Pregnant and Miscarry Your Baby In America? Do Not Pass Go, Directly To JAIL!

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by hotbakedtater

And while a fetus exists once conception occurs, it certainly has no ability to survive outside the womb at that stage, making it a potential person, not a person.

So since a premature baby in a machine is not a real person since it needs the machine to live?

How about a person in a coma for the last 6motnhs? They need machines too.

What about the person who needs an Asthma inhaler to survive? Does one cease to be a real person when they are reliant on other persons or technologies for survival?

In the end, this means that none of us are real people. Because we are all reliant on each other and our technology at some level or another.

It has a DNA code and it is replicating, therefore it is a living organism.

Well, an amoeba is a living organism, but it is not a person. A premature baby hooked up to machines has been born, and exists outside of the womb, making it a seperate entity. Until the umbilical cord is severed, that fetus is not a seperate entity and not a person. This thread is not about machines, it is about protecting women from being jailed for miscarriages, and the grey areas of the law. I myslef believe in medicine and medical procedures to help those of us who have been born and are already here. I believe in medical procedures for unborn babies too, if the mother so chooses, since the fetus is in her body it is her choice.

Originally posted by AngryOne
reply to post by hotbakedtater

 

a day old fetus is not a person, it is a POTENTIAL person.

Where did you get this idea, ma'am? Can you please elaborate on this?

Can a day old fetus survive outside my womb? No until it is born, it is a parasite upon my body, which is its host. It literally needs my body (not a bottle or boob or diapers or blankets, but my literal body) to survive. The fetus has the potential to become a person if I choose to go forth with the pregnancy. Once born, the fetus is a seperate entity, a person of its own rights.

I suffered from pre-eclampsia with all three of my children - severe with the first.

If I had miscarried, and someone thought it was because I was too physically active, should I be charged with murder?

What if the medication I took for high blood pressure also slightly increased my chances of miscarriage? Is that murder? Is it better that I not take the medication, and both of us die in childbirth?

What if I miscarry, and someone decides it is due to my having breastfeed baby, and my body being unable to handle the competing resources? Is that murder?

I am pro-choice.

I am also very unpleased with women and men who do things they know have no upside and will absolutely contribute to problems for a fetus and the later baby. If your child is born with some form of known problem from some sort of substance use that one knew was a going to cause a problem, and which had no medical value, I think this issue could be dealt with in civil court. Children born with extra needs due to negligence are given a public advocate, and the public advocate sues the parent(s). (because, yes men, your contributions can cause fetal damage too - like male influence FAS). Unlikely to collect on this, but it squarely puts a pronounced determined burden on the parents which is still not anywhere near as severe and damaging as they've put on their children. A burden which is not tied in any way to custody or legal parenthood, but solely between two people.

On a less serious note, but showing my love of a good social solution: If a woman who is a druggie or alcoholic has a miscarriage due to substance abuse....perhaps we should instead mail her a card thanking her for not contributing to the gene pool. Cruel, but I would bet this is far more effective than any law could ever be in a far far faster time period.

Originally posted by muzzleflash


This is about Human Rights and how the Government tramples them in the name of big $$$.

You are spot on. That is my whole point! This is about human rights, the rights of female humans to be free from persecution when it comes to the rights over their own bodies!

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by ldyserenity
reply to post by hotbakedtater

 

Well smoking cigarettes would never terminate a pregnancy nor would smoking crack or heroin or marijauna for that matter the only thing that really has been proven to cause miscarriage is alcohol so they really will only find alcoholics to prosecute for this.

edit on 24-6-2011 by ldyserenity because: edit for spelling

Anything I think can cause it, and everyone's bio-chemistry is different slightly.

Sometimes a woman's body will just decide it is not functionally correct to carry the child and will automatically miscarry as a biological chemistry based result. This is merely a theory based on observation and I admit I haven't seen any tests proving it but I would be expecting a result like this to pop up every once in awhile.

Like one fine ATSer posted above, their family has a history of having a higher % rate of miscarries. This can be genetic or environmental or both mixed.

There are potentially thousands of factors to take into account when trying to determine exactly what caused each individual miscarriage as each one will be different.

Exactly...but as far as proven tested true things that cause fetal death...alcohol is the only that's actually been proven but Thats with the person being above intoxication levels daily ie alcoholic. That's what I learned in Nursing class.

