom 8:2 For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death.

Col 2:13 And even though you were dead in your transgressions and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, he nevertheless made you alive with him, having forgiven all your transgressions.

1Co 1:30 He is the reason you have a relationship with Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption,

1Co 1:8 He will also strengthen you to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 15:3 For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received – that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures,

This one seems to me to be the closest match to the extraordinary claims I was addressing in my last few posts on this thread so I should start here and anyone, feel free to jump in whenever you want, to add your own commentary.
Paul here is using the plural form for scripture, and his usage in this way, normally for him, indicates he is not referring to a specific scripture but just scripture in a general sense.
It would seem reasonable to me that what Paul means is not that the death of Christ was to fulfill a prophecy so much as that this death and what it involved would be things that would be in harmony with principles laid out in the Old Testament.
To speculate a bit, to read thoughts into Paul's words, he is probably thinking of the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53. He does not see a direct one to one correlation between that older story, and the Gospel events. He thinks there are concepts spelled out in that analogy or whatever it is, that apply perfectly to Jesus but does not want to push the issue further than is supportable.

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
reply to post by felonius

 

Very interesting angle. You may be on to something I hadn't considered here. I will look into it some more. Perhaps you could be more detailed as to your line of reasoning? I appreciate your effort to stay on topic as well.

In the past, Churchs/Temples ALWAYS claimed a "blood" victim.

The "church/temple" is female.

Hmmm. Could jehovah 1 have been female?

By the letters, it is androgynous and the female aspect in this case (our topic) is active.

thats a neat road to go down.

Well considering that the name JHVH (Yod Hey Vav Hey) is comprised of alternating active / passive - male/female letters...or energies, it would explain a great deal of weirdness about how JHVH could contradict it self at times. This is not considering the butchering of the words by humans.

IF I am not mistaken, the Shekinah is supposed to dwell in all alters of western temples. Shekinah is feminine.

If you havent, I highly recomment you read some of Dion Fortunes "fiction". Moon magic and Sea Priestess. Abe Books online is super cheap. Her stuff is tough to find at a half price book store. That stuff almost literally runs away.

That lady knew the goddess....and she was christian-

gnostic!

reply to post by jmdewey60


Was out all afternoon yesterday and at church all this morning. Heard a powerful message on Ephesians 5:22-33. I am somewhat overwhelmed and in digestive mode. Will try to get back later and review what you have written. Must admit I was somewhat put off by what I considered your adversarial approach and had quit responding to you. Please forgive my previous negative attitude.

reply to post by felonius


Trying to wrap my brain around this feminine aspect of God you postulate. Will look into the reading you suggest.

I don't believe the God I know would ask for human sacrifice to appease wrongdoing (as I related in the opening post) on this side of the Cross. It was the Gibeonites who wanted the blood of Saul's line to appease their wrath. David asked what they required, he didn't offer anything. Perhaps this was the consequence of breaking the treaty; he had to give the Gibeonites what they demanded in return.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
God doesn't like some things we do, calls them sins, and dislikes them so much he wants to kill us all. But, you can make it up to him if you satisfy his bloodlust.

You are right---and that is one of the main reasons so many Christians have left the faith, but that's because we have all been tricked by the rampaging Impostor Demi-god of the Old Testament, who is completely different to the Real, Joyful God of the New Testament. The Real God demands no blood nor rituals nor apocalypses nor sacrifices---no, not the life of the tiniest creature! Nor did He send His Son to be crucified to somehow "appease" Himself ! It was the Impostor Demi-god who crucified Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, to silence His message from the Real God. Please see the thread called "There are Two Gods".

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
reply to post by felonius

 

Trying to wrap my brain around this feminine aspect of God you postulate.

This "feminine" idea is leading us toward the New World Order "Global Goddess" religion, in which the "male" gods of all the major religions are being replaced by a female goddess: worship of the goddess "Guan Yin", complete with babe-in-arms, is replacing the Buddha in Chinese temples, Muslims are increasing their veneration of "Lady Fatima", and the alarming new "Lady of All Nations, Formerly Known As Mary", depicted as standing in front of the cross, with her bare feet planted upon the whole globe, and Jesus Christ Our Lord and Saviour nowhere to be seen. "Her" website below has a new prayer we're all supposed to pray, in which Herself and the Holy Spirit completely REPLACE God and Jesus Christ. Please have a look at these two websites, if you have time:

www.tomorrowsworld.org...

www.ladyofallnations.org...

reply to post by Tib50

The Real God demands no blood nor rituals nor apocalypses nor sacrifices---no, not the life of the tiniest creature! Nor did He send His Son to be crucified to somehow "appease" Himself !

