Time Magazine : 1st, Hitler "Man of the Year", 2nd, One Document, Under Siege...

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

It sure sounds like we're stating similar thoughts and or ideals.

Yes, I think it is just semantics.

In my opinion, laws restrict. Therefore the Constitution restricts the government and benefits the people. That is why I say it is a law "by the people" "for the government." Contrast that with most other laws written by the government to restrict the people.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

 

Actually, I see that as sad, only 26 times in 300 years.

That shows an ignorance among those men in the modern time.

It means they are not only out of touch with society they are out of touch with our desires.

Why? Are you proposing changes to the Constitution?

It can be changed.

For one people who bypass going to jail due to holding political offices.

As well as prosecuting those who blackmail them to gain funding.

And taking away politicians rights to vote their own pay raises.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
The reason I think it is brilliant, is that it is still so effective, with so little change. It has been extremely successful, and we have only gotten ourselves into trouble as a country in those instances where we have ignored the Constitution, not where we have followed it.

I can concur to a small extent that it being effective due to it's strength.

However, I cannot agree when and where it has been abused, or ignored.

There needs to be written into the Constitution a way for us to throw our politicians out of office.

I am not speaking of voting, I am however speaking of an immediate need, as in within minutes.

There have been quite a few major boneheaded decisions which should have lost them power.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
What additional amendments can you propose that would be as elegant and timeless as the original document + Bill of Rights?

I'll have to think about that more in depth.

Something along the lines of the above comments though.

As well as something which does not allow illegality within Government to go unpunished.

Because it so often does do just that.

Not the absorption of an entity when it is caught in the wrong.

reply to post by yeahright


Thank you for the link and I'll do some research of my own.

I appreciate the research and as well the link, the thoughts, and the discussion.

However, I have my own means of vetting information, and one link will not cut it for me.

Nothing against you, yeahright, but I triple check information that I post.

There is the distinct possibility that I got that one wrong because of a lack of due diligence.

I would say that to anyone if I were wrong just as much as I would defend myself if right.

And yes, people do parrot information, ignorantly, just as people lie freely on here and elsewhere.

My biggest problem is not seeing others parrot information it is only complaining, whining, and bitching.

Without any sort of action, legal and non-violent, of course.

Rhetoric without action behind it is but a hollow gesture.

In other words apathy is far worse then incorrect information as I see it.

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas


As time goes by, we seem to forget that no matter who is in office we still have laws that were left over from the previous president that do nothing but hinder us from living life to the fullest. Freedom seems to be a thing of the past unless we are will to make necessary changes that can alter the path that we are on now. I hope we can bring back the ways of the old and have people represent the country, not the government itself.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

 

It sure sounds like we're stating similar thoughts and or ideals.

Yes, I think it is just semantics.

In my opinion, laws restrict. Therefore the Constitution restricts the government and benefits the people. That is why I say it is a law "by the people" "for the government." Contrast that with most other laws written by the government to restrict the people.

It's going to be a case of semantics and or difference of expression then.

The way you state it here within this post sounds wrong to me.

I understand what you mean but to see it written it appears wrong.

Which does not mean it is wrong, it is just the way it is expressed, so we're okay.

It possibly appears to be wrong to me just because of the abuses of power by those in office.

Those people who falsely claim to defend the Constitution and people while abusing both.

It tends to make me see only the abusive side of Government when I know it should be neutral.

Originally posted by Stop-loss!
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

 

As time goes by, we seem to forget that no matter who is in office we still have laws that were left over from the previous president that do nothing but hinder us from living life to the fullest. Freedom seems to be a thing of the past unless we are will to make necessary changes that can alter the path that we are on now. I hope we can bring back the ways of the old and have people represent the country, not the government itself.

I can agree with that.

Take N.A.F.T.A. for instance which only screws American citizens.

While assisting those corporations in tax breaks to screw the rest of us.

And as well there is the Patriot Act which abuses power wholeheartedly.

I wish we did have a Government that fully represented us not the lobbyists and special interest groups.

Originally posted by yeahright

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
In other words apathy is far worse then incorrect information as I see it.

Well, there's a potentially interesting discussion, maybe for the Philosophy & Metaphysics forum. At first thought, I think I'd strenuously disagree. But I'll save that for another time.

Please, if you can find anything about the Bush quote that validly refutes my refutation

I'd be interested to see it.

Apathy is a lack of action at all and a loss of freedom through slothfulness.

Incorrect information can be corrected.

Through action itself.

