What is the Penalty?

Originally posted by NeonHelmet
But you want us to take you serious when you write things like �freemasons are good people� �freemasons is just a group that comes together to drink beer and talk about god� but you don�t take us serious, so why should we return it?

Taking each other seriously is a key point; what can and cannot be taken seriously? All we have to do is look at the situation, and apply logic.

There are quite a number of active Masons who post here, and I'd be willing to bet they know what they do in their spare time. I attend an average of two Masonic meetings per week, whether it Blue Lodge, Scottish or York Rite, Shrine, A.M.D, or whatever. I have served as presiding officer in most of these organizations, and continue to serve on boards, committees, etc. As such, I'm very well acquainted with what "goes on" in Masonry, and have myself participated in setting agendas many times. I believe we could hear similar testimony from most of the other Brothers here.

That being the case, I think it's pretty safe to take someone seriously who has experience and speaks seriously. If I say I went to the Shrine Club last night and had a beer with a couple of good guys, it can be taken seriously because the claim is not absurdly outrageous, and I write such a thing from experience.

But when a non-Mason who starts ranting about satanism and being drugged by benzedrine comes on the scene, it's difficult to take such thing seriously for the same reasons. Such people have no personal experience in Masonry, and their claims are too bizarre to be accepted at face value by all but the most naive and gullible of non-Masons.

Fiat Lvx.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by NeonHelmet
But you want us to take you serious when you write things like �freemasons are good people� �freemasons is just a group that comes together to drink beer and talk about god� but you don�t take us serious, so why should we return it?

Taking each other seriously is a key point; what can and cannot be taken seriously? All we have to do is look at the situation, and apply logic.
There are quite a number of active Masons who post here, and I'd be willing to bet they know what they do in their spare time. I attend an average of two Masonic meetings per week, whether it Blue Lodge, Scottish or York Rite, Shrine, A.M.D, or whatever. I have served as presiding officer in most of these organizations, and continue to serve on boards, committees, etc. As such, I'm very well acquainted with what "goes on" in Masonry, and have myself participated in setting agendas many times. I believe we could hear similar testimony from most of the other Brothers here.
That being the case, I think it's pretty safe to take someone seriously who has experience and speaks seriously. If I say I went to the Shrine Club last night and had a beer with a couple of good guys, it can be taken seriously because the claim is not absurdly outrageous, and I write such a thing from experience.
But when a non-Mason who starts ranting about satanism and being drugged by benzedrine comes on the scene, it's difficult to take such thing seriously for the same reasons. Such people have no personal experience in Masonry, and their claims are too bizarre to be accepted at face value by all but the most naive and gullible of non-Masons.
Fiat Lvx.

ML,

I can pretty much "ditto" what you said. Excellent post! I am truly at a loss to figure out why any of us waste our time responding to people like Necros. He (and the trolls like him) will never change, so what's the point.

We (those of us who ARE Masons) and several intelligent folks who aren't DO know what goes on and what does NOT go on in Masonry. In reality it (Masonry) has no reason to be discussed on this forum at all since it doesn't fit the category of a conspiracy group. It's sad that it continues to BE discussed. Particularly with the likes of Necros posting their absurdities.

Sure seems like a waste of time to me.

Next thing you know someone will be vandalizing NEcros' toilet again.

Neon, see my last post.

All that really matters in this WHOLE debate is what I will become while it rages on: a Mason.

Once I join these good people officially, all of this innuendo, these rumours, allegations, accusations, shaky theories, will not mean very much to me. I'll still be reading them, though, just to check out what the latest vibrations are.

Further, anti-masonic posts and conspiracy-related ephemera is no reason for anyone to worry, whether they like the Masons or not. It's just a discussion, in the end. In fact, as we debate here and throw "evidence" and ideas back and forth, masonry is growing. In recent years it has experienced a surge, mostly driven by new, younger blood. There were plenty of interested and enthusiastic people at today's open house - the second one in two weeks.. That's the reailty, it would seem.

