Neanderthals and Denisovans our Genetic cousins

reply to post by SLAYER69


I did want to ask. Are you sure we bred them out? Reason I ask is something I stated a bit back. Neanderthals did not show any improvement to intelligence over Homo Erectus. Now they had larger brains, but that's does not necessitate them as smarter. Most certainly, as you said, they were not apish brutes. Hell, even apes, when socially civil to, are not brutes.

What we so see is a very linear development. Neanderthal tools before contact with humans were essentially the same primitive tools the earliest hominid groups used. But mankind came in with sophisticated and advanced tools. They exponentially grew and developed.

This difference between exponential and linear is a big deal, I think. Both do not necessarily say how intelligent the species is in terms of potential, but one can definable say that the exponential one is reaching its potential greater.

However, even after contact with humans and Neanderthals suddenly showed an increased sophistication in tool use, there's not much evidence that this was anything but them copying us, the same way an ape would, the same way any primate would. We do not see after this any increased sophistication. It stagnates again.

That's why I'm hesitant to believe we absorbed them. If we absorbed them, then it would have significant affects to what their minds would be capable of. And yet we see that a human in France is just as inventive and creative as a human in the Congo, assuming they are educated.

Your statement if dilution made me think of something however. What if other waves came over after Neanderthals were no more. What if they became so deluded that their minds were basically human.

I am still hesitant to say absorbed, because this would necessitate some kind of left over linear tendencies in terms of inventions and ability to progress. But the locals in these places show anything but linear tendencies.

Originally posted by MapMistress

The data from the offsite citation isn't quite right. There's a huge deep track (river) running through the basin of the Persian gulf and at the north end there's a section where 4 rivers intersected in the past.

There's a theory that this is the 4 rivers of Genesis.

Genesis 2: 10-14

Now a river flowed out of Eden to water the garden; and from there it divided and became four rivers. The name of the first is Pishon; it flows around the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold.[...] The name of the second river is Gihon; it flows around the whole land of Cush. The name of the third river is Tigris; it flows east of Assyria And the fourth river is the Euphrates.

There's also the city of Dilmun. Like Eden, no one's been able to find it. What if the reason they can't find it is because it's now under water?

reply to post by Gorman91

However, even after contact with humans and Neanderthals suddenly showed an increased sophistication in tool use, there's not much evidence that this was anything but them copying us, the same way an ape would, the same way any primate would. We do not see after this any increased sophistication. It stagnates again.

That's why I'm hesitant to believe we absorbed them.

Well I guess we need to look at the amount of time they initially lived side by side. Then there were interbreeding periods which would have smeared/blurred the lines between the two leading eventually to assimilation.

I'm sure while all of this was going on there were isolated pockets of pure Neanderthals/Denisovians that either by choice or luck of the draw didn't interact with Homo Sapian at all etc. Which is why we still see both fairly late in the record. Not all interbred but the ones that did not only added their genes to our lines but they themselves were physically changed in the process.

At least thats my take on it. Also we Modern man carry their genes, the proof is in us. How else would we obtain those genes? Those genetic markers are not in the Majority of Africans yet all others carry both African and the others...

reply to post by SLAYER69


Really, I cannot say, for I do not know what specific genes from them we have. What parts, what organs, what colors, what digestive enzymes, etc etc. If I did know then I could say. Thinks like protein sequences to break down food or immunize from bacteria, disease, and viruses, can be transferred over in the act of a human eating a neanderthal. We were close enough for those proteins to be absorbed and for them to edit our dna into theirs. Prions and viral proteins are really cool like that. They legitimately are non-contagious, cultural practice-based infection elements. Should this have spread into whatever part controls gamete production, the children would take on the genes too. Over the course of the some 30,000 years of contact with Neanderthals, a lot would have transferred over. Perhaps some, just by pure luck of the draw, were parallel evolution, not from cross breeding, but from simply two very similar species evolving int he same environment.

I suppose I just need more data to definable say what I think happened.

------------THREAD UPDATE------------

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Here are a couple of interesting topic related articles.

Enjoy....

The Origin of Our Species by Chris Stringer

Stringer has been a strong advocate of the dominant Out-of-Africa theory that modern humans emerged from that continent and entirely replaced earlier human types such as Homo erectus, Homo heidelbergensis and the Neanderthals. But while Out-of-Africa still holds sway, the picture is losing some of its classical simplicity. Last year, the Neanderthal Genome Project, led by the Swedish biologist Svante Pääbo, finally established that modern humans in Europe and Asia (but not Africa) have some admixture of Neanderthal genes, thus ending decades of speculation.

