The Scientific Case for Astrology

If you can accept a 10 day weather forecast, you can accept Astrology.

It's just using data to make predictions. For instance, if you have 100 similar birth charts and 70% married before they turned 25, you can then say to someone with a similar birth chart that you're probably married. Now, it's not 100% so the Astrologer will not be right 100% of the time.

This is a mistake created by skeptics. Either it's 100% or it's false. It's not supernatural, it's just using data to predict and forecast future events or people with similar traits.

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
reply to post by drakus

 

Again, you need to read what I'm saying.

Okay, I'll read.

There's a causual link between people with similar birth charts and the alignment of the planets.

I think you meant a link between the alignment of planets and people's traits
And that supposed link is based on? Where's the evidence to PROVE that claim?
You don't really think science works that way, right? You don't just "say" something and then look for explanations...
If you want to research why some people share some traits then you should FIRST establish ALL factors that affect ALL of the test subjects, not only their freaking birthtime, but also their socioeconomic background, family ideology/cosmovision, society in which he grows, etc, etc... If you don't do that YOU ARE NOT FOLLOWING THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD
And if you don't follow the scientific method YOU ARE NOT MAKING SCIENCE
If you want Astrology to be taken as a science you have to be scientifically rigurous

Astrologers are not guessing when they say you usually take a long time to commit to a relationship like in the video. It's because a percentage of people who share similar birth charts share the same trait. This is why the women then said, she dated her current husband for 25 years before they got married.

And what does some random common fact (people take time to commit to relationships) have to do with anything.
It's NOT because they were born "under the same alignment" is because THEY ARE HUMANS, that's a HUMAN TRAIT, pretty easy not to miss when your target is the whole universe.....

These things are based on the birth chart and the alignment of planets. If you have an alternate hypothesis why people with similar birth charts share similar traits then present it.

I'd say PEOPLE (just people) share similar traits. And those traits express differently not only from person to person but also within the time of a person's life, we change, our traits change, we are not predetermined....


AGAIN: You seem to see me as an enemy of astrology, which I'm not, as I said, I actually enjoy it, and I enjoy it without the need for it to be taken as "science", asi I said earlier, IT IS WHAT IT IS, another human discipline.

Peace

Drakus

reply to post by LOLZebra


Really nice post, my strip-ed friend.

Well the more I learned about it the more I found out there is a lot more to it than just some silly horoscope

I had this experience with Hand Analysis (Chirognomy and Chirology). I had a really good friend almost insist that I check it out. I had thought that it must be a load of crap and figured that was what I would ultimately report back to him. That was over 20 years ago and I am still at it.

I liked what you had to say about 'checking out the influences. That seems to be how it works.

One of my teachers is from Hong Kong and is stunningly good at Face Analysis. Have you ever had any experience with that? I have found that the different physiognomies (Hand, Face, Scalp but especially Hand) are an excellent adjunct to knowing how to read body language.

See what you are missing, those of you who dismiss it all so quickly?

reply to post by Griffo


Debunking astrology should be easy. Why don't the scientists use their scientific method. Instead of comparing astrology columns, why can't they learn astrology, try predicting stuff and see for themselves how accurate their predictions are. Also if it doesn't work for some and only works for some, why should the latter care about the others ?
The Bill Nye stuff is pretty old. There are astrological systems which take the precession of equinoxes into account. Thee sign of the ascendant is used for accurate prediction.

Originally posted by darkstar57
astrology is bunk and should not be posted in science and technology. the basis is belief. If you believe in your astrological future, vedic or what ever, you begin to perceive in terms of those predictions and remember when they come true. Just like the Vegas gambler remembers winning big, and forgets the losses.
Ray Hyman, psychologist at the U of O , found a relation between personality and sign. Until he divided his study into two groups... believers and non believers, including those who never heard of astrology. among the non believers, there was NO relation between personality and sign.

Believing in astrology makes it come true and tells everyone that you believe you have no control over your own fate.

Harsh words for something that many would say has proved its validation purely on one fact alone. Astrology has been practised consistently since the time of Sumer and every ancient race has its own zodiac and interpreter of the sky. Its one of the longest and most consistent sciences in the world. It is a science because it measures and records time accurately. Many ancient buildings had their astrological inception chart on their ceilings because the chart tells you when the building was put up, or what its dedicated to.

Its also an art as well. Once you have completed the complicated maths to do the chart, you then need the language with which to read and interpret it.

