Why go through all the trouble?

reply to post by blackrain17


Your making a LOT of assumtions to make your theory look sound.

Why did black boxes even have to be on the planes? If this was planned, would the government not have pulled them first? Bringing buildings down to bury boxes? That doesnt make sense at all. Even if they only hit the buildings, the government clean up crews would have taken the boxes away. No need for them to fall at all.

Trust me. An attack on sovereign American soil, buildings falling or not would have been more than enough justification for Bush and Cheney to do what they wanted to do. Making sure they fall would have been a logistical nightmare that would be completely unnecissary. I think you underestimate American resolve when they are attacked by foreigners. Even without the buildings collapsing, many would have died, and it would have been veiwed as an attack on the state.

If this was planned and Iraq was to be the target, why were Saudis used? Would the US government not have thought it through and at LEAST had one Iraqi? Your arguement does not hold.

reply to post by nightbringr


Let me say that I am in no way intending to offend your beliefs. If I do, please accept my apology.

I will address your last statement first.

Why is it you think that humans, who are so very different and patriotic will suddenly abandon their countries and allegiences and join together? What is the mechanism that you see making this happen?

Considering they intend to DRASTICALLY reduce the worlds population through... what was it that Bill Gates said.... oh, yeah... vaccines... [sorry, another coincidence]

With a reduced population... fearful of the Sun, the Earth, the Economy, Global Climate Change, Starvation, and Disease... we will find unity through our suffering... And as long as the related propaganda is controlled... the world will easily unite under their new masters.

Bill Gates statement is towards the end of this video.


You assume that TPTB will be direct with the public. I don't believe they will be.

A majority of these people have occult backgrounds and practice various forms of ritual magic... even the lowly stage magician depends on distraction, deception, and influence to perform a "trick." The "real" magicians... or so they like to think of themselves... will use the same tactics to perform their "tricks."

That is... distraction, deception, and influence!

To go further, I believe that they will use basic, but effective, psychological manipulations. It's called Good Marketing.

Coke vs. Pepsi..... Republican vs. Democrats... Chevy vs. Ford... Blond vs. Brunette...

Any marketing student can tell you how a colorful, attractive, emotionally driven advertisement, with the proper Research and Development, can trump and influence a consumers choice of product.

[points to Barack Obama's Presidential Campaign]


Government [as a product] is different, only from the stance that it comes PRE-PACKAGED with all the emotions you could ever want to manipulate.

Chances are great that our decedents will be completely unaware that they are in a tightly controlled and well manipulated environment. They will basically do and think whatever their media tells them to do.... much like the modern world. Except the governing forces will be playing God... literally! [which even now given their eugenics agenda is borderline...playing God.]

The internet allows us to come together to discuss such things, ATS being a perfect example. I do not see how a site like ATS would be allowed to run if we were in fact living in the "police state" you are we are living in. I do not see todays people as being more accepting of the "one world government" idea. In fact, i see it much less.

Again, the word "conspiracy" alone, will trigger self-censorship. TPTB, would much rather us use an internet forum to discuss these ideas than by standing in front of public court houses with microphones...

If I were in their shoes, I would love for you to speak freely. I can rest assured that the bulk of the population will accept their programming and self-censor themselves from your "conspiracies." And as an added bonus... I get to track you and come up with more tactics to subvert your opinion.... how 'bout them aliens!

As far as the Police State goes... either you see it or you don't. Tell the kids who were assaulted at the G20 meeting in Toronto that a police state doesn't exist. Or a little closer to home... tell the students of the May 2nd crack down of Western Illinois University, that the police state is non-existent.

But chances are you've never heard of these events [based on your arguments]

As for my age... it is irrelevant. I am old enough to know better and educated enough to be concerned.

Thank you for the debate. I know I will in no way change your opinion... but it benefits the others I am trying to "brainwash."

Originally posted by nightbringr
reply to post by blackrain17

 

Your making a LOT of assumtions to make your theory look sound.

