Neanderthals and Denisovans our Genetic cousins

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

This would seem to me to tie into the Rh factor , lactose intolerance and other food allergies.

Something radically changed the population out of Africa.

I've been struggling with how to properly formulate another thread along those lines. About why there are such catastrophic genetic abnormalities. I do have some stuff down but I'll use this and another thread to support that thread in it's premise.

I don't want to get too far into it at this moment.
Stay tuned, that will be a long one.

reply to post by SLAYER69


[color=gold]

This data that you have presented
seems to answer some questions many ask in regards to race color - build of body skeletal structure - and BLOODLINES. It makes alot of sense in many ways, I do however wonder how the migration played a part in the western north central and southern land masses of the Americanaz? Because in the chart its logical to follow the land as far as it can take you to water barrier and then settle. So I can see the migration pattern you shared being takin. But did the whole western land mass get populated via crossing over thru northern eastern Asia land bridge or some other way or both for the matter. And what of Antarctica if it was not ice covered to further add? Now yes I am an outta box thinker and see land mass locks, open and close open and close (cycles) and the poss that early man went West North East South, some what like genetic destiny to cover as much land. With that it will be nice to see more well put presentations covering the development of the Human species and its multiple parts that make it 1 big FAMILY over all so why infighting and not LOVE? Had to add sorry.

S&F for your efforts
SLAYER69
Be Well

reply to post by Ophiuchus 13


Hybrids would not have anything to do with skin type. Maybe something to do with different blood types. Not likely much to do with skeletal build.

The majority of the genetic material transferred has to do with viral immunity and local acclimatization. In addition, it's not a big happy family. Artifacts left behind by neanderthals shows a sudden shift around the time they made contact with humans. Suddenly their dead are buried less, evidence of cannibalism is greater, and caves that were Neanderthal caves show a sudden transition into becoming human caves.

What this shows is evidence for violence against Neanderthals. Specifically, increased desperation from Neanderthals to survive.

The traits that we did get were just for local conditions. Traits like hair color and eye color were not on the same genome. Thus we could not absorb those traits from them.

To go a bit off topic, this is also related to the alien hybridization silliness out there. If a species just barely a million years off from us already had incompatible genes for hair color and such things, how on Earth could something from another planet even have remotely similar genes to mix with mankind? The genes for our brains might be located for their feet on their genes.


Long story short, Virus immunity and blood types are easier to translate in a hybrid because they are more permanent genes. Genes that change every couple of thousand years, like external features, become incompatible within a few generations, because they are evolving faster. They have to be. If a species could not adapt to changes in their environment quickly, it would die off.

In addition, with the advent of prion research and similar topics, and evidence for cannibalism, people like myself ponder if these traits were translated from eating under cooked or red meat of neanderthals. This can happen. In humans, it causes diseases like Kuru and CJV. When one eats meat of a very related species, the genetic material, specifically the proteins, can transfer over and activate in the other species. This is, btw, why should not eat monkey brains.

Does this support ancient alien theory?

I just want to thank everyone who has participated thus far. It has been a great discussion.

I'm grateful for the civil and mature level of contributions.

When I read articles like these, I can't help but wonder how much is based on fact and how much is based on assumptions.

Nonetheless, it makes for an interesting read.

johnhawks.net...

reply to post by Gorman91

The majority of the genetic material transferred has to do with viral immunity and local acclimatization. In addition, it's not a big happy family. Artifacts left behind by neanderthals shows a sudden shift around the time they made contact with humans. Suddenly their dead are buried less, evidence of cannibalism is greater, and caves that were Neanderthal caves show a sudden transition into becoming human caves.

What this shows is evidence for violence against Neanderthals. Specifically, increased desperation from Neanderthals to survive.

OR....

What this shows is that we interbreed with them and slowly diluted their lines as Modern man multiplied after taking on their genetic material. This is why there appears such a rapid change over from Neanderthal caves to Homo Sapian occupied caves. The "Family" never really left. They just became more like us through interbreeding.

They genetically changed not the occupancy changed.

reply to post by SLAYER69


I'd agree if that was the only evidence, but the sudden appearance of cannibalism and the decreased care in burial suggests something more dark. Situations like what you are describing have been observed by modern man. For example, the Mediterranean region. That area has exchanged power and control between Middle East, African, and European rule and culture. And through it all, a consistent stable cultural ideology continued in existence. Art, music, and religion all significantly maintained the same common ways and common behaviorism of the population continued, with the only significant change being when the Christians swept through. Further changed when the Muslims did a few centuries later. But even through such gradual and rapid changes, a consistent culture has continued. We do not see a sudden lack of care with burial. We do not see cannibalism and signs of desperation increase. We see a consistent cultural ideology through generations of ever changing individuals.