And in December last year the same team produced a total surprise: a genomic analysis of human remains from a cave in Denisova, southern Siberia, which proved to be genetically distinct from all known human types.

The team declined at this stage to give the find a Linnean species name, but, by analogy with the Neanderthals, named it Denisovan after the location. The actual Denisovan specimens in Siberia were 30-50,000 years old, and the type predated both modern humans and Neanderthals.

A fossil ponders the fall of the Neanderthal

What caused the Neanderthal line to diminish and disappear — whether the species was absorbed through interbreeding with early Homo sapiens or whether, being adapted for frigid weather, they were undone by global warming — no one can surely say.

I’ve read of a recent genetic study that suggests people of European and Asian extraction carry in their DNA a tiny fraction — perhaps 1 to 4 percent — of Neanderthal genetic material. The implication is that there may have been a little hanky-panky between our very distant relatives along the way.

I find that believable, for one finds marked differences among people who, to all appearances, would seem to be very much alike.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
Well I guess we need to look at the amount of time they initially lived side by side. Then there were interbreeding periods which would have smeared/blurred the lines between the two leading eventually to assimilation.

Have you looked at Skull and Lion's Cave? There is very good evidence of mixing there over successive generations and, as you'll note from the location, it would explain a great deal.

Also, re; Flood Myths, you need to read Stephen Oppenheimer's Eden is East. He has travelled the world cataloguing the flood myths. He found the greatest concentration of those myths in Micronesia and Polynesia (those spellings don't look right, if not sorry), which coincides with 'myths' of the lost Sunda culture. I have a book of Antasiaus Kircher's lythographs and I'll be buggered if his map of the 'pre-flood' coastline isn't spot-on with what we know to today (except Africa which was unknown still, at least by the Jesuits at that time, 16th century). He constructed that map based on accounts brought back to him by Jesuit missionaries, but presumably because it contradicted the 'Church' it was suppressed. Also, Oppenheimer proposes two major glacial melts, circa 15,000 years ago and circa 8,000 years ago.

Also again, I was listening to a radio programme the other day, I didn't catch the names of the scientists, but what they basically said was that the development of the Germ Theory of Infection is as important, if not more important than Darwin's Theory of Evolution. I am still absorbing that information, but your thread seems to confirm it, doesn't it? Basically what they (the 'science world') are saying right now is that viruses are the primary selective factor in evolution (under normal conditions).

So, well done for picking up on this new discovery, you have found the edge and are riding it.

reply to post by HappyBunny


I tend to favor this theory. There are a few other weird coincidences between this and Jericho/Canaan/Natufian Culture and Enoch/Cain.

In the narrative, Cain, a farmer, had murdered his brother Abel, a shepherd. He was then exiled and travelled to the land of "Nod" or wanderers, said to be "east" of Eden.

The word there for "east" in Hebrew doesn't actually have to mean "east", it literally means "front". It could be translated as "before" or "side" or even used in reference to time as being not just physically before but temporally before. Thus, the land of wanderers doesn't have to be actually "east".

Among these Wanderers, Cain finds himself a wife and bears a son, Enoch. (Note: Not the same Enoch, as the son of Jared.) The narrative follows with Cain, building the very first human city, named after his son Enoch.

I know some people will say, where did the "Wanderers" come from? If using the narrative, they come from chapter 1 of Genesis, the 6th Day verse. Eden and the better known Adam doesn't come into being until chapter 2. Most people miss the contradiction between the two chapters. Scholars caught it in the 19th century and there are numerous theories as to why such blatant contradictions exist between the two chapters. The idea that they represent two lines of humans, is sometimes called the two Adams. A whole thread could be devoted to that in itself.

Without getting too much into the contradiction between Genesis 1 and 2, lets look at actual research in the real world.

We know that archaic human hunter gatherers moved into the Middle East, prior to the rise of Natufian Culture in the Levant. These archaic humans are called the Kebaran Culture. The Kebaran Culture never settled in one place and alway stayed on the move hunting herds of wild animals. They were wanderers and they wandered the region from 18,000 BCE to 10,000 BCE.

Around 12000 BCE, a new culture appeared, the Natufians. This was the first true human civilization, the heralds of the Agricultural Revolution. This was the range of their civilization:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a3114682295f.png[/atsimg]

They built numerous villages, domesticated sheep, cultivated rye, had pet dogs and cats, but their best known achievement was the first city ever built: Jericho with over a population of 1000 and roughly 12 feet high, 6 feet thick city walls and 12 feet high towers.