Dude, that's terrible... Nice find though, S&F

I agree in protecting the rights of people too.
And I want the government out of all of our business.

But using the crutch false dichotomy "it's not alive" is simply not true.
And if you define "person" you will discover it is subjective and not objective.

I personally think all life forms are persons in their own way. They are alive and exist. Just because you cannot fathom their brilliance does not mean I shouldn't either. I see an infinite and rich world inside an amoeba. I really wish you could too.

You should check out these two books by Carl Sagan I bet you will actually find them really awesome and totally up your alley if you pick them up. He really dispels the myths and misunderstandings people repeat about "what makes us alive?" and "what makes us human?".

He proves beyond any reasonable doubt that there is no qualifying factor that applies to all lifeforms that you can say "The quality of X makes something alive". Life is so versatile and varied, you have to change things up all of the time and no rule always applies.

And then he tackles "What makes us Human?". And in the end, anything you think that is unique about us can be proven and observed occurring in nature with some odd species or another, including technology or communication or social structures or emotions etc etc.

In the end, the only thing that makes us human is the fact we have human DNA codes. That's about it.

Amazon-Dragons of Eden

Amazon- Shadows of Forgotton Ancestors

reply to post by hotbakedtater

Dear God.....is this where feminism gets us? If so, to Hell with feminism. Disgusting.

I.....I'm just at a loss right now.

Why is it that so many women seem to have no problems with killing their own babies? It's kind of hard to believe that society has sunk this low......

reply to post by hotbakedtater

An increasing number of states are using a single, unconfirmed, positive drug test on a new mother or baby as a basis for involving child welfare authorities. In some cases resulting in the removal of the newborn from family custody. Women who have tested positive for drugs administered during labor, women in federally approved methadone treatment programs, and women whose drug use in no way compromises their parenting ability have had their children taken from them.

The above quote from the OP's source is definitely ironic.....

Child welfare agencies across America consistently fail to pull children out of neglectful and abusive homes, despite substantial evidence of these crimes occurring. They put children at risk every day by placing them back in these homes over and over, many times with fatal consequences to the child. These agencies like to cite their reasons for this as being a heavy caseload that doesn't allow them to do their job....yet they see fit to remove a newborn from a family because of a positive drug test. I guess it's okay to let children survive in unfit homes and be battered or neglected throughout their childhood and fail to take action, though.

None of it makes any sense to me.....

Originally posted by AngryOne
reply to post by hotbakedtater

 

Dear God.....is this where feminism gets us? If so, to Hell with feminism. Disgusting.

I.....I'm just at a loss right now.

Why is it that so many women seem to have no problems with killing their own babies? It's kind of hard to believe that society has sunk this low......

Think about it though.

If you believe these people to have low moral or ethical standards, do you really want them reproducing?


I assume we are talking about "Cosmetic Abortion" and not abortion for medical reasons.

Originally posted by muzzleflash
But using the crutch false dichotomy "it's not alive" is simply not true.
...

In the end, the only thing that makes us human is the fact we have human DNA codes. That's about it.

Amazon-Dragons of Eden

[url=http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_30?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=shadows+of+forgotten+ancestors&x=0&y=0&sprefix=shadows+o f+forgotten+ancestors]Amazon- Shadows of Forgotton Ancestors[/url

First off thank you for the links, I believe I have a Sagan book, but it is not the ones you mentioned.

Second, I do not use the false dichotomy of its not alive, because it is very much alive. But being alive does not make one a person. Birth does that. Trees are alive, yet they are not people.

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by AngryOne
reply to post by hotbakedtater

 

Dear God.....is this where feminism gets us? If so, to Hell with feminism. Disgusting.

I.....I'm just at a loss right now.

Why is it that so many women seem to have no problems with killing their own babies? It's kind of hard to believe that society has sunk this low......

Think about it though.

If you believe these people to have low moral or ethical standards, do you really want them reproducing?

I assume we are talking about "Cosmetic Abortion" and not abortion for medical reasons.

Do not assume, I am discussing women's rights, and the right to abort for ANY and ALL reasons the female chooses. That is called freedom of choice for her body, which exists as a person.

Originally posted by NightGypsy

The above quote from the OP's source is definitely ironic.....

