A Challenge for Believers in God.

Originally posted by Prezbo369

Originally posted by edmc^2


Help someone repent from immoral acts and ask forgiveness from God.

Forgiveness via vicarious redemption. Dismissing your own personal responsibility and allowing another to take it upon themselves. In other words scapegoating.

Extremely immoral.

"Allowing another to take it upon themselves"? I could be mistaken, but I don't think I was born yet, nor had a vote in the matter when Christ incarnated and gave Himself freely for me. I just thank Him with humble joy. That's why He is the hero of the story, not me. Looking towards ourselves for redemption for our sin is like an alcoholic going to the bar to drink more to free himself from alcoholism.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Redeeming yourself was the way in the OT (thru repenting, belief, and works; i.e. following the Law) without the need for Jesus. And your analogy is wrong; it should be an alcoholic goes to AA (or equivalent) so he can quit drinking for good.

Originally posted by novastrike81
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Redeeming yourself was the way in the OT (thru repenting, belief, and works; i.e. following the Law) without the need for Jesus. And your analogy is wrong; it should be an alcoholic goes to AA (or equivalent) so he can quit drinking for good.

No, my analogy isn't wrong. I'm mocking the absurd idea that we can look within our sinful selves to redeem our sinful selves. If redemption was through following the law, as Paul argues in Galatians, then how was Abraham justified? Issac and Jacob? Joseph, Noah and Adam? These people all were justified before the law was given. And furthermore, in OT times people didn't atone for their own sins, the High Priest would lay the sins of the people on a goat and slaughter the goat once a year on the Day of Atonement, this would cover the sins of the people for the previous year. The law was given so we'd sin more, so "sin would abound". The law merely gives us the perfect standard God demands. We shouldn't toil to keep the law, none of us can, but the law should drive us to the foot of the cross. The law's entire purpose was to show man that he was incapable of being perfect to justify himself before a perfect God.

All these OT folks looked forward to a coming Messiah, we look back to that messiah. Jesus is still the hero of the story for us and those in the OT times.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I must have missed the idea you were mocking in a previous post.

You aren't redeemed by following the Law, you also had to believe and repent. Abraham and the others you listed are prime examples. Abraham was allowed into heaven because of those three things I listed; not a lack there of. Ezekiel 18, Psalms 103, Psalms 119, to name a few outline these requirements. The animal sacrifices are part of the procedure to atonement and righteousness. There is no need for a human sacrifice unless you can show me in the Hebrew texts that outline the need for a human sin sacrifice.

Also, I can't recall any verses that mention Abraham looking forward to the messiah coming. Or anyone else in or around his lifetime. Nor do any prophecies mention Jesus' name specifically. A messiah is mentioned so its vagueness left it open.

Originally posted by novastrike81
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I must have missed the idea you were mocking in a previous post.

You aren't redeemed by following the Law, you also had to believe and repent. Abraham and the others you listed are prime examples. Abraham was allowed into heaven because of those three things I listed; not a lack there of. Ezekiel 18, Psalms 103, Psalms 119, to name a few outline these requirements. The animal sacrifices are part of the procedure to atonement and righteousness. There is no need for a human sacrifice unless you can show me in the Hebrew texts that outline the need for a human sin sacrifice.

Also, I can't recall any verses that mention Abraham looking forward to the messiah coming. Or anyone else in or around his lifetime. Nor do any prophecies mention Jesus' name specifically. A messiah is mentioned so its vagueness left it open.

Abraham, and all the OT "righteous" didn't go to heaven. They went to "Abraham's Bosom" or "paradise" which was a compartment in the Earth separated from Hades/hell by a great chasm. When Christ died He descended into the Earth to preach to the "captives in prison". To bring out the righteous. Because His blood and death made final atonement for sin, where as before their sins were merely covered. When Christ resurrected Himself He brought those from Abraham's Bosom/Paradise with Him, and when He ascended He took them to heaven.

The point being, men since Adam were always justified by faith, the judgment on sin happened at Calvary. Where God "made Christ sin", and poured out His wrath on sin at that time.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


One could argue that paradise can be considered heaven. At least that's the impression I was given when I was early into Christian theology.