With Neanderthals, it's not so. There is a clear and sudden shift in behavior, cultural practice, and environment.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by Gorman91

 

Interesting question.

The second video I posted in my second reply goes into some of that. Also I feel. [And I'll take some heat for this] That mankind has been knocked back several times from various levels of development. [None of which ever reached our level but still somewhat advanced level in megalithic construction etc]

Which I suspect the evidence is along those now submerged ice-age coastlines.

I believe that also, we for whatever reason got knocked back again and again and what we see or somewhat see from remains is whats left of humanoid civilization. What if the big secret is that Neanderthal did build megalithic structures but during these "resets", they lost that ability to do it anymore. I've always wondered them being as strong as they are and possibly intelligent, they didn't build structures. But anyway you hit it on the head about the interbreeding coming out of Africa, and if people don't believe it you can still see some remnants of facial features in some humans of today (I know I have seen some). It's truly amazing that we had at least 3 distinct hominid intelligent species on this planet. I wonder what it would have been like to actually have had them continue side by side with us to today's date.

reply to post by Gorman91


When I read of cannibalism I think of Environmental stresses. Things changed drastically during the Ice age this is the period were are talking about which also coincides with the massive Megafuana die off.

Coincidence?


A massive die off of a possible major food source during an Ice age/Climatic change then signs of cannibalism....

Originally posted by jam321
When I read articles like these, I can't help but wonder how much is based on fact and how much is based on assumptions.

Nonetheless, it makes for an interesting read.

johnhawks.net...

Great find.
Very interesting contribution..

reply to post by hoghead cheese


I thought about that once, but I don't think it would be pretty. Think about how angrily we fight each other as one species. Now suppose you had humanity develop alongside a species that could be scientifically observed to be less intelligent? We would probably enslave them unfortunately. Who knows. Maybe we did.


Thinking about this topic has somewhat convinced me that aliens are likely to not be as intelligent as man, but more like Netherlands. There ARE advantages to this. Humans are exponential creatures. Neanderthals were not. The primary evidence for this is the lack of refinement in neanderthal tools, but the presence of constant refinement and advancement in human tools. We improve everything we have, Neanderthals simply used what their ancestors did. If a mistake in a tool making procedure was beneficial, they used it.

The benefits of being linear rather than exponential like man is simple. Stability. We advancing only though mistakes, and not being able to think up new and more efficient ways (unless shown), a culture stagnates, but becomes more stable. It won't be riffed with war and instability. This vastly increases the chances that the species makes it to space. Where as with man, we risk blowing ourselves up quite frankly every week.

Point here is this. While Neanderthals were very likely as capable as us, they were incapable of getting there as fast as we. We drew, dreamed, and invented. Neanderthals did not. But don't assume that's necessarily a bad thing.

reply to post by SLAYER69


But then wouldn't that put Neanderthals on human menus do to that same desperation?

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

But then wouldn't that put Neanderthals on human menus do to that same desperation?

Of course. We ate each other.

Donnor Party?

We don't need to have Neanderthals or strictly Humans to have cannibalism? If it got that bad ANYTHING goes on the menu.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Well that's the scales I think. In desperation, sex food and survival become.... bad things some times. So it would be interesting to ponder what scales of each were responsible for the genetic absorption

Originally posted by SLAYER69
The following animation I made for another thread of mine [The third in a series still to be posted]

I only got to see part of it and then something disconnected me (a breach attempt through my firewall)-- not sure if it was from my end or yours. It probably looks similar to the little avatar animations that I put up (each under 75KB) and I was going to put up a map of a sunken region nearby Neanderthal range, but I think I've got limitations on how much I can upload even though I make sure nothing is above 75kilobytes. ~shrug~

It shows how the ocean levels and distances between the areas in question were drastically different during those periods. Which could answer some of the questions of our Journey.

Well, without getting to put in a map (a picture is worth a 10,000 words) I guess I have to go through the text description. Hope you don't get lost.

NEANDERTHAL RANGE & HUMAN POPULATIONS ON ISLANDS: GENETIC SHIFT

I put together a list of 69 islands that border Neanderthal range (bear in mind there's far more than 69 islands that qualify). I focused primarily on Neanderthals in the Aegean (Greece & Turkey) and Neanderthals in the Adriatic, Mediterranean, & Tyrrhenian (Italy & Croatia). I put together a list of estimates of genetic shift which is subject to change as scientists dive to the ocean floor and collect the proper underwater soil samples for scientific dating methods. Some islands have scientists-in-progress, others don't. Until then everything is an estimate. Also there might be a few islands off by 2-10 meters in their listings and if I'm provided with more precise data I will move them to their appropriate nautical connect depths. No two nautical charts are alike.