The Pre-Pottery Neolithic A culture rose from the Natufians, building a 30 feet tall tower at Jericho and raising the walls to possibly 17 feet. Mud brick was used to build homes and granaries. The city expanded up to 3000 people. Pre-Pottery Neolithic B followed, which began to heavily use polished plaster to cover walls and floors.

All of this would come to an end, apparently due to massive climate change, in the 8.2 KY event, causing civilization to collapse and for Jericho to be abandoned. The 8.2 KY event resulted from the violent and rapid collapse of North American ice sheets and drainage of glacial lakes into the Atlantic Ocean. The rapid influx of fresh water into the Atlantic completely disrupted global weather patterns, resulting in "biblical scale" climate chaos. Global sea levels rapidly and permanently rose as high as 12 feet. The storms involved in such an apocalyptic climate change would have dwarfed any modern blizzards or hurricanes.

The parallels are bizarre between the stories and the history.

Originally posted by Helmkat
I thought I read that red hair is a neandethal trait...

Not a guy I know who doesn't like a lady with red hair.

Or in my case, a guy with red hair..

Yes and no. In fact tracing the red head gene might help figure out which way things went. Did Neanderthals with red hair get the gene from mating with humans with red hair? Or did humans get the red hair gene from mating with Neanderthals? Or...did humans and Neanderthals both get the red head gene because they lived in the same area and the diet or environment of the area cause the red head gene?

Which way did it go? ~shrug~

A lot of what is being discussed on here with regards to cannibalism and Neanderthals is also a common mistake made about a BURIAL PRACTICE of red heads in the Aegean, Mediterranean and Atlantic called "excarnation." By all means the burial practice seems to originate in the North Aegean and it may be a burial practice that humans and Neanderthals shared. There's two types of excarnation.

Excarnation Type #1: After a person dies, the dead body is painted with a substance to attract vultures or wild dogs to devour and deflesh the corpse. After the vultures (or other animal) have defleshed the corpse, then the bones are clean, polished and bundled. Usually the bundled bones would be placed under a sleeping mat in the home of the dead loved ones or in between the stones of a foundation of a home or wall. The skulls were nearly always kept separate. They would be cleaned and polished (in some areas they'd be plastered and painted) and the skull would be put in a shrine, either in the home of the loved one of the dead person or in a public shrine if the person was of any importance.

Excarnation Type #2: After the person dies, the dead body is painted with a substance to attract worms and vermin and then is buried. After about 1-2 weeks, the dead body is dug up after worms and bugs have devoured the flesh. The bones would be cleaned, polished and bundled and put in the home of the loved one of the dead person. Skulls cleaned, polished and put in shrines.

A LOT of archeologists have mistaken this burial practice for "cannibalism" all over the Aegean, Mediterranean and Atlantic. The reason being is that there is human tool marks on the bones, which happens during the process of cleaning the bones-- the defleshing process. So when archeologists see teeth marks (from animals used to deflesh) AND the human tool marks on the bones -- some have their mind in the gutter and wrongfully assume that it's cannibalism. It's not cannibalism at all. Just the burial practice of excarnation.

But yes, genetically those who do it are "red heads". We know this from the plastered and painted skulls, which they are plastered with white caucasian skin and they used red ochre paint for the hair color. Plus everywhere they are found-- there is presently or was in the past a large red headed population.

Which brings it back to Neanderthals and humans. Did the burial practice of excarnation originate with Neanderthals-- and the humans who mated with Neanderthals used their burial practice? Or did the burial practice of excarnation begin with humans -- and it was Neanderthals who mated with humans that borrowed the burial practice?

Either way-- it seems to originate in the North Aegean region.

Originally posted by Romekje
reply to post by MapMistress

 

bit off topic here but those graphs shows we're scary close to a new ice age are we not?

No not at all. I know they were a little small because I reduced them in size and the print was difficult to read, but it will be at least 50,000 years before the glaciers approach again. That will be a slow process taken thousands of years.

And we still have 1500-3000 years to finish this melt (warming period) first before another freeze. For sea levels to match the Eemian melt, they still have to rise between 5 meters to 15 meters above what they are now. Which means a lot more of Greenland and the North Pole still have to melt.

Originally posted by Gorman91
You know I always imagined Eden in Turkey. But I suppose who knows. Wasn't the ancient hindi city off the coast of India?

That's Dwaraka which sits at minus -36 meters off the west coast of India in the Bay of Cambay. The myth behind that both Dwaraka and a group living off the Indus was that they left their flooding city "beyond the 7 little sister islands" to settle on the Indus (Pakistan) & India coast. I've mapped the entire West Indian Ocean, Persian Gulf, Red Sea, Suez Gulf and Aqaba Gulf at all detailed levels of the Last Glacial to present. And the only region that ever had "7 little sister islands" that flooded was in the Persian Gulf.

