The Scientific Case for Astrology

I think Astrology should be taken seriously and it's a very powerful tool. I'm partial to Vedic Astrology and I think it's more effective than Western astrology but that's a different debate.

The question is, does Astrology work and can it predict the future? The answer is yes.

We predict and forecast the future all the time. We do it with weather or in the stock market. People get very rich predicting the future price of oil or the future price of a stock based on events or past charts.

With weather they have gotten better with predicting the highs and lows of the day or the chance of rain. If you play the stock market and your right 65-70% of the time and you minimize your losses and maximize your gains, you will make good money over time.

This is Astrology. All you're doing is predicting the future based on past alignments of the planets. So if the planets aligned in a certain way and violence broke out in Asia 5-10 days after that alignment a couple of times in the past, then an Astrologer can predict that violence will break out in Asia in 5-10 days.

The problem occurs because the skeptic will give Astrology the 100% standard that's just silly. If the Astrologer isn't correct 100% of the time, then they're fake. The Astrologer isn't just guessing. They're predicting and forecasting the future based on past events. It's no different than looking at astock s past performence and saying the last 3 times the stock's chart looked like this the stock went up over 30%. This doesn't mean it's 100 percent certain the stock will go up.

So if you have 20 people that's born around the same time and there was the same alignment of planets and a high percentage of the group asre successful and own their own business or they're in management. Some of them are neat freaks and very ordered. If a person comes to the Astrologer and has the same or similar chart as the 20 people in the group, you can say the reason you're not happy with your current job is because you want to be in control. You probably think about running your own business or you think you can do a better job than your current manager. You might be a neat freak or you just like things to be in order. My suggestion would be to look into starting your own business on the side or seeing if there's a management program at your current job because you will probably be successful in these areas.

Again, the Astrologer will not be 100% correct but they're just making a future prediction based on data from past events. Here's a video of Skeptic Michael Shermer trying to debunk an Astrologer and it didn't work. The Astrologer turned out to have an accuracy rate of 77%.

www.youtube.com...

astrology is bunk and should not be posted in science and technology. the basis is belief. If you believe in your astrological future, vedic or what ever, you begin to perceive in terms of those predictions and remember when they come true. Just like the Vegas gambler remembers winning big, and forgets the losses.
Ray Hyman, psychologist at the U of O , found a relation between personality and sign. Until he divided his study into two groups... believers and non believers, including those who never heard of astrology. among the non believers, there was NO relation between personality and sign.

Believing in astrology makes it come true and tells everyone that you believe you have no control over your own fate.

To All,

astrology is bunk and should not be posted in science and technology. the basis is belief.

I vote it stays. The basis of Astrology is Mathematics, not belief. Many of these so called 'occult sciences' are due for an overhaul.

I believe that if we can begin to appreciate things like Astrology and Chirology in the light of all of the things that we have learned about ourselves and the world (especially the brain) in just the last ten years will be able to recover the valuable information that they hold.

I do not think what is important is that we reinforce old fashioned beliefs about the occult and systems of divination but that we re-examine them in the light of new discoveries in all sciences so as to retain as much of their value as possible. This is the goal of all sciences and why General Systems Theory rules them all; the retention of valuable information.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Carry on, OP, with your fine post.

Astrology is just pseudo-science. The most convincing argument for this is the fact that you can pick up two newspapers or magazines and flip to the horoscope section. They will both be different. If astrology was real then one would expect them to be the same, or somewhat similar.

Carl Sagan uses the twin analogy in this video which I think explains it very well



If that's not enough for you, then this Bill Nye video will provide some further detail for you

Ye all persist in your misunderstanding.

Astrology is only vague on the surface. That is because your Sun sign has virtually nothing to do with your character. It covers the whole damn month. It is the rising sign that yields all of the useful information.

The same Joke applies in Chinese Astrology where the animals represent only the Branch and not the Stem which reveals all of the useful information.

It is like a blind to keep people who have knee jerk reactions to Astrology away from learning anything about it. As far as I can tell.

There is just as much anecdotal proof that it is efficacious than that it (Astrology) is not.

I think we're always taught it is bunk, but I have read studies about drivers and birth signs. They do line up a certain way - IE I don't recall exactly but I know that Gemini is a safer driver than some other drivers.

There's so much data out there, but no one will touch it because they teach us in schools that it is bunk. Half the time, they teach it in the churches too - or they say it is bad or evil.

Science is the search for truth, but sometimes science has 'common knowledge' getting in the way of the search. WHY would something last thousands and thousands of years if it was complete bunk?