Child welfare agencies across America consistently fail to pull children out of neglectful and abusive homes, despite substantial evidence of these crimes occurring. They put children at risk every day by placing them back in these homes over and over, many times with fatal consequences to the child. These agencies like to cite their reasons for this as being a heavy caseload that doesn't allow them to do their job....yet they see fit to remove a newborn from a family because of a positive drug test. I guess it's okay to let children survive in unfit homes and be battered or neglected throughout their childhood and fail to take action, though.

None of it makes any sense to me.....

It makes perfect sense to me.

That you somehow think you or the government have jurisdiction or authority over what is right in other people's families or homes.

I don't think CPS should ever even exist. Only the police should exist and they should only arrest people when they are formally charging them with a crime like assault or murder or something.

There is no such thing as child abuse, there is only human abuse, and it's a crime all the time.

Like I said. No jurisdiction or authority. The people have authority over their own lives, let them live it as they wish and stop seeking oppression and kidnappings.

You have no idea how much misery and evil organizations or agencies like CPS have wrought upon the people of this nation. They destroy more lives than they fix I've seen it in real life first hand.

reply to post by AngryOne


The stupid outrage is ridiculous.

Human population rose only a small amount over a long time. Most fertile couples did not have 20 children. They didn't usually have 10. They didn't even usually have 7. That's 20 to 40 years of fertility, with most of the couples on the planet having less than 4.

I dare you to look since records have been kept anywhere. Most couples weren't having a child every 2.5 years-3.5 years. 2.5 years would be the average amount of time between children, based on ecological nursing causing a lack of ovulation for 14 months after childbirth (14 months mean). 14 months+9months of pregnancy(+one year window to get pregnant for usually fertile people).

So.....exactly how do you think that happened? Hmmmmm?

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
But being alive does not make one a person. Birth does that. Trees are alive, yet they are not people.

Trees were born, therefore they are people.

People who came from C-Sections are not people, they were never actually 'born naturally'.

???

Sorry just pointing out how easy it is to chop this line of thinking up. You are making "unsound arguments".

Inductive Reasoning - Wiki

Soundness - Wiki

Deductive Reasoning - Wiki

Defeasible Reasoning - Wiki

reply to post by muzzleflash

t makes perfect sense to me. That you somehow think you or the government have jurisdiction or authority over what is right in other people's families or homes.

Whoa.....hold up........

I never indicated one way or another what my personal views were on whether or not CPS should exist. I'm just stating a simple fact, given that these agencies DO exist and they DO have jurisdiction and authority over some of these situations ....whether I want them to or not. My opinion is based on what is actually occurring in America, and not a show of support for agencies like CPS.

Yes, these agencies HAVE caused problems for a number of reasons. My point is, it makes no sense to me that they fail to protect children who have extensive case files involving abuse and neglect, but yet turn around and take such aggressive action as snatching a newborn from it's mother after one failed drug test.

That's all I'm saying.......

reply to post by Aeons

What the hell are you talking about, ma'am?



reply to post by hotbakedtater

I am thoroughly disgusted. Really, I can't believe people like you.

reply to post by NightGypsy


My bad. I misread your intent.

I formally apologize.

Too bad I can't take it back...Oh well.

For anyone who likes CPS that comment stands for them.

I am REALLY sorry! I always have to look super-dumb once per day on ATS and I suppose this might just be it.

I make comments just like yours all the time so it's pretty pathetic that I jumped automatically after it. It's the whole "Well they aren't even doing their jobs right, if they did it right and justly things wouldn't be so bad but they can't even get the basics of their job correct" type argument. Yes I totally agree with that point.

reply to post by muzzleflash

You have no idea how much misery and evil organizations or agencies like CPS have wrought upon the people of this nation. They destroy more lives than they fix I've seen it in real life first hand.

What makes you think "I have no idea?" What reason do you have for assuming I don't have some type of firsthand knowledge of these things myself? Do you know what my career path has been? I DO know many things of this nature firsthand, Muzzleflash.

Time to calm down a little.

reply to post by muzzleflash

I make comments just like yours all the time so it's pretty pathetic that I jumped automatically after it. It's the whole "Well they aren't even doing their jobs right, if they did it right and justly things wouldn't be so bad but they can't even get the basics of their job correct" type argument. Yes I totally agree with that point.

No problem, Muzzleflash, I have done the same myself. Issues like this are very hot and we have a lot of topics in these forums that bring about these responses from us.