Islands above 125,000 years of human evolutionary genetic shift-- might be looking at 125,000 to 250,000 year genetic shift in human evolution

Skopelos, Alonnisos, Peristera islands: Sporades: Aegean Sea: connect to Skiathos-mainland at -114 meters below present. Definitely populated by humans in the freeze before the Eemian melt which means that humans were stuck on this island chain for over 125,000 years evolving separately from mainland humans.

Ikaria: Eastern Sporades: Aegean Sea: not sure if human populated before the Eemian. And uncertain how long ago Ikaria separated from the Samos/Fournoi coastline. At the closest point between the Fournoi coastline and Ikaria, sea depths are -125 to -128 meters below present. Rivers could have cut the distance.

123,000 years of human evolutionary genetic shift
These islands connect to the mainland between -100 to -110 meters below present. If humans had migrated there during the freeze before the Eemian melt and if they were stuck on these islands during the Eemian to the Last Glacial (and survived)-- then they would acquire an estimated 123,000 years in genetic shift from mainland humans.

Agios Efstratios: Eastern Sporades: Aegean Sea
Fournoi islands: Dodecanese: Aegean Sea
Hydra island: Saronic Gulf: Aegean Sea
Ireland: (north Ireland connects to Scotland): Celtic Sea
Sicily: Italy: Mediterranean Sea

93,000 years of human evolutionary genetic shift
These islands connect to the mainland between -90 to -100 meters below present. If humans had migrated there during the freeze before the Eemian melt and if they were stuck on these islands during the Eemian to the Last Glacial (and survived)-- then they would acquire an estimated 93,000 years in genetic shift from mainland humans.

Bisevo island: Croatia: Adriatic Sea
Imia island: Dodecanese: Aegean Sea
Malta: (connects to Sicily) Mediterranean Sea
Patmos island: Dodecanese: Aegean Sea
Paxoi island: Ionian Sea
Svetac island: Croatia: Adriatic Sea

87,000 years of human evolutionary genetic shift
These islands connect to the mainland between -80 to -90 meters below present. If humans had migrated there during the freeze before the Eemian melt and if they were stuck on these islands during the Eemian to the Last Glacial (and survived)-- then they would acquire an estimated 87,000 years in genetic shift from mainland humans.

Agathonisi island: Dodecanese: Aegean Sea
Agina island: Saronic Gulf: Aegean Sea
Antikythira island: Pelopponesus: Aegean Sea
Arki island: Dodecanese: Aegean Sea
Kalymnos island: Dodecanese: Aegean Sea
Leros island: Dodecanese: Aegean Sea
Lipsi island: Dodecanese: Aegean Sea
Vis island: Croatia: Adriatic Sea

65,000 years of human evolutionary genetic shift
These islands connect to the mainland between -70 to -80 meters below present. If humans had migrated there during the freeze before the Eemian melt and if they were stuck on these islands during the Eemian to the Last Glacial (and survived)-- then they would acquire an estimated 65,000 years in genetic shift from mainland humans.

Limnos island: Eastern Sporades: Aegean Sea

55,000 years of human evolutionary genetic shift
These islands connect to the mainland between -60 to -70 meters below present. If humans had migrated there during the freeze before the Eemian melt and if they were stuck on these islands during the Eemian to the Last Glacial (and survived)-- then they would acquire an estimated 55,000 years in genetic shift from mainland humans.

Dugi Otok island: Croatia: Adriatic Sea
Kornati island: Croatia: Adriatic Sea
Lastovo island: Croatia: Adriatic Sea
Plateia island: Argolic Gulf: Aegean Sea
Sestrunj island: Croatia: Adriatic Sea
Tenedos island: Eastern Sporades: Aegean Sea
Zut island: Croatia: Adriatic Sea

50,000 years of human evolutionary genetic shift
These islands connect to the mainland between -50 to -60 meters below present. If humans had migrated there during the freeze before the Eemian melt and if they were stuck on these islands during the Eemian to the Last Glacial (and survived)-- then they would acquire an estimated 50,000 years in genetic shift from mainland humans.

Brac island: Croatia: Adriatic Sea
Iz island: Croatia: Adriatic Sea
Kerkira island: Ionian Sea
Mljet island: Croatia: Adriatic Sea
Solta island: Croatia: Adriatic Sea
Stira island: Petaloi Gulf: Greece/Aegean Sea
Zirje island: Croatia: Adriatic Sea

45,000 years of human evolutionary genetic shift
These islands connect to the mainland between -40 to -50 meters below present. If humans had migrated there during the freeze before the Eemian melt and if they were stuck on these islands during the Eemian to the Last Glacial (and survived)-- then they would acquire an estimated 45,000 years in genetic shift from mainland humans.