Why did black boxes even have to be on the planes? If this was planned, would the government not have pulled them first? Bringing buildings down to bury boxes? That doesnt make sense at all. Even if they only hit the buildings, the government clean up crews would have taken the boxes away. No need for them to fall at all.

Trust me. An attack on sovereign American soil, buildings falling or not would have been more than enough justification for Bush and Cheney to do what they wanted to do. Making sure they fall would have been a logistical nightmare that would be completely unnecissary. I think you underestimate American resolve when they are attacked by foreigners. Even without the buildings collapsing, many would have died, and it would have been veiwed as an attack on the state.

If this was planned and Iraq was to be the target, why were Saudis used? Would the US government not have thought it through and at LEAST had one Iraqi? Your arguement does not hold.

Black boxes are virtually indestructable. Planes crashing into building won't destroy it. The government clean up crew did take the boxes away. But it would be hard without the buildings collapsing.

Do you think an average Amercans can tell the difference between an Iraqi and a Saudi? They all look similar don't they?

Originally posted by canselmi
So, why go through all the trouble?

To create an event that would stick in peoples' minds. We have had '911' thrust into our ears for years.
Have a think about it. It was a visually symbolic event, in my opinion.

st.

I believe the 911 Ritual was much more esoteric than we know. This video may answer some questions. The video author has many videos proving this was a ritual to bring in the NWO by GW Bush. GHW Bush announced the NWO exactly 11 years earlier. This has been in play since the beginning. We only know what we are told. That is not much. We have no idea why we are living in this time. Things may seem Evil but there is always light at the end. Please think positive.

Originally posted by canselmi

Originally posted by LargeFries
reply to post by canselmi

 

please wake up and smell the coffee. governments everywhere are horribly corrupt.

Don't get me wrong, I sincerely believe our government is corrupt. And I see the 'benefits" (from the gov's eyes) of martial law and all of the other results of the attack. There is no denying that our government "benefitted" (in furthering their agenda) from 9/11.

I just don't believe they would go through the incomprehensible tediousness of planning the attack down to the details that some theories put forward.
And that was really the question I was trying to ask. Keeping with my previous example, why go through the trouble (and risk of being exposed) of preparing a script for reporters to read, when just letting reporters do their thing would have been sufficient?

don't lose sight of the haystack for want of a lost piece of straw. the Bldg 7 news reporter error was just that. the news crews were on the spot, they were dug in at the site one of the largest news pieces in US history. their eyes and ears were open. all around them were emergency personnel and officials of all sorts. it was decided by officials to down that building for safety's sake. an overzealous news crew wanted to 'scoop' other news stations with a big update but instead made asses of themselves. they put the cart before the horse. the point is moot re: bldg 7.

as for planning a event, if i had everything i wanted at my disposal (because the US taxpayer suckers flip the bill) i too would have everything planned down to the last detail. why do something half-assed? this was a major turning point in American history. they were selling the grand illusion and they had but 1 opportunity to get it right.

we are speaking of people who are from long lines of wealth and power. they don't attend public schools. they don't shop at Wal-Mart. they don't eat McDonald's. they don't watch NASCAR. these people were studying Sun Tzu's 'The Art of War' and engaging in debate over their favorite Greek philosophers when the rest of us were playing sandlot baseball. their lineage has nothing in common with our own.

the devil is in the details and these maniacs leave nothing to chance. they play the game to win. they not only own the baseball and the bat, their daddies paid for the gloves, uniforms, and their grandfathers own the ball park. they didn't get what they have by being sweet, kind and charitable. the lives of others means nothing to their ilk.

our government only 'cheaps out' when it comes to kicking back our tax dollars for the little people to benefit by. otherwise, its spend spend spend, the sky is the limit. it's all funny money anyway. our currency hasn't been backed by anything for a very long time and the Fed Res has those sweet printing presses humming around the clock.

reply to post by canselmi


not only was 9/11 a conspiracy but the truthers are a conspiracy as well
these guys are experts at mind control and 99% of the sheep eat it up.

reply to post by blackrain17


Then tell me why they simply would not remove them beforehand? Seems a LOT simpler thing to do than make sure the buildings come down, just to dig up the boxes.