It is a science that Emporers, Kings and Popes rely on. it has considerable accolade from some of the most brilliant minds we have. There are two main reasons though why it was deliberately removed from the public arena.

The first is its a tool for making predictions. It can be used to predict beneficial timings for things, so picking a advantageous time to your chart would give a good result to you. More serious is that a good astrologer can supposedly predict death which was one of the most important things Kings, Popes and Emporers wanted to know. There's a story about Nero who wanted his astrologer to tell him when he was going to die. The Astrologer, aware of the fate of previous astrologers telling Nero something Nero wanted kept private, replied to him, Oh Lord, you will die a few minutes after I die. Nero very carefully kept him alive.

The second reason is that although religion was steeped in astrology an example is Ezekiels's chariot. The four faces, The Lion, Man, Bull and Eagle are the astrological fixed signs. Unless you know its langauge you don't realise what is being said. Shakespeare is also another example. The Church hated astrology because when you could predict your own future you didn't need a priest or to ask God you had independance. So it was outlawed to make you dependant on the priesthood and thereby pay your tythes etc. It certainly was practiced when Luther left the Catholic church because Pople Leo X published Luther's natal chart which showed why he 'decided to marry' and Luther published Leo's chart where a small 'degree of greed etc' was present (he sold indulgences).

The Western Zodiac forms the base for modern psychology. Carl Jung's used the zodiac interpretations within his work. If you look through Gauquelin's research you will see his findings relating to the planets and especially the sun signs and people's professions. There has been a reluctance with especially the universities to do any research into astrology. One reason could well be that once empirical research validates astrology, it will be brought into the public domain again which those who use it to their advantage today would not wish and religion would be back-footed again. Ray Harman's tests would need to be carried out utilising the whole chart. You can't make an accurate judgement on someone's personality just by knowing their sun sign - the sun on the chart might be afflicted so you expect may well not be what you get.

Originally posted by Timetraveller
reply to post by Griffo

 

Debunking astrology should be easy. Why don't the scientists use their scientific method. Instead of comparing astrology columns, why can't they learn astrology, try predicting stuff and see for themselves how accurate their predictions are. Also if it doesn't work for some and only works for some, why should the latter care about the others ?
The Bill Nye stuff is pretty old. There are astrological systems which take the precession of equinoxes into account. Thee sign of the ascendant is used for accurate prediction.

Because "scientists" are already doing science, and they are not just "scientists" as if they all belong to a team... There are geologists, biologists, astronomers, math-people, etc...
Everyone has the tools to make a serious scientific research about it, given that they can find and outline a repeatable method that provides comprobable data.

And no one is forbiding astrology, nor saying "it's bull#", IT-IS-JUST-NOT-A-SCIENCE.
How is that so hard to understand?

reply to post by drakus


You're not making any sense.

Astrologers are predicting these traits based on birth chart not where they live or what color they are. People who share the same birth chart comes from diferrent backgrounds. If you have evidence that people who share the same birth chart share the same background, then submit it. This would be even more powerful evidence for Astrology because a persons birth chart would determine the neighborhood they live in lol.

You also said being in a relationship a long time before commiting is a random fact. The only fact here is that you don't pay attention. If you watched the video, you would see it's not a random fact.

The astrologer gave people readings he never met. These readings were based on their birth charts. When Shermer switched the charts he was trying to show the readings were general and random, but when he switched the charts the accuracy rate dropped. Saying that she was in relationships for a long time and it took her awhile to commit was based on her birth chart and other people who share similar birth charts who share this trait. THERE WASN'T ANYTHING RANDOM ABOUT THIS.

This is why it didn't match the other lady when they switched the charts.

Here's some more info:

A recent episode of the television program, Unsolved Mysteries, profiled a segment concerning an experiment in astrology. The producers of the show had twenty astrological birth charts from people at random. Included with the twenty astrological charts, the producers put the astrological charts of four serial killers: Jeffrey Dahmer, David Son of Sam Berkowitz, David the Night Stalker Ramirez, and Ed Kemper. These astrological charts were given to Carolyn Reynolds, a well-known astrologer, to see if she can glean any information from them. Without knowing the identity of the people whose charts she was analyzing, Carolyn Reynolds successfully identified the four people as possible serial killers. She was also able to give other specific information about these serial killers that proved correct. She was able to do all this just by analyzing their astrological birth chart.

French Psychologist and Statistician Michel Gauquelin started out as a skeptic:

"It is now quite certain that the signs in the sky which presided over our births have no power whatever to decide our fates, to affect our hereditary characteristics, or to play any part, however humble, in the totality of effects, random or otherwise, which form the fabric of our lives and mould our impulses to action." (The Scientific Basis for Astrology, 1970)

After studying the issue he changed his mind.