Cres island: Croatia: Adriatic Sea
Hvac island: Croatia: Adriatic Sea
Ist island: Croatia: Adriatic Sea
Molat island: Croatia: Adriatic Sea
Ilovik island: Croatia: Adriatic Sea
Korcula island: Croatia: Adriatic Sea
Olib island: Croatia: Adriatic Sea
Premuda island: Croatia: Adriatic Sea
Pserimos island: Dodecanese: Aegean Sea
Silba island: Croatia: Adriatic Sea
Skarda island: Croatia: Adriatic Sea

41,000 years of human evolutionary genetic shift
These islands connect to the mainland between -30 to -40 meters below present. If humans had migrated there during the freeze before the Eemian melt and if they were stuck on these islands during the Eemian to the Last Glacial (and survived)-- then they would acquire an estimated 41,000 years in genetic shift from mainland humans.

Alba island: Tyrrhenian Sea
Kos island: Dodecanese: Aegean Sea
Lesvos island: Eastern Sporades: Aegean Sea
Leukas island: Ionian Sea
Makronissos island: Petaloi Gulf: Aegean Sea
Maun island: Croatia: Adriatic Sea
Samos island: Dodecanes/Eastern Sporades: Aegean Sea
Samothraki island: North Aegean Sea
Ugljan island: Croatia: Adriatic Sea

10,000 yr shift, then reconnect, then disconnect by 5,000 years of evolutionary genetic shift
These islands connect to the mainland between -20 to -30 meters below present. It's unusual but they are disconnected for approximately 10,000 years, then they reconnect, then disconnect, reconnect, then disconnect for 5,000 years. It may not be the same kind of genetic shift as other islands, but none the less if humans were stuck there, there might still be a genetic shift from mainland humans.

Oinoussa island: Eastern Sporades: Aegean Sea
Skiathos island: Northern Sporades: Aegean Sea
Spetses island: Argolic Gulf: Aegean Sea
Thassos island: North Aegean Sea

9,000 years of human evolutionary genetic shift
These islands connect to the mainland between -10 to -20 meters below present. There's still a slight possibility of a genetic shift in 9,000 years so they are included with the rest.

Chios island: Eastern Sporades: Aegean Sea
Krk island: Croatia: Adriatic Sea
Pag island: Croatia: Adriatic Sea
Pasman island: Croatia: Adriatic Sea
Peljesac island: Croatia: Adriatic Sea
Poros island: Saronic Gulf: Aegean Sea
Salamina island: Saronic Gulf: Aegean Sea

-----------
Maybe if I can't upload a new map because of whatever limits is placed on me...maybe I can at least link to the mini-animation of the north end of the Adriatic?? The cross-section covers the region from about Ancona, Italy over to the northern islands of Croatia. It's a huge loss of coastline. Not to mention how many Croatian islands have potential for human evolutionary genetic shift.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8fe647708c77.gif[/atsimg]

Originally posted by Gorman91

At its peak, the floodplain now below the Gulf would have been about the size of Great Britain, and then shrank as water began to flood the area. Then, about 8,000 years ago, the land would have been swallowed up by the Indian Ocean

Watery refuge
The Gulf Oasis would have been a shallow inland basin exposed from about 75,000 years ago until 8,000 years ago, forming the southern tip of the Fertile Crescent, according to historical sea-level records.

The data from the offsite citation isn't quite right. There's a huge deep track (river) running through the basin of the Persian gulf and at the north end there's a section where 4 rivers intersected in the past. It began flooding like the rest of the planet losing approximately -75 to -80 meters below present at the Younger Dryas which is c. 10,800-10,000 years ago. (8800-8000 B.C.E.) It looks similar to this but slower in thousands of years of progression.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/489530c008db.gif[/atsimg]

Originally posted by SLAYER69
In this animation watch what happens to the Persian Gulf region in the last 10,000 years. If the article is correct something major happened around 8,000 years ago or 6,000 BC so now we are getting close to the birth of their civilization.

Slayer69,

The link to "In this animation" didn't work. It redirects back to this page. I wanted to compare it to my mini-animation. Could you repost the link? Thanks.

im going to sound like an idiot fair warning.

I understand you are speaking of species, and what we have now are races. But, could the inter-racial breeding give more insight? To clarify, blonde hair blue eyes- supposedly will become exrinct. Sickle cell- I dont think my mixed child is at risk, because she is half caucasian? not sure about that, just trying to clarify, her dad doent have the trait.

In trying to find out where we have been as humans, would it be smart to look where we are headed as humans?

Thanks for the very interesting info, the history of humans has always intrigued me, but I never knew where to start.

Originally posted by jam321
When I read articles like these, I can't help but wonder how much is based on fact and how much is based on assumptions.

Nonetheless, it makes for an interesting read.

johnhawks.net...

I would say that much is based on speculation and theory, but I agree; a good and interesting read.

Is this what they check for in that test from national gweographic where they tell you where your ancint ancestors used to roam? They want to tell us if we are neandertals or homo ????

It seems like they go back pretty far with that test