Regardless, it doesnt answer the point that no mention of a human sacrifice is found in the OT Law and only shows up in revisionist theology; namely the NT. So by that admission alone, Jesus broke one of God's laws; well one of his own Laws if you feel Jesus IS God. An interesting conundrum if you ask me.

Originally posted by novastrike81
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

One could argue that paradise can be considered heaven. At least that's the impression I was given when I was early into Christian theology.
Regardless, it doesnt answer the point that no mention of a human sacrifice is found in the OT Law and only shows up in revisionist theology; namely the NT. So by that admission alone, Jesus broke one of God's laws; well one of his own Laws if you feel Jesus IS God. An interesting conundrum if you ask me.

Jesus died. That is a fact. Jesus said, If I be lifted up.
He did not mean lifted up like Elijah, to remain alive, for being righteous, but by being put on display on a cross so that all saw that he did die, even though he was righteous, and if he so chose, could have avoided death. Before this event, on the Mount of Transfiguration, he met with two men, one I already mentioned, the second was Moses who offered to die for Israel and had that offer turned down by God. Moses was given a natural death from old age but had some sort of resurrection to go to heaven. Then we have this great meeting of these three men and the result was Jesus having another way, which was to accept the fate given man after the expulsion from the Garden, which is to work for your living and then to return to the earth from which you were made.
Jesus was able to through his death as a righteous man, something never done before, enter into a holy spiritual realm as a representative of man, bring about a new covenant which superseded all previous covenants and pronouncements, to not atone for the things of the old covenant, but to take that away and its power to demand death.

Originally posted by novastrike81
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

One could argue that paradise can be considered heaven. At least that's the impression I was given when I was early into Christian theology.

No, paradise was "Abraham's Bosom". Remember Christ's parable about Lazarus and the poor man.

Regardless, it doesnt answer the point that no mention of a human sacrifice is found in the OT Law and only shows up in revisionist theology; namely the NT. So by that admission alone, Jesus broke one of God's laws; well one of his own Laws if you feel Jesus IS God. An interesting conundrum if you ask me.

Dude, every feast, Holy day, ritual and weird quirky thing God did in the OT pointed to Christ. The great discovery in reading the OT is Christ can be found on every page. Like when the people were bitten by poisonous snakes. Moses asks God to heal those bitten and God commands Moses to erect a brass serpent on a pole and that anyone who merely looks upon it will be healed. That makes absolutely no sense at all, God could have just healed them. But when we get to the NT Jesus explains it foreshadowed Him being hung on the cross and anyone who looked to Him would be saved. Brass was the Levitical metal for judgment. Snake was symbolic for sin in the OT. Brass serpent = sin judged.

Day of atonement example: The High priest took two identical goats. One one goat he'd place the sins of the people and it would be slaughtered. The other goat, the "scapegoat' would be let free into the wilderness. When Jesus was condemned He had the sins of the world placed on Him and was slaughtered by God His father. The other man, Barabbas was set free. In the OT times they were two identical goats. In the NT times, Jesus was the Son of God, "Barabbas" was his last name, Joshua was his first name. Bar = "Son of", Abba = "Father", so you have Yeshua/Joshua the Son of God (Father) and Yeshua/Joshua son of the Father. One was set free, one was crushed with the sins of the world place upon His shoulders.

I could go on, and on, and on. Everything in the OT pointed to Christ.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

No, paradise was "Abraham's Bosom". Remember Christ's parable about Lazarus and the poor man.

Yes, I do. It's actually one of my favorite stories. Although I'm no good at dissecting it's meaning. I enjoy the message it gives mainly.

Day of atonement example: The High priest took two identical goats. One one goat he'd place the sins of the people and it would be slaughtered. The other goat, the "scapegoat' would be let free into the wilderness. When Jesus was condemned He had the sins of the world placed on Him and was slaughtered by God His father. The other man, Barabbas was set free. In the OT times they were two identical goats. In the NT times, Jesus was the Son of God, "Barabbas" was his last name, Joshua was his first name. Bar = "Son of", Abba = "Father", so you have Yeshua/Joshua the Son of God (Father) and Yeshua/Joshua son of the Father. One was set free, one was crushed with the sins of the world place upon His shoulders.

I could go on, and on, and on. Everything in the OT pointed to Christ.

Had to cut out a parapraph, mobile ATS sucks!