[edit on 29-8-2004 by LTD602]

Got to say this mod�s when you slap you do it good. Hit me baby one more time uuh I like it, again uuuh, again uhihahiha

Well I guess it was deserved I did flame you pretty hard in that last post.
I think it�s a good thing, haven�t been so insulted before on an online forum, you know where it really vibrate in your bones/muscles and all that anger well I have to went it some were, and I don�t think it seems fair that I do to my son or wife because some soon to become mason or mason ticks me off, so totally deserved the slap there.
Also want to say this I mean it, I call it intellectual stimulation never achieved it on another forum, so thumbs up ATS, you bring my fetish to me.
Now with out flaming I will try to explain what my message was supposed to look like and I will answer your replies and perhaps a little �I am sorry� will come but who knows you will have to wait and see.

Now this is theory, I do believe you to be just above the slaves of this world, but not in control at least not till you get to the illuminated masonry, I also believe you serve the purpose of holding them in check so they wont reach that certain �wavelength�.
I don�t believe you know what goes on in the higher hierarchy of masonry, now I also believe what you say is your truth, you believe is so.
I do think we should take each other seriously but with all the name calling it is sometimes hard to see.(which goes both ways)
I don�t believe that you are in control of this world and also that your "masters" don�t have complete control but influence to some point at least.
I also think that to some extend you are mind controlled in the sense that they control the information you get.
Now isn�t ignoring some one to accept ignorance?
And final, that you don�t know the men in power not at a personal and trusted level.

Now if I had just posted this I don�t think I would have been warned!
Still not completely sure why I got warned but I believe it was the tone of the post, and perhaps the **** machine part but I am not sure but I do know it was deserved.

Masonic Light I really don�t like you, you don�t say one thing I can make an argument against and I dislike you for that, well the �don�t like� part is a joke. But I think you know what I mean you are good and very understanding in your post, you are a shining light for all posters on this forum to strive at, I don�t know how you do it though. And I don�t defend MrNecros I defend the people I care about on this forum I don�t know MrNecros and to be honest I don�t like he�s site, it was the first I stumbled across on my long search* for the not so good things in masonry, and the first I left.

*internet search


Well Theron only one thing for you, masons are listed as a topic to be discussed in this forum.


LTD perhaps you are right and masonry is changing I DON�T KNOW!
But I think that some of my theories and beliefs conflict in such a manner with free masons that I will never have the privilege to know the masons from the inside, so I will just lure in the dark, gathering all the information I come across process it, put the crap in the basket and do it all over again.


Now here comes the hard part, sorry for the tone of my last post, I think I reacted as I did because of the way you put all of us in one basket (dang this sound familiar), we anti masons are all loonies etc.
Now that is no excuse to the way I reacted, I only wish that I had the insight and control that Masonic light seems to posses.
The point I am trying to make, is one that hit me while I wrote this it goes both ways, I have put all masons in one basket at least in my statements not in my mind, and perhaps if you will admit to this, so have you.
So I will drop my anger outburst against you, any ways my anger isn�t meant for you, so I am feeding the energies I am fighting which seems kind of stupid to me.

I am sorry and I apologize for my behavior not just in the last post but in all my previous anger outburst I have aimed against the masons on this board.

I will take all the blame for this, though I hope some of you will help me carry this burden.

Baron Bilbo Baggins
Son of Balder
Conqueror of Helgardh
Bilbo's Empire of the Neutral Zone


Ps: if the mod who warned me will u2u me with the exact reason for my warn I would be glad, and perhaps learn more from it!

[edit on 29-8-2004 by NeonHelmet]

Look, the only reason I waste time with the konspiracy kooks and the antimasonic loonies is that I am not going to allow my fraternity to be defined by the nutballs and religious zealots in the world. If I do not reply to set the record straight, people with no facts and nothing but hate in their hearts will define masonry for those that do not know any better.

We have made a mistake for fifty years, ignoring these chattering naybobs of negativity, because if the uninformed hear or read nothing but that chattering nonsense, they will only know the lies. It is therefore incumbent upon us, who know the real truth, to not only reply to those lies posted by the ignorant, paranoid, hateful and zealot, but to also take a hand in showing what the truth about masonry is, and the growing number of promasonic sites on the internet is proof of the success of those efforts.

Sites like www.masonicinfo.com
www.mason-defender.net...
www.thelodgeroom.com...

and many many others amply demonstrates that we do have a voice, and that many of us take on the obligation to spread the truth. The lies and paranoia of these FEW that dislike masonry are weakening in the face of the truth, though they like to think otherwise, the plain facts refute them. I am seeing a growing number of young men joining the fraternity, and a larger number of people recognizing the square and compass and asking good, honest questions.