Which means that the group that settled the Indus and Bay of Cambay who had the "myth" of origin came from a flooded city in the Persian Gulf, which sits at roughly minus -40 meters below present. Just 4 meters below the underwater city in the Bay of Cambay.

Here's a link to a fullsize map of the sunken region of the Persian Gulf at -40 meters.

Originally posted by HappyBunny
There's a theory that this is the 4 rivers of Genesis.

Genesis 2: 10-14

Now a river flowed out of Eden to water the garden; and from there it divided and became four rivers. The name of the first is Pishon; it flows around the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold.[...] The name of the second river is Gihon; it flows around the whole land of Cush. The name of the third river is Tigris; it flows east of Assyria And the fourth river is the Euphrates.

There's also the city of Dilmun. Like Eden, no one's been able to find it. What if the reason they can't find it is because it's now under water?

Yes. See the link above. On it, the Tigris is called in Hebrew the Hiddekel river and the Euphrates is called in Hebrew the Perat river.

Thanks for sharing this slayer. Do the scientists have a data on the extent of the neanderthal and denisovan DNAs in every country or region?

reply to post by SLAYER69


Fantastic Thread Slayer69 ive been away for a while


Thanks for the info im still looking at this particular thread

not only Neanderthal that is in us Hominids are too Deep and Buried

Just that 3 Percent that make Modern Man & APE Difference


if all the roads lead to dead end s as to how & why from Neanderthal to Modern Human

as the Case indeed were walking among themselves We need to know how how it came to be

1) a Viral Genetic Major Change that caused Intellectual increase that caused us Modern humans to be Weaker physically and was replaced with intelligence for Survival & caused a permanent dominate permanent damage DNA Change
In so Little Time ...




2) Aliens , Ancient Space Astronauts that caused manipulation , Alteration with mixing
3) GOD! or GODS

Africans as some Scientist Claim that Africans ( Negros) are a way Younger race then Caucasians and Asians by an estimate of 20,000 years Yet Whites are to be Originally from Africa and yet Only the Major Traces of Ancient Caucasian man Found In Africa is in Egypt mostly in Pharaoh Linea and dont forget those Whites in the China Pyramids

These Above are just the Guess


The Videos Below I could Accept The Possible Reality





Mission to Mars Dna ( The 3-4 percent scene )


Mission to Mar Ending



and for what is That 3 percent , the Difference in that 3 percent genetic material ! ! and what is it !
Not even Science can explain what it is!! yet we of Today can Alter an DNA Sequence Add & Take Away
with Genetic Engineering

H G Well SciFI Book has became a Reality a Book that was made over 114+ years ago ..

The Island of Dr Moreau
en.wikipedia.org...

Watch Animal Farm ! if you have Skeptic thoughts Watch it Below

Animal Farm Episode 1, Part 1 of 10




IS Pye's Theory Idea Plausible Especially when you watch the Video Above !

Lloyd Pye - Ancient Genetic Engineering


I need to check some Sumerian Text & Cylinders LOL

ohh yeah i forgot ! The Christian Hebrew Nephilim Story well these Humans genetic code has been unlocked

Nephilim
en.wikipedia.org...

and for Fun

The Real Superhumans
en.wikipedia.org...
7 People From Around the World With Real Mutant Superpowers
By: Juan Arteaga June 30, 2008 2,652,646 view

(Cracked)
Read more: 7 People From Around the World With Real Mutant Superpowers | Cracked.com www.cracked.com...

The Real Superhumans and the Quest for the Future Fantastic (Video Intro)
www.youtube.com...

www.cracked.com...

Dennis Rogers Promo
www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by romanmel
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

Great post. Your info was confirmed and expanded on in a book I recently fininshed "Genes Giants Monsters and Men" by Dr Joseph P Farrell.

An interesting and informative interview with Dr Farrell was done recently on Coast to Coast:

Thanks for the interview, I'll listen to it.

reply to post by hoghead cheese


You are very welcome.

Dr Farrell's website is full of interesting info and is at:

gizadeathstar.com...

reply to post by Wolfenz


I actually saw the whole Lloyde Pye presentation 3 years ago on a rainy saturday and it changed my view big time. We as modern human shouldn't have won out with the Neanderthal and including the Giganthopythisus (7 to 9 foot tall ape/man that is supposed to be what bigfoot is). And then to survive in our state during the Megafauna. And then the radiation issue, Humans and Pigs are the only two animals that get sunburned/sun posioning, yet we "evolved" on this planet. And pointing this out, I read on a forum sometime ago a story that was so weird and crazy that even the poster didn't believe it.