While I respect the "original" Astrology as a symbolic representation of the forces of the universe, to be considered science it would have to follow the Scientific Method which requires evidence, physical and theoretical argumentation and, above all, factual predictive power.
If astrology can establish a method, and can REPEATEDLY make provable predictions explaining most factors, without the need of metaphysical meanings (IE: Mars represents war and conflict, because is red and the "ancients" viewed it as a God of War, that does not mean ANYTHING science-wise) only THEN can be seen as a scientific school.

But I don't see the need for that. It is what it is...

It doesn't matter if you believe it or not because it's not about belief. Just like it doesn't matter if you believe it will be 80 degrees on Thursday with a 40% chance of rain. It's just predicting the future based on past data.

If you look at 3 people's birth chart that have similar alignment and 2 of them own successful businesses and the other one is a manager at a business, if someone comes in that has a similar birth chart, you can predict how this person might behave and the best path for him/her to try to follow.

Again, this isn't guessing, it's based on data and it's not 100% accurate. Sadly, when you're dealing in these areas belief comes into play. So, if Astrology isn't 100% accurate then it's false. This is because you're treating it as something supernatural instead of something predictive like past stock charts.

Hmm. The problem is, astrology DOES NOT PROVIDE A CAUSAL CHAIN TO EXPLAIN IT'S CLAIMS.
The fact that 3 or 5 or 150 people born the same day are good with bussiness DOES NOT logically imply that the relevant factor is the day of birth. There's no proven causal relationship.

That's whty astrology isn't considered a science, because it's based on ennumerative induction, rather than DEDUCTION. (ie: I've seen 5 birds, all of them black, therefore, all birds are black. I know it's a stupid example, but hey...)
At least, that's how I understand it.


PD: don't take my comments as an attack on astrology, because I really respect it as any other human discipline, I just think objectively that it doesn't FIT in the description of a Modern Science
I actually enjoy the different approaches of astrology around the world and always ask for a "reading" when I bump into one of you astrological people (And most chart's I had done were really cool, so...)

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
It doesn't matter if you believe it or not because it's not about belief. Just like it doesn't matter if you believe it will be 80 degrees on Thursday with a 40% chance of rain. It's just predicting the future based on past data.

If you look at 3 people's birth chart that have similar alignment and 2 of them own successful businesses and the other one is a manager at a business, if someone comes in that has a similar birth chart, you can predict how this person might behave and the best path for him/her to try to follow.

Again, this isn't guessing, it's based on data and it's not 100% accurate. Sadly, when you're dealing in these areas belief comes into play. So, if Astrology isn't 100% accurate then it's false. This is because you're treating it as something supernatural instead of something predictive like past stock charts.

Why don't you test astrology by using it to predict 100 non subjective outcomes. How about I'll flip a coin 100 times, and you use astrology to predict the outcome? We'll compare astrology's results to the 50% accuracy expected from guessing. If this isn't the sort of thing astrology can be used to predict, please suggest another test where the outcomes can be objectively measured.

reply to post by drakus


Yes it does provide a causual chain, the alignment of the planets is no different than looking at a past stock chart of Apple. This is all you need because science still can't tell us the causual chain of Gravity. Yet I don't see you questioning Gravity.Is Gravity a fundemental force or an emergent property? We don't know the causual chain that causes Gravity to curve spacetime or why it's weaker than electromagnetism or the strong nuclear force but we don't throw Gravity out the window because we don't know the "causual chain."

Likewise, with Astrology we know that people that share similar birth charts share similar traits and this gives you predictive power like playing the futures market or predicting a snowstorm. It's not 100% certain but neither is Forensic Hypnosis but Police still use it as a tool. We don't fully know the causual link between the two events but that doesn't mean our lack of knowledge means there isn't one.

Now, I'm not comparing Gravity to Astrology. There two different things but I know this is what some will try to say. The fact is, I just choose to look at both Gravity and Astrology through the eyes of science vs calling things science that agree with my belief system and then yelling pseudoscience to avoid any critical thinking about the issue that may not agree with a pre-existing belief system..

I'm not saying Astrology is not a science because it doesn't fit with my freaking beliefs!!!!
Have you read my post?
WHAT is the causal relationship between the position of an arbitrary celestial body and the psych. caractheristics of a person?
WHICH physical proceses are involved that serve as a medium for such influence?
WHAT scientific model is proposed to explain a fact that HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN (relation between human charact. and planets)?
WHAT peer-reviewed paper can you present that explains SCIENTIFICALLY how this claimed causal relationship functions?
WHAT systemic, REPEATABLE predictions have been made and proven?
WHAT body of evidence hints at us that we should even look for a causal relationship, TODAY?