And bring it on here or elsewhere as long as it touches upon the topic at hand.

If I can refute your refuting me I guarantee I'll bring it.

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas


The opportinity I refer to is reclamation. We can do nothing to reclaim our country from the parasites if we can't first reclaim ourselves from their comfortable enslavement.

Everything just goes a piece at a time, and nobody reacts. It is going to take a real loss to move the masses to a point of reaction. If the foundation breaks, the house will crumble, and the tennants will have no choice but to take action.

Lo, the conversation turns to the momentous!

I often wonder about the swing of opinion I see when it comes to the idea of a constitution.

In one regard many rightly identify the symptoms of the national malady. Yes, it's a document crafted long ago. And yes, those who are the stewards of constitutional principles are completely disconnected from its principles with the exception of that which serves political expedience. It's true, amendments have made their way through the political machinery without the primary mandate of the people to support them. It is also true that the executors of authority project an air of annoyance at those who wish to revisit the core principles of the Constitution from the perspective of what authority figures have wrought of the ideals.

But in all this, it is disingenuous to pretend that these flaws were not foreseen, or to contend that we were not forewarned.

The people of our nation, whether deserving or not, have been promised something. That something is founded upon the predictability and certainty that the Constitution of this republic stands without contest by ideologues and reactionaries who seek 'maneuvering room' for objectives that have no bearing on the public will.

That is, after all, the key component of governance. That the mandate of the people rules over all; not the machinations of logicians in the judiciary, nor the theatrics of pubic servants, nor the interests of supposed allies who the people neither know, nor asked to support.

Without a central collection of genuinely accepted ideals with which to guide the government, we are no better than employees of a corporation, whose objective need not be known to us, as our place would be to serve. Removing the 'contract' which I believe the Constitution represents (and our public servants do actually "swear" to serve it) what have we to ensure for our posterity, that abuse will not become their ruler? Good will? A handsome or pretty face, witty retorts? How about appeals to regional interests, with the politician changing their tune every time the audience changes? How about support from respected news providers who can publish anything they like, since they "own" the news?

Politics is about theatrics, popularity, and showmanship.

The constitution renders the use of such means to achieve public control into an actionable crime. Yet, we, as a people have endured such lies and theater for well over over a century.

The idea was to protect Americans from the advent of an organized effort to seize control of governance - rendering the people "subject" to the government; which was precisely the potential anathema the founders wanted to eradicate permanently.

America's laws were meant to limit the infliction of governance on the people. The government belongs only where the people decide it should go, and no further than that - ever.

For all of this to work we have a concrete form of document that is available to all. The metric of acceptance is not in the hands of legislators or the judiciary... it is entirely up to the people as a whole. We are not free because we deserve freedom, we are not free because the constitution says so, we are not free because of ANY reason that can be contrived into a statute or doctrine.

We are free. From that everything else springs forth. The state of the freedom of the human citizen is not 'malleable' - it's not "up to someone to judge" - freedom is the natural preeminent state of the American citizen. It is because of this that the friction we see today exists. Only the truly oblivious refuse to see the encroachment of 'governance' over the citizens. Only those who stand to gain form the control models imposed upon us are the fierce proponents of ever-more-complicated rules and regulations to channel and characterize human interaction.

Insofar as the content of the Constitution, I applaud it as one of the more thoughtfully crafted handiworks of men who saw the peril of natural true freedom under the notion that some are 'special' 'more noble' and 'chosen to rule.'

The only problem with the Constitution is that it is an unfinished document. It has always been up to us to maintain it. But instead we allowed the guild of lawyers (the state's legislated legal monopoly) to remove it from the comprehension of the common man by making it a requirement to be "of them" to address it in any meaningful way. Just as we allowed other such monopolies of political convenience to rule our lives.

Unlike many, I do not blame the citizens for this. I blame the huxters and conmen who carefully conspired to render the servant - the master. I blame those who use vainglory, blackmail, and trickery to exercise undeserved control over affairs they have no right to adjudicate... even though these people invariably declare their entitlement to do so.

America did not know that mass media could and would be converted into an opiate to be rivaled only by religion. But the remedy to such addictions is not ours to effect. It lies in those who have "sworn" to serve and defend the Constitution. What are they interested in? War, profit, empire: - The very things the founding fathers KNEW would surface, and warned us about.

To make such a pronouncement in front of the media today is to beg to be called a clown. How's that for irony?

Originally posted by Bobaganoosh
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

 

The opportinity I refer to is reclamation.

Really?

