Pregnant and Miscarry Your Baby In America? Do Not Pass Go, Directly To JAIL!

If it's not a crime for a mother to intentionally end her pregnancy, how can it be a crime for her to do it unintentionally, whether by taking drugs or smoking or whatever it is," Robert McDuff, a civil rights lawyer asked the state supreme court.

McDuff told the Guardian that he hoped the Gibbs prosecution was an isolated example. "I hope it's not a trend that's going to catch on. To charge a woman with murder because of something she did during pregnancy is really unprecedented and quite extreme."

He pointed out that anti-abortion groups were trying to amend the Mississippi constitution by setting up a state referendum, or ballot initiative, that would widen the definition of a person under the state's bill of rights to include a foetus from the day of conception.

Some 70 organisations across America have come together to file testimonies, known as amicus briefs, in support of Gibbs that protest against her treatment on several levels. One says that to treat "as a murderer a girl who has experienced a stillbirth serves only to increase her suffering".

SOURCE

Apparently what is happening is religous zealots who are also politicians and prosecutors and police, people who clearly are supposed to neutrally uphold the law for all citizens, have been using these fetal homicide laws to persecute women in America. The laws are intended for people who attack preganat women and kill their unborn child. Instead, we have these woman hating troglodytes using this law to persecute women who have lost a child on their own.

Abortion is legal in the country, and a day old fetus is not a person, it is a POTENTIAL person. This is a very nasty and disturbing trend that everyone who values their freedom of choice or their loved ones freedom of choice needs to be aware of. There is a huge difference in assaulting a pregnant woman and taking the life of her unborn child, and a miscarriage. What this trend is doing is criminalizing women who lose a baby!

From the same article:

Perhaps the most persuasive argument put forward in the amicus briefs is that if such prosecutions were designed to protect the unborn child, then they would be utterly counter-productive: "Prosecuting women and girls for continuing [a pregnancy] to term despite a drug addiction encourages them to terminate wanted pregnancies to avoid criminal penalties. The state could not have intended this result when it adopted the homicide statute."

That's our lawmakers and politicians for you.

Here is a link to the states with fetal homicide laws.

Currently, at least 38 states have fetal homicide laws. The states include: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin. At least 21 states have fetal homicide laws that apply to the earliest stages of pregnancy ("any state of gestation," "conception," "fertilization" or "post-fertilization"); these are indicated below with an asterisk (*).

Of course my state has this law, which means it is only a matter of time before some innocent women are railroaded into prison for a murder they are not guilty of. The following website is National Advocates for Pregnant Women. What a shame we need an organization for this! But thank goodness women have this resource.

SOURCE

From the above source:

In the name of fetal rights and under the guise of the war on drugs, hundreds of women have been arrested for being pregnant and continuing to term in spite of a drug or alcohol problem. One state, South Carolina, by judicial fiat has declared that viable fetuses are legal persons and that pregnant women who use illegal drugs or engage in any other behavior that jeopardizes the fetus can be prosecuted as a child abusers or murders. Indeed, the arrest of pregnant women is not limited to those using illegal drugs. In Utah, a woman was charged with murder based on the claim that she caused a stillbirth by refusing to have a c-section earlier in her pregnancy. These arrests are taking place in spite of the lack of authorizing legislation and in spite of overwhelming opposition from medical, public health and child welfare organizations.

While hundreds of women have been arrested, thousands more have been subjected to punitive and counterproductive child welfare interventions that treat what women do or experience during pregnancy as evidence of civil child neglect or abuse. An increasing number of states are using a single, unconfirmed, positive drug test on a new mother or baby as a basis for involving child welfare authorities. In some cases resulting in the removal of the newborn from family custody. Women who have tested positive for drugs administered during labor, women in federally approved methadone treatment programs, and women whose drug use in no way compromises their parenting ability have had their children taken from them.

These punitive responses are taking place in a context in which women often have little or no access to appropriate family drug treatment. The National Association for Addiction Professionals begins one of its briefing papers by stating: “Women are second-class citizens when it come to treatment for drug addiction and alcoholism.” Not only are women denied access to this health care, they are then punished for having a disease for which they cannot get treatment.

This source seems to bottom line it, and as is the case in Corporate United States, MONEY is the bottom line, folks, money off the backs of poor women. Great scheme to go ahead and get the mother AND child into the system from the get go isn't it?

The article also points out the cruel irony of these grey area fetal homicide laws, and that is if the trend continues, more mothers will begin choosing abortion rather than risk going to jail because they cannot kick their addiction, and they have little resources to do so. An abortion is cheaper than rehab, and better than jail, isn't it? That is some damn stright irony, and while I love irony, this is one instance I find it revolting.