Occams razor, my friend.

reply to post by Areveli


All fair. I still see Bill Gates's philantropy as his way of saying to the world "Hey! I might be one of the richest men in the world, but im a good guy! (buy microsoft).

Vaccinating children around the world is a great way to get his name and by default, microsofts name passed around not just locally, but in emerging markets where more and more people are becoming "wired" into the internet.

I dont buy the whole depopulation by vaccine thing. Didnt we go through this a couple years ago with the H1N1 vaccine? I remember post after post on ATS about how we should not take it, we will all die. Two years have passed and people are still alive and fertile.

I agree! Good debate! I doubt we will see eye to eye on this, but i enjoy the discussion! Not much time at the moment to post but hopefully in a few hours ill contribute somthing more substantial. Till then!

reply to post by nightbringr


You are assuming everything happening exactly as planned. What if the planes missed the target and crashed somewhere else? Hmmmmm... Planes without black boxes. Isn't that suspicious. Hindsite is 20/20...

reply to post by canselmi



Shock and awe oké.

No second needed.

reply to post by canselmi


If this doesn't convince you that 9/11 was an inside job, then your head must be deep in the sand:

--The pilot that supposedly crashed the plane into the Pentagon only had one previous flying lesson in a single engine plane prior to his hijacking, yet he managed to pull off a 330+ degree turn in a Boeing 747, which even for experienced pilots is fairly difficult. On top of that, he happened to crash into the area of the Pentagon which was undergoing "renovations". Lucky shot I guess.

--Building 7 collapsed at free fall speed due to some minor fires inside, that is physically impossible without the use of controlled explosives. Dozens if not hundreds of engineers unanimously agree that the video of tower 7 falling is clear-cut evidence of a conrolled demolition. When you consider that there have been many more severe fires which didn't make the building collapse, and also the buildings around the two main towers suffered WAY more damage from falling debris yet didn't come close to collapsing, that points to controlled demolition and nothing else.

--Samples of the rubble from the main towers found nanothermite(?), which are used in controlled demolitions.

--People who were near or inside of the main towers just as they collapsed reported hearing systematic explosions, which is consistent with a controlled demolition. On top of that, while the towers were falling video evidence clearly shows plumes of pulverized concrete being symmetrically ejected from the building, which also screams controlled demolition.

--The plane that crashed in Shanksville, Pennsylvania had no visible debris larger than a few feet, and there were absolutely no body parts or evidence of people near the crash site. Any other plane crash would leave large debris and body parts all around the crash site, however this one did not, just a few parts of the plane which easily could have been scattered around prior to the "plane crash". Thailand plane crash. China plane crash. Another plane crash . Korean plane crash. And then here's the Shanksville "plane crash" site

There is much more evidence, but I just haven't researched this subject in a while or watched any documentaries over it lately, so I'm a little rusty.

Originally posted by blackrain17
reply to post by nightbringr

 

You are assuming everything happening exactly as planned. What if the planes missed the target and crashed somewhere else? Hmmmmm... Planes without black boxes. Isn't that suspicious. Hindsite is 20/20...

Wouldnt have mattered. The government simply would have declared a national emergency and the crash sites crime scenes. Who would wander up to the crashed planes and start picking through the wreckage hoping to find a black box? No one, because they know damn well the government would prosecute them for tampering with a crime scene.

In any case, the government would be at the crash sites within the hour and have it blocked off. I state again that if the government planned it, there never would have been black boxes in the first place.

Hindsight is indeed 20/20.

reply to post by nightbringr


I view a lot of this material with a careful eye and hold NOTHING as truth. In the end... the victors of this war will rewrite history as they see fit.