I do not see that happening due to apathy, a lack of the correct action, and people's inability to lead.

Not only can people not lead others, they rarely know how to lead themselves, they refuse to do so.

And the correct action is a non-violent and legal action because anything else will be stopped.

Originally posted by Bobaganoosh
We can do nothing to reclaim our country from the parasites if we can't first reclaim ourselves from their comfortable enslavement.

If only this would happen.

Unfortunately, I do not see it happening, American citizens are far too lazy for that.

I see apathy everywhere I look with what seems quicksand of ignorance.

Originally posted by Bobaganoosh
Everything just goes a piece at a time, and nobody reacts. It is going to take a real loss to move the masses to a point of reaction. If the foundation breaks, the house will crumble, and the tennants will have no choice but to take action.

It will take a massive action of some kind to get them motivated.

Unfortunately, the last time that happened, Pearl Harbor was the action.

Even though that was a lie since F.D.R. knew about it in advance.

reply to post by Bobaganoosh

The opportinity I refer to is reclamation. We can do nothing to reclaim our country from the parasites if we can't first reclaim ourselves from their comfortable enslavement.

That is a signature line! What a great quote.

I have asked many people today the question that refers to the Aesops fable. Would you rather starve free or be a fat slave. Suprisingly the answer is never quick, nor decisive, and often times I find people struggling to defend the answer that they would prefer to be a fat slave.

The population has grown used to its chains, even dependent upon them. In fact, the population is uncomfortable without the confines of its government, and it begs for direction, restrictions, limitations, and convenient penalties.

Originally posted by IAMIAM
The shredding of the Constitution will be a good thing my friend. When men and women rely on a piece of paper created by man to protect rights given them at birth by divine providence, they have already been enslaved by the enforcers of the paper. Freedom isn't something you put into print for all to see, it is self evident. Any man or woman who asks for their freedom from government, who looks to a piece of paper for what their freedoms are, or who willfully relinquishes their freedom for the sake of safety or prosperity wears the chains of slavery but are too blinded to see them.

Burn the Constitution, throw down your leaders, and walk this world free once more, an individual endowed by your creator needing the consent of no man to be free. It is far better to live or die free as intended than to submit your free will to the orchestrations of others.

The time for man to rule man is over. Watch closely the awesome destruction caused by the masters of this world as they struggle to maintain their power over the masses. What lies ahead in the next few months will be carnage on a scale never before seen. Take it as a lesson that no one is capable of such awesome power as ruling over others either by conquest or consent. Watch as the dog eat dog world we have created of iniquity and injustice comes unraveled. No Constitution can prevent it nor will it protect those who wish not to join the fray.

Blood and destruction shall be so in use
And dreadful objects so familiar
That mothers shall but smile when they behold
Their infants quarter'd with the hands of war;
All pity choked with custom of fell deeds:
And Caesar's spirit, ranging for revenge,
With Ate by his side come hot from hell,
Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice
Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war;
That this foul deed shall smell above the earth
With carrion men, groaning for burial.

William Shakespeare - Julius Caesar

"It's just a goddamn piece of paper!" - George Bush

Yes Sir Bush, it is a goddamn piece of paper. Freedom however, is not.

With Love,

Your Brother

That piece of paper is needed in order to remind the elected men and women that govern what their role is, and what the limits of their authority are. People can be corrupt and power hungry, as you well know, so the Constitution is important because it puts in writing what should be known by all people. "We hold these truths to be self evident" means exactly what you are saying, but they wrote the Constitution because not everyone agrees with them or you, and they don't see natural rights as truth or as being self evident.

i have one thing that peaves me for those who say that bush said the constitution is just a "blank" piece of paper

show the video or audio no links to left wing biased news source i want proof real unadultered proof.

not hearsay and conjecture people are free to have their problems with bush but manufacturing of "evidence" i do not agree with.

and no i am not defending bush but when people report "opinion" as fact i want clarification.

reply to post by Maxmars


Maxmars, I have to say your post is almost the largest post or commentary I've seen in almost my entire time on ATS, that I agree with more than 90% of all of it. I usually find about 50% to 75% of agreement with most people on ATS, hence why I only read about 1% of other posters threads. I do disagree with one particular comment, where we are not to blame, yes the hucksters and con-men are to blame, but we are just as much to blame for allowing our fellow citizens to be conned. Our society is so rampant with ignorance, apathy, and political stupidity, both of the politicians as well as the citizens who know nothing of politics.

Far too many people know nothing of the very things that control their lives when they are not watching.