This is just one more example of the conspiracy against women in our world, this time not in the Middle East but our own back yard.

THIS is why I call myself a feminist, and it is a current example of why feminism is still greatly needed in our world.

www.ncsl.org...

Here are the current states fetal homicide laws...

While this is really out of my area I am just trying to take this in for a second...

I understand the point your trying to make. I just wanted to point a few of my own out.

1) While pro choice or pro life either way I think the primary reasoning for the law is if another person ends up killing your unborn child in an intentional or reckless way.

2) Abortion, if your for it or against it, is probably alittle more humaine then slowly killing your fetus by doing drugs or what not.

Your take on this?

If you don't consider a fetus a person than it's ok for a doctor to accidentally inject a fetus with something like iodine and potentially kill it? Well it's not alive right? So nothing got killed?

See this line of logic confuses me because a fetus has a unique DNA code different from the mother's so it's clear it's a individual unique person from day one. This is basic science fact.

I think an accidental miscarriage due to poor behavior is punishment enough in itself however, and see no need for government intervention at all. Nature has it's own checks and balances.

So 1) The Government has no authority in this matter as Nature is it's own authority and balances itself.

and 2) A fetus is still a unique person because it has a unique DNA code, can be killed, and if it were wrongfully removed and destroyed you would call it murder.

reply to post by hotbakedtater

a day old fetus is not a person, it is a POTENTIAL person.

Where did you get this idea, ma'am? Can you please elaborate on this?

Do you know why abortion became illegal in the first place?

Because it was conducted by midwives primarily throughout our history prior to 100 years ago. And it was quite a widespread practice as well.

However the AMA (American Medical Association) argued that it was far too dangerous and convinced the legislation to pass laws in almost every state banning unlicensed abortions.

The strongest force behind the drive to criminalize abortion was the attempt by doctors to establish for themselves exclusive rights to practice medicine. They wanted to prevent "untrained" practitioners, including midwives, apothecaries, and homeopaths, from competing with them for patients and for patient fees.The best way to accomplish their goal was to eliminate one of the principle procedures that kept these competitors in business. Rather than openly admitting to such motivations, the newly formed American Medical Association (AMA) argued that abortion was both immoral and dangerous. By 1910 all but one state had criminalized abortion except where necessary, in a doctor's judgment, to save the woman's life. In this way, legal abortion was successfully transformed into a "physicians-only" practice.

Abortion History - Link

Look, the entire Pro-Life vs Pro-Choice argument is totally out of context.

The true fact of the matter is that it was only illegal in the first place because of the AMA's power grab efforts. They wanted more money, more authority, and more power.

And TPTB saw it as the perfect opportunity to take RIGHTS away from citizens, yet again. But this happened over 100 years ago....

The hypocrisy is nauseating to many no doubt, perhaps only an Abortion clinic has the right to kill?
I mean if women went around miscarrying it would be mean fewer fetuses for the Clinics to kill , and ie less money ,less profit?

No we must allow the qualified to terminate a pregnancy , after all this is a SANE WORLD...right?

So my ultimate position is Pro-Freedom. No surprise.

My solution to the problem is education. If people are educated with good information and granted dignity and were proud of themselves, than you wouldn't be seeing unwanted pregnancies in the first place.

In that world abortion would only be a medical necessity in certain cases.

In that world cosmetic abortion would never happen, because it would be considered ill-dignified by those very people who today may be having them.

The only reason these endless silly debates full of misinformation and fake 'facts' happen all the time is because we do not know our true history, and we are not free at all.

If we actually knew our history and were free, abortion wouldn't even be a topic worth debating.

I guess I'll be going to jail when I'm older, my family's history of miscarriages is strong

Originally posted by Dr Expired
The hypocrisy is nauseating to many no doubt, perhaps only an Abortion clinic has the right to kill?
I mean if women went around miscarrying it would be mean fewer fetuses for the Clinics to kill , and ie less money ,less profit?

No we must allow the qualified to terminate a pregnancy , after all this is a SANE WORLD...right?

Correct.

The government claimed it had power to take our rights away.

The AMA lobbied for the right to kill which was 'in the air'.

And they won our rights from us.

And we did nothing to overturn or stop this insanity.

Because we are asleep. Comatose.

This is about Human Rights and how the Government tramples them in the name of big $$$.

That's why today, people are not allowed to commit suicide. It's illegal!
People cannot self-medicate in many many cases.
And people are FORCED to take all kinds of nasty medications when they are locked up. (When half of the time these medications are already found to be dangerous and are obsolete).

Just a couple more links to add to this subject.