God made a sacrifice which He gave himself. There is a well known verse which says as much, John 3:16.
Jesus did sacrifice a lot and throughout his entire life and death and will sacrifice into eternity, being of our form as a human, when if he so chose could be something much grander.
The appeasement or satisfaction of the Law would be the perfect life of Jesus, in which no fault could be found.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Tib50

 

The Real God demands no blood nor rituals nor apocalypses nor sacrifices---no, not the life of the tiniest creature! Nor did He send His Son to be crucified to somehow "appease" Himself !

God made a sacrifice which He gave himself. There is a well known verse which says as much, John 3:16.
Jesus did sacrifice a lot and throughout his entire life and death and will sacrifice into eternity, being of our form as a human, when if he so chose could be something much grander.
The appeasement or satisfaction of the Law would be the perfect life of Jesus, in which no fault could be found.

But the VERY FIRST CANON OF THE BIBLE rejects John, and the Law, and Matthew, Mark, and everything except most of Luke and most of the Pauline Epistles! It is Christianity in its simplest, purest form, without any "mysteries". And I don't think most Christians would be happy with the idea of Jesus having to keep sacrificing into eternity! Who is He sacrificing to, and why is it necessary? Didn't He ransom us once and for all when the satan/lucifer caused men to sacrifice Him?

It almost seems as if you are suggesting that Jesus was somehow captured as an eternal hostage by satan/lucifer! If that's the case, then it's high time we rescued Him!

reply to post by Tib50
Sorry if you are upset by my reply.
I am annoying that way where I quote other peoples comments, then add my own comments.
Kind of a habit I have picked up from being on forums so much.
I'm not being sarcastic, in case you are wondering.
I just found a couple statements that would be convenient to play off of a bit to make some clarifications of earlier statements I made which some people could take as being ambiguous.
I wasn't forming a refutation of your beliefs. It was just there and hard to resist since it is hard to find anything substantial at all to latch onto, for any reason.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I agree with your conclusion at the end of your post. It dovetails with Christ proclaiming "It is finished!" as He gave up His life on the Cross.

Matthew 5:17

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."

Ephesians 2:13-17

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

reply to post by Tib50


I equate this with Lilith, who very well may have been the one described as a serpent in the Garden. Certainly jealous of Eve and her relationship to Adam, she may have sought to drive a wedge between the first couple and their Creator.

Genesis 3:4-5

Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

When I look at the verses following God's discovery (as if He didn't know) of what had transpired, I see a new interpretation.

Genesis 3:13-14

And the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
So the LORD God said to the serpent:
“ Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.

"On your belly you shall go", doesn't have to refer to a mode of travel. It can refer to a spiritual state of eternal separation in the outer darkness, subsisting solely in the flesh on food ingested for survival. "And you shall eat dust" may be a reference to the serpent seeking to consume men in their fallen state.

Genesis 17a,19b

Then to Adam He said,"....For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”

reply to post by Icarus Rising
I don't know if you are interested in a cantankerous old guy's opinions but here is another thought;
The scoffers said what when Jesus was being crucified?
*pause for affect*
He could save others but could not save himself.
Think about if there are people virtually saying the same thing.
He was not able to escape---what?
Jesus said something like, if you do that (bad) thing you will not be released from the toll house untill every (small increment of money) is paid.
What did Jesus have to pay for to be locked up?
Nothing because he beat the troll.
This probably makes no sense but something I thought up today.
The point being he did save himself by doing something really great that we will have eternity to try to understand.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I think I may be with you on this. It goes along with the reconciliation spoken of in Ephesians 2.

Matthew 5:24b

First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

I believe this to be a big part of the mission He left us. He showed us the selfless Way. We need to follow.

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

I think I may be with you on this. It goes along with the reconciliation spoken of in Ephesians 2.

Matthew 5:24b

First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

I believe this to be a big part of the mission He left us. He showed us the selfless Way. We need to follow.

Verse 15 (first part) of that chapter, Ephesians 2.
What in the world does that mean?
We really can't know exactly.
He did do something and we will praise him in person, thanks to whatever it is.

Washing away guilt - an age-old tradition.

I read earlier in this thread that the understanding of the scriptures is locked away for unbelievers. If that's the case, how are unbelievers supposed to become believers? What else is locked away from us? Is the understanding of preaching from pastors and other christians locked away from us? Are we just doomed from the start? If we can't muster the faith to believe, we will be punished forever?