Ask 100 people what an Executive Order is without it being the hot topic of the week?

I'm not talking 100 ATS'ers but average people out in the world and they will not know those two words.

Ask 100 people what a Presidential Finding is without it being the hot topic of the week?

I'm not talking 100 ATS'ers but average people out in the world and they will not know those two words.

Ask 100 people what a oup d'état is without it being the hot topic of the week?

I'm not talking 100 ATS'ers but average people out in the world and they will not know those two words.

I think you get my meaning without my going into word after word in regards to politics and governance.

In Ancient Roman times it was the people demanding bread and circuses from Caesar.

Two more words which are rarely known as well there but it is a standard of society today.

Quote from : Wikipedia : Bread and Circuses

"Bread and Circuses" (or bread and games) (from Latin: panem et circenses) is a metaphor for a superficial means of appeasement.

In the case of politics, the phrase is used to describe the creation of public approval, not through exemplary or excellent public service or public policy, but through the mere satisfaction of the immediate, shallow requirements of a populace.

The phrase also implies the erosion or ignorance of civic duty amongst the concerns of the common man (l'homme moyen sensuel).

In modern usage, the phrase has become an adjective to describe a populace that no longer values civic virtues and the public life.

To many across the political spectrum, left and right, it connotes the triviality and frivolity that characterized the Roman Empire prior to its decline.

I realize you and a few others may not need that definition there so excuse its use.

But far too many citizens only concentrate on the superficial means of appeasement.

Like the Superbowl, the World Series, or World Cup Soccer.

Or perhaps American Idol, Big Brother, and Survivor.

And Jenny Jones, Oprah Winfrey, and trailer-trash television.

They want and demand something for nothing and expect others to provide protection.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Bobaganoosh

 

The opportinity I refer to is reclamation. We can do nothing to reclaim our country from the parasites if we can't first reclaim ourselves from their comfortable enslavement.

That is a signature line! What a great quote.

I have asked many people today the question that refers to the Aesops fable. Would you rather starve free or be a fat slave. Suprisingly the answer is never quick, nor decisive, and often times I find people struggling to defend the answer that they would prefer to be a fat slave.

The population has grown used to its chains, even dependent upon them. In fact, the population is uncomfortable without the confines of its government, and it begs for direction, restrictions, limitations, and convenient penalties.

I would rather starve free then be a fat slave any and every day of the week.

I have made many decisions which have lead me to that through honor.

It is an easy decision with dire consequences and I would make the same decision over and over.

Then again most people who came from nothing and have never been rich would do so.

At least I know I would based on being dirt poor and not knowing wealth.

I would die poor, destitute, and free, if only to remain free and honor-bound.

Originally posted by OptimusSubprime
That piece of paper is needed in order to remind the elected men and women that govern what their role is, and what the limits of their authority are. People can be corrupt and power hungry, as you well know, so the Constitution is important because it puts in writing what should be known by all people. "We hold these truths to be self evident" means exactly what you are saying, but they wrote the Constitution because not everyone agrees with them or you, and they don't see natural rights as truth or as being self evident.

Exactly my point earlier.

Far too many men and women would abuse any sort of power.

If we do not have laws there is no protection from their sociopathic or psychopathic behaviors.

Those who are born into wealth and believe their elite families deserve more power and more wealth.

They are far too close, in mindset, of an A.K.C. inbred dog, in that their synapses do not fire right.

Originally posted by neo96
i have one thing that peaves me for those who say that bush said the constitution is just a "blank" piece of paper

show the video or audio no links to left wing biased news source i want proof real unadultered proof.

not hearsay and conjecture people are free to have their problems with bush but manufacturing of "evidence" i do not agree with.

and no i am not defending bush but when people report "opinion" as fact i want clarification.

Even Factcheck.org... a George Sorros backed organization says that it is very unlikely that it happened

Link

Originally posted by neo96
i have one thing that peaves me for those who say that bush said the constitution is just a "blank" piece of paper

show the video or audio no links to left wing biased news source i want proof real unadultered proof.

not hearsay and conjecture people are free to have their problems with bush but manufacturing of "evidence" i do not agree with.

and no i am not defending bush but when people report "opinion" as fact i want clarification.

Whether he said it or not, and I'm still researching it, he acted like it through ignorance in office.

His ignorance of doing the wrong thing to screw America is inexcusable.

Nothing during his Administration assisted America in any way and we are largely riding in its wake now.

Bush started the current economic meltdown and Obama is only cleaning up after him.

Through robbing every penny from the Treasury.