The first regards myths surrounding pregnant women and drug use:

SOURCE

A 2009 New York Times article tried to set the record straight by reporting that while researchers have found some effects of prenatal exposure to coc aine, those “effects are less severe than those of alcohol and are comparable to those of tobacco—two legal substances that are used much more often by pregnant women, despite health warnings.”[ii] Indeed, the most careful and comprehensive study to consider the medical evidence concluded: “[T]here is no convincing evidence that prenatal coc aine exposure is associated with any developmental toxicity difference in severity, scope, or kind from the sequelae of many other risk factors.”[iii] Without knowing that coc aine was used by their mothers, clinicians could not distinguish so-called “crack-addicted babies” from babies born to comparable mothers who had never used coc aine.[iv]

Other drugs including meth and opiates are discussed at this link. When my mother was pregnant with my borther, she said her doctor prescibed her amphetamines for weight control during her pregancy. This was common in those days (sixties/early seventies). My brother is currently a doctor, he made his way through school with a 4.0 average. My how times have changed.



The following source discusses a very current case in MISS. regarding personhood:

SOURCE

JACKSON, Mississippi: The fight in the state’s high court has begun, as opponents of Initiative 26 – the proposed personhood amendment – attempt to strip the measure of ballot access and keep it away from voters during the 2011 general election.

The Mississippi Supreme Court is expected to hear arguments from Liberty Counsel, who will defend Personhood Mississippi, organizers of the initiative drive to place the measure on the ballot, and Mississippi Secretary of State Delbert Hosemann. The arguments will be against the lawsuit filed by the ACLU, Planned Parenthood, and the Center for Reproductive Rights. The lawsuit was filed on the basis that the Bill of Rights would be changed by the measure, which is not allowed by citizens’ initiative.[1]

SOURCE

A Life Begins at the Moment of Fertilization Amendment will appear on the November 8, 2011 general election ballot in the state of Mississippi as an indirect initiated constitutional amendment. State election officials have numbered the proposal as Initiative 26. The measure proposes adding language to the Mississippi Constitution that declares that life begins at "the moment of fertilization."[1]

On April 1, 2010 Secretary of State Delbert Hosemann said his office certified 106,325 signatures, exceeding the minimum requirement of 89,285 signatures to qualify for the ballot. Currently, the state requires a 24-hour waiting period and counseling before all abortions and minors are required to have both parents' consent. The state has one abortion clinic.[2][3][2][4]

Text of measure

Text of measure

The proposed measure, also known as Initiative 26, reads:

Should the term 'person' be defined to include every human being from the moment of fertilization, cloning, or the equivalent thereof?

Ballot summary

The official ballot summary of the measure reads:
"Initiative #26 would amend the Mississippi Constitution to define the word 'person' or 'persons', as those terms are used in Article III of the state constitution, to include every human being from the moment of fertilization, cloning, or the functional equivalent thereof."

These type of ballots endanger real people, people who have been born and are walking the earth THIS MOMENT!! It does nothing to protect babies, as a fetus is a POTENTIAL person! How ironic and hypocritical to zealously fight against a HUMAN who is BORN already to protect a POTENTIAL person.

I have always found this obsession with killing the unborn by the medical profession to be curious.
I know they make graves or is that incinerators full of loot, but why the almost rabid efficiency of numbers?
We all know if legal abortion clinics didn't exist that the number of abortions would be greatly reduced, they would not be eliminated to zero but they wouldn't number in the millions.
Christ said "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" would any of them Doctors(sic) want in the next life to be ripped from a spirits physical body that agreed in the spirit world to initillly accept them?

I doubt it , perhaps we need to ask if some of these Docs are sane?
Because the whole act of mass abortion reeks of Nazism and insanity?

reply to post by hotbakedtater


Well smoking cigarettes would never terminate a pregnancy nor would smoking crack or heroin or marijauna for that matter the only thing that really has been proven to cause miscarriage is alcohol so they really will only find alcoholics to prosecute for this.

You are not doing freedom much help by mixing up false with truth though.

A fetus is already existent.

A "Potential" person is like you and Brad Pitt having a kid in 5 years. That's a "potential". It doesn't exist but it might one day.

A real person is when a unique DNA code is created within a cellular structure and replicates. That's a real person that already exists.

----
Point is when you start attempting to use illogical angles to win a debate it screws over the truth and the side that needs to win for things to be better.

We need to stick with "The Government has no authority over my medical treatment." That is probably the best route to win this thing.

---
Is that what you tell yourself when you have Eggs for breakfast?
"These aren't REAL chickens! They are POTENTIAL Chickens!!"


I am sorry I am always so hard on you though, cmon Laugh! It was funny.