It's as simple as that.
I don't get why you imply that not being a science is something wrong...
Music is not a science, and we can't live without it... As sports aren't too...

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
reply to post by drakus

 

Yet I don't see you questioning Gravity.Is Gravity a fundemental force or an emergent property? We don't know the causual chain that causes Gravity to curve spacetime or why it's weaker than electromagnetism or the strong nuclear force but we don't throw Gravity out the window because we don't know the "causual chain."

1) Scientist question our fundamental laws EVERY DAY, that's what they do, and that's how scientific knowledge is obtained and how we arrived here.
2) I don't think that the body of evidence for the existence of gravity can be compared to the body of evidence for the validity of Astrology as a modern science.

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
reply to post by drakus

 

... with Astrology we know that people that share similar birth charts share similar traits and this gives you predictive power ....

No, we don't know that! Don't put it as a FACT because IT IS NOT!
Again, THAT IS EXACTLY WHY ASTROLOGY IS NOT VIEWED AS A SCIENCE.
IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SOME PERSONAL VENDETTA AGAINST MYSTICISM............................................

There is no scientific basis for astrology. Astrology is moronic garbage. This whole thread needs to be in one of the Occult sections.

Basically, I laid out the case and so far it hasn't been disputed. Astrology isn't guessing. It's making a prediction based on data which isn't any difference from a weather forecast or playing the futures market.

When people can't refute something they don't understand they want to label it pseudoscince.

Again, if an Astrologer tells someone , you like martial arts, you probably work around money and you have probably married several times, it's not guessing. It's because people with similar birth charts share the same traits.

Did you even watch the video? It was designed by the skeptic Michael Shermer to show that Astrology isn't real. Yet the Astrologer had a 77% success rate and even when Shermer tried to switched the last two readings, it didn't work. The success rat dropped between 20-25%.

If you going to say this isn't real, you need to provide an alternative explanation for these things.

reply to post by drakus


Again, you need to read what I'm saying.

There's a causual link between people with similar birth charts and the alignment of the planets.

Astrologers are not guessing when they say you usually take a long time to commit to a relationship like in the video. It's because a percentage of people who share similar birth charts share the same trait. This is why the women then said, she dated her current husband for 25 years before they got married.

These things are based on the birth chart and the alignment of planets. If you have an alternate hypothesis why people with similar birth charts share similar traits then present it.

I think there is probably a scientific basis for Astrology, but you probably can't get there by looking at statistical grouping, anymore than you can make a case for the human mind by looking at an EEG or biology.

There is a certain meta-physical duality associated with Astrology -- there is the reality of the planets keeping their orbits (and all the nuances of a calendar and clock) and there is also the meta-reality of time existing only in the the human mind.

However, if there was a starting point for studying Astrology, it might be here:

en.wikipedia.org...

It might also be here:

en.wikipedia.org...

Sorry, I can't really comment or help further.

I saw this thread from my phone earlier today and wanted to add my thoughts to it now that I am back home...

This quote reminded me of why I got into astrology...

Originally posted by Griffo
Astrology is just pseudo-science. The most convincing argument for this is the fact that you can pick up two newspapers or magazines and flip to the horoscope section. They will both be different. If astrology was real then one would expect them to be the same, or somewhat similar.

I completely agree that newspaper/magazine horoscopes are a bunch of nonsense. And when you dive into the world of astrology... they are a bunch of nonsense to someone who knows a bit more about the subject than just someones sun sign.

Kinda like saying all Ford cars are gas guzzlers. All leo's are outgoing and want to be the center of attention.

This is exactly why I got into this topic to see just how much BS the horoscopes are. Well the more I learned about it the more I found out there is a lot more to it than just some silly horoscope (and that's all they are, silly!).

Some of the people I've come across who deal with astrology who are really good at it, are just amazing. Unbelievable. You give them your chart, they will tell you about your life down to some details. I was shocked.

I also dabbled with astro & currency trading with someone else and we had some pretty scary accuracies but then periods where it would not match up. Still had to fine-tune the system and take in all the different variables that are going on around the world. Too much stuff to put all together in a winter vacation.

Astrology is not going to be the end-all, decision making, jump to conclusion practice most people believe it to be. It's more of a tool to use so you can have a heads up on the type of "influences" that are affecting us/things/the planet overall, so you can plan accordingly.

Double post.. trigger fingers..