Essentially he posted a story from a retired military officer about how humans came to be on this planet. He said that humans or really humans a little different than us today came her to colonize and the found out that a reptilian species somewhat lived already on this planet. At first they lived side by side but then they started to play games with each other tha came to fighting with one another. The reptiles slept during the day and was up at night and these humanoids where up during the day but mostly slept at night. So when the reptiles slept the humanoids would sneak into their enclaves and steal eggs to eat (which where their young). When this was done the reptiles would try to sneak into their enclaves (the humanoids and steal and eat the young or old of their people). On and on this went, the rest of the story was so weird. It talked about how the reptiles would use genetic engineering to change the humanoids that they had to some form of pig animal and on and on.

This story was so crazy that it couldn't be real, but what if the story of the conflict was the story. Meaning that our forefathers came here as one type of people and fought a war of supremacy with evolved sauron/reptilian beings (Have any of you ever wondered why none of the smaller reptiles didn't evolve enough to be sentient).

Interesting. I think that the idea that modern humans spread out accross the globe "assimilating" local populations, thus aquiring some of their resistance to local pathogens is both logical and intuitive.

It does open up new questions though; where did the local populations come from - what about this out of Africa theory? Questions!

It suggests to me that there were two migrations of 'human types'. One which was early enough for the various populations to grow and evolve and differentiate. This would be followed by the migration spoken of in the OP.

Just thinking out loud here, climing nothing as fact, just speculation.

This is a good thread, Slayer. I have had it opened in a tab since page 1, but it has grown faster than I have had the opportunity to read (busy days lately).

I think the possibility of Neandertals being assimilated is certainly a strong one. However, the effect of viruses on human development is, to me, a major idea.

I have had 2 major illnesses in my adult life. After each, I was a very, very different person than i was before. The first, a type A flu, happened about 15 years ago. Before this, I was inquisitive, but little more. I had a lot of potential, and that was it. About 3 years later i came down with shingles. This was horrible. The flu like symptoms were severe, although the nerve blisters were no walk in the park.

After this last infection i returned to work after 3 weeks out. Immediately I was the top performer out of 5000 employees. I had never done much in any job before, other than make a paycheck and enjoy my personal life. But after returning to this job (a call center), i ended up working my way up to site director in 6 years.

Because of that, I now kind of get to pick and choose the work i do. I have a very strong resume, and turn down job offers on a monthly basis (the last one, a few days ago, wanted me to move to California for triple my current pay....i don't hink you could pay me enough to move to California, honestly).

My son is another example. He is now 13. Up until he was 11, he was a HUGE pain in the butt. Don't misunderstand me....he is my son and I have always loved him without boundary. But if we are to be honest about behaviors, he was a pain in the butt. He came down with swine flu back when it was all the craze. Spent a week in the hospital, and we had to give away our tickets to see Metallica in concert (broke all our hearts). Before his illness, he was always in some small trouble at school for talking, or whatever other game of grabass he was involved in. Since the flu, he is subdued and cerebral. His grades improved into the straight A range (like his older brother), and his teachers begin to tell us what an outstanding kid he was.

I have seen major, major changes in both myself and my children after a viral infection. Almost lke a whole new person emerged.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


You would be interested to see a documentary I saw about the human genome. They were talking about what scientists used to call 'junk dna' but which now they see may have come from virus infections millenia ago. I will try and find a link. It was suggested that this inherted dna was a valuable part of our evolutionary history. Can't remember more.

ETA: Just Goggled for "virus dna in human genome" - take a look, some really interesting links!

reply to post by SLAYER69


fantastic post , always a pleasure reading your stuff, my IQ just jumped up a few points hahahah

thanks !

Don't know if you have seen this site but I thought I would share. timelinesdb.com... Back a few years ago I read an article in a science magazine that said they had found a cave in South Africa along the coast where they had discovered the remains of modern humans. The remains were dated to about 3,000,000 years ago. There is also a claim of human remains found in a cave in Isreal that have been dated to 400,000 years.
I found these claims to be most curious at the time. Since modern humans are not supposed to date back as far as the fossils found in South Africa. Also I had thought ,perhaps incorrectly that modern humans hadn't gotten as far as the middle east at that time.
Since I can't find any information on this find anymore, Perhaps it was a false age determination.
Any way great thread as always. The origins of the homo genus has always fastinated me. Thanks for this very interesting information. S&F and greatly deserved.