As someone who has studied propaganda both from an academic stand point, as well as a hobby; I see a lot of tell-tell signs of manipulation regarding the events of 9/11. Hence my stance for defending the Truth Movement.

We can easily get lost in the "actual debate of facts"... but when has this ever really worked? People will always believe what they WANT to believe.

We can please our egos by spouting facts and figures, but let's face it... the average person will not accept information that is counter to what they believe. Trying convincing a Democrat or a Republican to change views. If they are die-hard with their beliefs... you will get nowhere!

From my standpoint, I understand the psychology of the elites, I have studied a great deal of their personal history... mostly through books which they have written. I have spent ten years trying to figure out a way to let the masses know they are asleep at the wheel... our Government is illegitimate... and we are being robbed blind!

What have I learned in the process?
There is no bottom to the rabbit hole.
All things are connected.
Our emotions are being used against us.
Our currency is being destroyed.
The world is being manipulated with fear.
Media is being used as a weapon.
And TPTB are trying to convince the world... the end is near.

Instead of feeling helpless, I choose to use my voice to alert others of what is coming.
Even if it costs me my friends, my family, or my life.

It has been a dream of many to create Plato's Republic... I would rather take back the one we had.

... peacefully of course.

I came to ATS specifically because I feel there is a 9/11 conspiracy and from early on (look at my old posts) I was active in the 9/11 debate catching up. I admit I accepted the official story and subsequent 9/11 commission report as fact.

The problem is the more I learnt about the run up to 9/11, the day itself and the subsequent actions the more suspicious I got. In my mind there is no question whatsoever that this was setup to 'kill many birds with one stone'.

The loss of life at the twin towers was tragic don't get me wrong but weigh up the cost of war, how many innocent lives are lost in Iraq as innocent people were gunned down / or blown up as collateral, not to mention our own soldiers who are killed fighting a war I still don't understand.

Some of the facts speak for themselves when you look at the feasibility of the buildings long-term viability, the fact they had recently been re-insured to cover terrorist acts, the fact the buildings had been closed for new security system installation, unprecedented in the building’s history, the fact that a war was started from 9/11 and the fact that so many freedom restricting acts were ‘rushed’ out including the Terrorist Act – this is only a few of the facts .. not speculation but fact.

There are plenty of posts on ATS that discuss the how and why because that is simply logistics, things did go wrong – the fire’s weren’t supposed to be extinguished, Ladder 15 probably sealed the fate of the building collapse whilst occupants and fire crews were still in there (god rest their souls);

Battalion 7 Chief: "Battalion 7 .... Ladder 15, we've got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines. Radio that, 78th floor numerous 10-45 code ones."

www.youtube.com...

reply to post by canselmi
I read that the twin towers needed to come down anyway because of all the asbestos in them,too costly to do a demolition so Mr Silverstien being the good businessman he is had great insurance on the towers and "walla"!towers are down and he made money in the process.Don't you know how these things work?

reply to post by Areveli


I think one thing to remember is that even if Bush/Cheney, the PTB, or whoever may be behind the scenes did not orchestrate 9/11, it certainly worked in that particular administrations favor.

I dont see the conspiracy running any deeper than that. I see Cheney seeing a huge opportunity for his friends and himself at Halliburton. What better way to send stock values through the roof than destroy a country, then sending your company over to rebuild. This and of course all the military contractors, construction companies and so on that lobby the government. Many people profited, and Bush/Cheney are at the top of the list.

I believe the reason you see the propaganda you do is simply because it is what is it. Propaganda. Of course Bush and Obama want you to believe it was a just war. Why would they want their citizens thinking anything else? Propaganda might sway public opinion in favor of the war, perhaps pushing G.W.B. into a second term, and thats exactly what it did.

Obama would be no different. The administrations will always want the people thinking what they are doing is in everyone best interests.

Peace!