Originally posted by Reconer
www.ncsl.org...

Here are the current states fetal homicide laws...

While this is really out of my area I am just trying to take this in for a second...

I understand the point your trying to make. I just wanted to point a few of my own out.

1) While pro choice or pro life either way I think the primary reasoning for the law is if another person ends up killing your unborn child in an intentional or reckless way.

2) Abortion, if your for it or against it, is probably alittle more humaine then slowly killing your fetus by doing drugs or what not.

Your take on this?

You are correct, the primary reason for the laws IS in case someone kills your unborn baby. However, the thing that disturbs me is the religious zealots trying to use this law to in fact punish and persecute women, in the name of a potential person. Humane is subjective. Some babies are born addicted and go on to be normal healthy and productive.

Originally posted by muzzleflash
You are not doing freedom much help by mixing up false with truth though.

A fetus is already existent.

A "Potential" person is like you and Brad Pitt having a kid in 5 years. That's a "potential". It doesn't exist but it might one day.

A real person is when a unique DNA code is created within a cellular structure and replicates. That's a real person that already exists.

----
Point is when you start attempting to use illogical angles to win a debate it screws over the truth and the side that needs to win for things to be better.

We need to stick with "The Government has no authority over my medical treatment." That is probably the best route to win this thing.

---
Is that what you tell yourself when you have Eggs for breakfast?
"These aren't REAL chickens! They are POTENTIAL Chickens!!"

I am sorry I am always so hard on you though, cmon Laugh! It was funny.

Hey I love to make people laugh myself, I hope to do stand up one day! Maybe one day I will incorporate your joke into my set, lol!

I do agtree that we need to stick to keep the government out of our medical treatment, but I also do not want the government in my body either! (oops that has the POTENTIAL to be funny!)

And while a fetus exists once conception occurs, it certainly has no ability to survive outside the womb at that stage, making it a potential person, not a person.

Originally posted by ldyserenity
reply to post by hotbakedtater

 

Well smoking cigarettes would never terminate a pregnancy nor would smoking crack or heroin or marijauna for that matter the only thing that really has been proven to cause miscarriage is alcohol so they really will only find alcoholics to prosecute for this.

edit on 24-6-2011 by ldyserenity because: edit for spelling

Anything I think can cause it, and everyone's bio-chemistry is different slightly.

Sometimes a woman's body will just decide it is not functionally correct to carry the child and will automatically miscarry as a biological chemistry based result. This is merely a theory based on observation and I admit I haven't seen any tests proving it but I would be expecting a result like this to pop up every once in awhile.

Like one fine ATSer posted above, their family has a history of having a higher % rate of miscarries. This can be genetic or environmental or both mixed.

There are potentially thousands of factors to take into account when trying to determine exactly what caused each individual miscarriage as each one will be different.

apparently u don't appreciate the value of human life, let me tell u, the human life begin in the very moment of inception, so u cannot deny that these women who are miscarring their babies and killing them don't commit an act against life itself.

I support the laws punishing women for this type of crimes,

one day u will know that I was right

Without knowing that coc aine was used by their mothers, clinicians could not distinguish so-called “crack-addicted babies” from babies born to comparable mothers who had never used coc aine

I find this quote in one of OP's sources highly suspicious.

I am reluctant to take it at face value.

Originally posted by hotbakedtater

And while a fetus exists once conception occurs, it certainly has no ability to survive outside the womb at that stage, making it a potential person, not a person.

So since a premature baby in a machine is not a real person since it needs the machine to live?

How about a person in a coma for the last 6motnhs? They need machines too.

What about the person who needs an Asthma inhaler to survive? Does one cease to be a real person when they are reliant on other persons or technologies for survival?

In the end, this means that none of us are real people. Because we are all reliant on each other and our technology at some level or another.

It has a DNA code and it is replicating, therefore it is a living organism.

Originally posted by Dr Expired
The hypocrisy is nauseating to many no doubt, perhaps only an Abortion clinic has the right to kill?
I mean if women went around miscarrying it would be mean fewer fetuses for the Clinics to kill , and ie less money ,less profit?

No we must allow the qualified to terminate a pregnancy , after all this is a SANE WORLD...right?

Actually, if you think about what these type of laws will do, you will realize that they will in fact cause the number of abortions to rise, because addicts will choose to terminate rather than risk a zealot tossing them into prison. The reason these types of laws exist is to protect pregnant women from violence, and to give them an avenue to prosecute their attackers. I firmly believe that a woman who CHOOSES to carry to term should have every right to expect justice if someone kills her unborn child that she wanted. But instead of the laws doing so, some prosecutors and politicians are perverting the law to persecute women whose only crime was to miscarry.