"Subsequent results only confirmed and amplified my initial discovery about the physicians. On the whole, it emerged that there was an increasingly solid statistical link between the time of birth of great men and their occupational success. ... Having collected over 20,000 dates of birth of professional celebrities from various European countries and from the United States, I had to draw the unavoidable conclusion that the position of the planets at birth is linked to one's destiny. What a challenge to the rational mind!"[3] (Neo-Astrology, 1991)

en.wikipedia.org...

Again, Astrology is predicting and forecasting future events and similar traits based on data not guessing.

Okay, I give up.
Next time, read TWICE before writing, you are not getting what I'm saying.
(ie: "You also said being in a relationship a long time before commiting is a random fact." when I really said: "some random common fact"..., read that twice..., now you'll surely understand that what I meant was that, that was a common fact like any other, like saying "Communication is important in a relationship",

And, so as to make it clear that I'm not against astrol. here's a proposal that could help you advance in your efforts:
Take some 100-150 people (and their birth info) and give that data to several astrologers (astrologists?) along with a form detailing specific aspects or traits that could be easily profiled, give a similar form to each subject. (Of course a double-blind protocol must rule this process.) Now make 2 or 3 different charts for each subject.
You now possess several possible ways to cross reference this data to see if any relevant "mathematical anomaly" beyond pure chance arise.
Now, while I don't believe that's enough to be accepted in the "American Scientific Journal", it'll surely be enough to spark interest among those science-abled with an open enough mind.
And it's way more believable than just saying it so without giving any relevant HARD DATA. (which is what science craves)

reply to post by Matrix Rising


Principle of astrology proven to be scientific: planetary position imprints biological clocks of mammals

interesting how Michel Gauquelin was ridiculed and hounded by the scientific establishment of his day for similar stuff.

www.islandastrology.net...

Some Scientific Evidence for Astrology Just in case you were thinking that astrology is merely a primitive superstition, a projection upon the dome of the heavens of the ancients' need for order, consider this: Back in the Fifties, U.S.A. biologist Frank A. Brown established that certain physical processes in beans, potatoes, rats, flies, and oysters are clearly connected to celestial rhythms, primarily those of the sun and moon. Reputable scientists have associated mood shifts in mental patients, rates of hemorrhage, menstruation and rates of precipitation of chemicals with monthly and yearly celestial cycles. There is also overwhelming evidence relating sun spot cycles to biological, behavioural and historical cycles. As well, irrefutable evidence connects certain human traits with planetary positions. French statistician Michel Gauquelin working in the sixties, established hard statistical evidence that the planets Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, and the Moon correspond to particular personality traits just as the ancients had claimed; Mars with athletes, Saturn with scientists, Jupiter with actors and politicians, and the Moon with writers. Gauquelin, selecting those persons at the very top of their profession as best embodying the traits associated with that particular field, found that a statistically significant number had the 'appropriate' planet rising in the Eastern sky or culminating around the zenith position. These planetary locations happen to be the traditionally significant angles of the astrological birth chart. Gauquelin's work has been replicated many times and is not in dispute, though many scientists like to ignore it or downplay its significance.

Originally posted by DerepentLEstranger
reply to post by Matrix Rising

 

Principle of astrology proven to be scientific: planetary position imprints biological clocks of mammals

interesting how Michel Gauquelin was ridiculed and hounded by the scientific establishment of his day for similar stuff.

www.islandastrology.net...

Some Scientific Evidence for Astrology Just in case you were thinking that astrology is merely a primitive superstition, a projection upon the dome of the heavens of the ancients' need for order, consider this: Back in the Fifties, U.S.A. biologist Frank A. Brown established that certain physical processes in beans, potatoes, rats, flies, and oysters are clearly connected to celestial rhythms, primarily those of the sun and moon. Reputable scientists have associated mood shifts in mental patients, rates of hemorrhage, menstruation and rates of precipitation of chemicals with monthly and yearly celestial cycles. There is also overwhelming evidence relating sun spot cycles to biological, behavioural and historical cycles. As well, irrefutable evidence connects certain human traits with planetary positions. French statistician Michel Gauquelin working in the sixties, established hard statistical evidence that the planets Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, and the Moon correspond to particular personality traits just as the ancients had claimed; Mars with athletes, Saturn with scientists, Jupiter with actors and politicians, and the Moon with writers. Gauquelin, selecting those persons at the very top of their profession as best embodying the traits associated with that particular field, found that a statistically significant number had the 'appropriate' planet rising in the Eastern sky or culminating around the zenith position. These planetary locations happen to be the traditionally significant angles of the astrological birth chart. Gauquelin's work has been replicated many times and is not in dispute, though many scientists like to ignore it or downplay its significance.