Anyway, I do see the symbolism you speak of but only because of the revisionist theology. It does beg the question on a literal view versus the symbolic non literal view. It makes discussion difficult. Some wish to see a strict literal, some pick the parts that fit, others just read it for what it is. Although I can see your symbolism or parallels as pointing towarda Christ; I don't feel it lends credence to absolute proof that OT > NT.

I would like to think that what you say is true but the light bulb doesn't turn on. It seems like a lot of jumping through hoops to arrive at a conclusion. What God would make his Word so complicated and controversial? T each his own.

reply to post by novastrike81


How did you get an edit with my screename on your post? lol Anyways,..

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at with your claim of "revisionism". The Old Covenant was just that, the Old one. Christ instituted the New Covenant during the last supper. The entire purpose of the nation of Israel was to bring about the Messiah. The entire purpose of everything recorded in the OT was to point to the life, death, and resurrection of that Messiah. The entire book points to Jesus.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by novastrike81

 

How did you get an edit with my screename on your post? lol Anyways,..

I work in mysterious ways!

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at with your claim of "revisionism". The Old Covenant was just that, the Old one. Christ instituted the New Covenant during the last supper. The entire purpose of the nation of Israel was to bring about the Messiah. The entire purpose of everything recorded in the OT was to point to the life, death, and resurrection of that Messiah. The entire book points to Jesus.

The Jews don't view it this way. They're still waiting for their Messiah to arrive.

Originally posted by novastrike81
Nor do any prophecies mention Jesus' name specifically. A messiah is mentioned so its vagueness left it open.

edit on 27-7-2011 by novastrike81 because: (no reason given)

edit on 27-7-2011 by novastrike81 because: (no reason given)

While there is no direct mention of Jesus by name, there are some prophecies which make it pretty clear that God had a plan to sacrifice one of His Servants for sin. I could do a whole study on this but here are some verses that stand out the most to me.

Isaiah 53:5-12

5 .......But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities;
6........And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.

I can't think of anyone else who these verses could apply to other than Jesus.

reply to post by jmdewey60


So God sacrificed himself so he could represent his own creation in Heaven at his own right hand side next to his other two selves? Sorry if that sounds ignorant to believers but that's how it comes across.

Also you mention covenants. I'm only aware of the Old and New Covenants. Also could you elaborate on pronouncements so there is no confusion, please?

Originally posted by novastrike81
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

So God sacrificed himself so he could represent his own creation in Heaven at his own right hand side next to his other two selves? Sorry if that sounds ignorant to believers but that's how it comes across.
Also you mention covenants. I'm only aware of the Old and New Covenants. Also could you elaborate on pronouncements so there is no confusion, please?

For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him.

So there is a separation among the various god entities where there were at a minimum, two. In this passage, you have first, God, and then you have what is referred to as His Son. So it is not as simple as just saying God sacrificed himself. The Son was Son previous to coming to Earth as a man, and as a man, was still that same person as was earlier a god entity, though not having all those god qualities such as the extraordinary powers and abilities. What abilities Jesus needed were provided to him in a way appropriate to be given to a human being.
Jesus having himself been a god and directly associated to God Himself, the Supreme Being, the Uniquely One, and having served as the sole direct representative for The One, to all creation, he, as a person had a sort of spiritual linkage of the minds, with God that he had at birth and never allowed anything in his life to interfere with that link or to allow personal ambitions to bring about a reason for breaking it. In this way, choosing always the better way, Jesus was able to live a sinless life, though being of a race of men being corrupted by generations living in a general state of sin, in a sinful world.
Having retained a condition of sinlessness he had options available to him which would not have been available to his predecessors, such as Moses and David to did commit serious sins against God during their lifetimes. Then you arrive at the point of the story I was talking about in my last post.
The covenants are the ones made between God and Adam (Adamic), Noah (Noahic), David (Davidic), Abraham/Abram (Abramic), Moses (Mosaic/Sinaitic/Old Covenant), then you have the New Covenant which is the one made between the Man, Jesus and God.
The pronouncements would be things like what I mentioned earlier, which some people like to call the Curses.
The Jesus Covenant takes the place of and abolishes the earlier covenants and curses, to where you don't have to accept that you will just die and turn to dust forever, or have to worry about who one of your ancient ancestors were who may have offended God one way or another to get an everlasting curse. What was previously everlasting are broken, and that was by a divine act done by a unique individual who had inherent, and earned qualities associated with him, that no other person in history ever had, who was able to bring into affect the best covenent for the people of Earth, with God and we are all included regardless of nationality.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker


Most people would look at that verse and see Jesus based on the words alone. Let me ask you this: what do you think the meaning of verse 10 is saying?

Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his seed and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

Jesus only lived to be 33, and he never had children. So that's the biggest obstacle with your verses. It's speaking of the nation of Israel. I can show that to you now.

Isaiah 49:3
And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

So you see, what you proposed CAN NOT be about Jesus, it even says so a few chapters before!

reply to post by novastrike81
I'm with you as far as the OT not matching up with Jesus as far as being a verse to verse corespondence.
Jesus apparently had some prophecies not in today's canon, that he was working off of.
Later, when the Gospels were written, they were at a loss to where the prophecies could be found and just made things up by saying, Isaiah or Jeremiah.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by novastrike81

 

I'm with you as far as the OT not matching up with Jesus as far as being a verse to verse corespondence.
Jesus apparently had some prophecies not in today's canon, that he was working off of.

I would be interested in seeing which verses you refer to.

Later, when the Gospels were written, they were at a loss to where the prophecies could be found and just made things up by saying, Isaiah or Jeremiah.

I believe all the prophecies of the OT attributed to Jesus were in fact, corroborated in such a way as to create the Jesus Christians worship today. This is probably one of the reasons why Jews don't accept him as the Messiah. That's just my opinion, and I'm sure some scholars would arrive at similar conclusions.

Originally posted by novastrike81
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

Most people would look at that verse and see Jesus based on the words alone. Let me ask you this: what do you think the meaning of verse 10 is saying?

Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his seed and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

Jesus only lived to be 33, and he never had children. So that's the biggest obstacle with your verses. It's speaking of the nation of Israel. I can show that to you now.

Isaiah 49:3
And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

So you see, what you proposed CAN NOT be about Jesus, it even says so a few chapters before!

I really don't like to interpret scripture because for the most part it speaks for itself. However, I think this one requires a little explaining. This is my understanding and of course it is open for scrutiny, but this is what I believe that part of the verse is saying.

.....He shall see his seed......
The seed spoken about here is the followers of Jesus Christ which today are in the millions. Once we come to believe in Christ or even God for that matter we become his offspring.

Acts 17
28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’
29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, ......

Revelation 12:17
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Romans 8
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ.....

......he shall prolong his days.........
This is a clear prophecy of the resurrection of Christ. The only way for the servant mentioned here to prolong his days would be if he rose from the dead.

Acts 17
31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

Without quoting every scripture, we know that when Christ returns His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, thus prolonging his days.

Daniel 7:13-14
13 “ I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.

Like I said, this is my interpretation so I don't expect anyone to believe it. But if one reads the whole chapter it pretty much makes it clear that someone is being sacrificed on behalf of the people.

reply to post by novastrike81

I believe all the prophecies of the OT attributed to Jesus were in fact, corroborated in such a way as to create the Jesus Christians worship today.

And what is your conclusion based on?
I would say that all Christian Bible scholars recognize that the prophecies written about in the Gospels can not be "corroborated".

Originally posted by novastrike81
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

Most people would look at that verse and see Jesus based on the words alone. Let me ask you this: what do you think the meaning of verse 10 is saying?

Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his seed and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

think these may help you out and know it gives a whole new interpretation to longsuffering

When the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Galatians4

The sting of death is sin; and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Corinthians

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hebrews9

And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Revelation5

the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God
1Timothy

For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
Zecheriah3

Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Isaiah1

For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Hebrews4

And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son? And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool. David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?
Luke20

Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Matthew21

His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Revelation19

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace
Ephesians2

Jesus only lived to be 33, and he never had children. So that's the biggest obstacle with your verses. It's speaking of the nation of Israel. I can show that to you now.

Isaiah 49:3
And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

So you see, what you proposed CAN NOT be about Jesus, it even says so a few chapters before!

yodelayhewho

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Romans9

Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John8

he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew15

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Acts2

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me
John10

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Acts4

For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
Mark3

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent
John6

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1John2

and I will write upon him my new name.
Revelation3

For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh
Philippians3

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Romans9

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Galatians3

Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

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