Originally posted by nightbringr

Originally posted by blackrain17
reply to post by nightbringr

 

You are assuming everything happening exactly as planned. What if the planes missed the target and crashed somewhere else? Hmmmmm... Planes without black boxes. Isn't that suspicious. Hindsite is 20/20...

Wouldnt have mattered. The government simply would have declared a national emergency and the crash sites crime scenes. Who would wander up to the crashed planes and start picking through the wreckage hoping to find a black box? No one, because they know damn well the government would prosecute them for tampering with a crime scene.

In any case, the government would be at the crash sites within the hour and have it blocked off. I state again that if the government planned it, there never would have been black boxes in the first place.

Hindsight is indeed 20/20.

edit on 17-6-2011 by nightbringr because: (no reason given)

Wouldn't have mattered? Well I stopped there...

Follow the money. There are three major players in 9-11. Larry Silverstein, Dov Zacheim and Dick Cheney. LS bought the twin towers for approx. 120 million down and financed the rest. He insured the twin towers for [reportedly] 10 billion with a rider on the policy for terrorist attacks.
LS eventually received, according to different accounts, between 3 to 6 billion from the insurance plus what was looted from the twin towers vaults.

DZ had just left the Pentagon with a reported 2.8 trillion. He owned a company that took old 737's and made remote control drones out of them as well as obsolete military planes like Douglas B-66's. Amazingly, the drone hit the very part of the pentagon that was instrumental in investigating the disappearance of the 2.8 billion. BTW, the only airplane parts found were from 737s, engines, instrumentation, etc.

Dick Cheney was bought and paid for and with his help, the US Air Force was stood down long enough to facilitate the two crashes as well as the pentagon crash. The fourth plane (drone) to crash was either intentionally crashed (Flt. 93) or was shot down by a Michigan Air Guard F-16 depending on differing reports. Either way, alledgedly, it was determined that it would not make its intended target - the White House, and was destroyed probably because the Secret Service wouldn't let DC leave.

The money, precious metals, bonds, and everything else of value looted from the twin towers went to Israel, which has no extradition treaty with the US of any kind. All evidence of DZ's looting was destroyed at the pentagon.

There are links all over ATS and the internet that anyone with half a brain can access if they want to so none are included here.

Originally posted by NightFlight
Follow the money. There are three major players in 9-11. Larry Silverstein, Dov Zacheim and Dick Cheney. LS bought the twin towers for approx. 120 million down and financed the rest. He insured the twin towers for [reportedly] 10 billion with a rider on the policy for terrorist attacks.
LS eventually received, according to different accounts, between 3 to 6 billion from the insurance plus what was looted from the twin towers vaults.

DZ had just left the Pentagon with a reported 2.8 trillion. He owned a company that took old 737's and made remote control drones out of them as well as obsolete military planes like Douglas B-66's. Amazingly, the drone hit the very part of the pentagon that was instrumental in investigating the disappearance of the 2.8 billion. BTW, the only airplane parts found were from 737s, engines, instrumentation, etc.

Dick Cheney was bought and paid for and with his help, the US Air Force was stood down long enough to facilitate the two crashes as well as the pentagon crash. The fourth plane (drone) to crash was either intentionally crashed (Flt. 93) or was shot down by a Michigan Air Guard F-16 depending on differing reports. Either way, alledgedly, it was determined that it would not make its intended target - the White House, and was destroyed probably because the Secret Service wouldn't let DC leave.

The money, precious metals, bonds, and everything else of value looted from the twin towers went to Israel, which has no extradition treaty with the US of any kind. All evidence of DZ's looting was destroyed at the pentagon.

There are links all over ATS and the internet that anyone with half a brain can access if they want to so none are included here.

Yeah, but don't forget about the Enron scandal, many people in very high places and the Bush administration were connected to Enron and made the whole Enron scam possible from the beginning - and the whole investigation of the Enron scam, and many more similar investigations about other corporations (where many of the same people were involved), suddenly diappeared with WTC7