SEE? This is what I'm talking about.
I should read the paper to speak further though.
And I should add that the logical scientific step next is to propose several models that explain the process by which this could happen and to develop ways to test these models, not to claim that the debate is over...

If there is any scientific legitimacy to astrology it lies in frequencies and waves. Whether aetheric, radio, magnetic, gravitational, light, electromagnetic, string, or some otherwise unknown wave. The stars do sing.

Originally posted by Matrix Rising


Yes it does provide a causual chain, the alignment of the planets is no different than looking at a past stock chart of Apple.

Examining peoples past behaviour patterns to make predictions about future possible behaviour, is not the same as looking at planetary alignment and it`s alleged affects on `some` of the population.

I did write earlier but as I think it was missed. Astrology dates back right throughout history to the firs,t so far, known civilisation of Sumer, whom because of the length of time in measuring the precession of the equinoxes (26000) acquired their knowledge from an unknown source.

Anything that was quack, idiotic or fanciful would never have lasted throughout time or been employed by so many Kings, Emporers, Popes etc. The Zodiac or the observance of the planets and fixed stars is a tool, which has been employed by all civilisations around the world.

Anyone who wants scientific knowledge about astrology and how it works would probably enjoy Professor Seymour's excellent book The Scientific Basis of Astrology. He was Principal Lecturer in Astronomy at the University of Plymouth and before that Senior Planetarium Lecturer at the Old Royal Observatory in Greenwich. You won't get better credentials to discuss and research astrology.

Professor Seymour says "I am proposing that the magnetic fluctuations of the geomagnetic field connected with the Sun, Moon, and planets have, over the long time-scales of biological evolution, provided a magnetic format or schedule in time into which other environmental changes were stored using a magnetic coding system. " Hence people born at certain times of the year have certain dispositions (loosely put).

Almost all esoteric and occult "sciences" are sophisticated nonsense.

reply to post by 547000


What occult sciences have you researched to come to this conclusion. Do you not wonder why if these ancient beliefs and practices were worthless, they are not forgotten ?

It's just BS like pop-psychology in the P and MP forums. It's popular because people like to believe they can predict the future or have special powers.

reply to post by 547000


This is the problem. Astrology has nothing to do with "special powers." That's just nonsense. Anyone can learn how to read charts just like anyone can learn how to be a Meteorologist or learn how to read stock charts. It has nothing to do with "special powers" or the "supernatural."

I included "predict the future" too.

Originally posted by Frater210
reply to post by LOLZebra

 

Really nice post, my strip-ed friend.

Well the more I learned about it the more I found out there is a lot more to it than just some silly horoscope

I had this experience with Hand Analysis (Chirognomy and Chirology). I had a really good friend almost insist that I check it out. I had thought that it must be a load of crap and figured that was what I would ultimately report back to him. That was over 20 years ago and I am still at it.

I liked what you had to say about 'checking out the influences. That seems to be how it works.

One of my teachers is from Hong Kong and is stunningly good at Face Analysis. Have you ever had any experience with that? I have found that the different physiognomies (Hand, Face, Scalp but especially Hand) are an excellent adjunct to knowing how to read body language.

See what you are missing, those of you who dismiss it all so quickly?

edit on 5-7-2011 by Frater210 because: double Ia!

What? I have never heard of anything of the sort... im rather terrible at body language, sometimes I can't even tell a person is drunk unless they are falling over.

Guess I live in my own world in my head.

Oh and to add to the discussion a bit...

An interesting bit of history reveals that Mr. J.P. Morgan, yes, THE Mr. Morgan, mega-financial tycoon, was quoted as saying, "Millionaires don't use Astrology, billionaires do!" It is a documented fact that Mr. Morgan purchased a ticket for the Titanic's maiden voyage a few weeks prior to her ill-fated departure, as so many of his elitist associates had done. However, J.P. Morgan suddenly changed his itinerary for the South of France. His close friends claim that Mr. Morgan had consulted with his astrologer just prior to changing his travel plans.

I always liked that quote by JP Morgan
Don't know if the whole titanic bit is true though just read that today.