The light always wins, but it takes the efforts of good men to make it happen. Remember, all it takes for the evil in the world to succeed is for men of goodwill and honor (masonry) to do nothing. It is incumbent upon us, therefore, to refute these folks, and g-d bless all the masons that take the time to do so.

Theron:

Meh . . . . the attacks against masonry won't stop. Tell anyone that you've got some guys behind closed doors, some of them perhaps wealthy or well-connected, wearing ceremonial robes, who can't say such and such outside the Lodge, and you've got conspiracy theorists knocking on your door the next day. The only way you'll NOT have loonies etc. define masonry is by opening it up to everyone, revealing all the secrets, and basically turning it into a boyscouts for grownups.

I really don't feel it's incumbent upon Masons to defend the faith. The more you speak up, the more deeply you sink into endless arguments and debates, many of which turn into useless flamefests. You end up going to bed pissed. Actually, I'll be so bold as to suggest that Masonry can do quite well without any defnse, thank you. It doesn't need any defense at all - never did. It will always have its membership, which is now becoming stronger. In fact, all the conspiracy theories and wild accusations simply get potential Masons even more interested, so they end up joining just to find out what's really going on.

In fact, you might have our friend Bilbo to thank. Who knows how many future masons he's responsible for? Who knows how many inititates he's inspired? He's free advertising (no offense, Bilbo, but you have to admit that you migt just be helping.) The more accusations there are against masonry, especially the ones that allege aliens, mind-control, and illuminati-status, the more "sex-appeal" there is, and hence, the more INTEREST. I must confess that my interest at least in part, has been fueled by exactly this kind of fantasy. Of course, I know the truth now, but what do you think got the ball rolling with that first e-mail I sent to my local lodge?

Why do you think there were so many people at the open house at my local lodge? They, too, thanks to all the juicy and exciting theories, the very stuff that Mr.Necros goes on about and some of the things that Bilbo mentions, and BOOM: they became VERY interested to learn more and find out the truth. So they want to join. They learned the truth, obviously, but THEY STAYED and many are joining. I'm well on my way and happy to know the truth, to have met some great people that will be lifelong friends and to learn the rituals with them. All thanks to Satanicmasons.org or Masoniclies.com. Welcome to the internet.

So, maybe all the craziness and speculation is fuelling just the kind of sex-appeal that can actually help with an important goal: more Masons.

??

[edit on 29-8-2004 by LTD602]

I know what you mean, but I am not trying to convert bilbo or dilbert of Detective Perez or MrNecros... I am speaking to the folks that know nothing about masonry. I don't care about the konspiracy kooks. However, I will tell you that I have been responsble for over two score men JOINING the fraternity that I know of, and I have no way of knowing how many I have positively influenced that joined without ever telling me.

I have handed out at least one petition per week for the last couple of years, and directed a number of good men to local lodges after they expressed interest in joining. We have seen some on this forum, who started out opposed to Masonry, and after "knowing" us and coming to know us and what Masonry is about, have decided to join. Frankly, those opposed to Masonry, like MrNecros, Connie Berry, Duane Washum, Mike Gentry, Willam D. Smith, Neo, St. John the Sublime Reformer, Sam Moser, David Icke and the handful of other hardcore nutcases do more FOR masonry than I could in a hundred years.

Their venom, ire and nuttiness are so clear and present that all it takes is one or two masons refuting and showing the truth to get people with more than two brain cells to rub together to do some more looking. And when they look, they find out we are telling the truth, and the hatemongers like those noted above, are not. We all know the site FW, and its clearly over the top nuttiness... it has caused MANY men to join masonry, because their arguments are so patently silly and over the top, men go looking for the truth, and finding it, join.

No, I believe that it is our duty to reply to these people, to show, if nothing else, that there is a rational, clear, thoughtful, honest alternative to the nuttiness they post. Otherwise, the only voice the curious will hear/see is that of the paranoid haters... and we simply can't let the neonazis of the world prevail in defining us and who we are... and for that reason, I will shout it to the rooftops and over the internet, to refute the ignorance these folks spew.

That IS the purpose of this site, right? Fight Ignorance?

"That IS the purpose of this site, right? Fight Ignorance? "

Hehe . . . touche. It certainly is the purpose of this site. To be fair, I did base part of my decision to join on the respectability and decency of good Masons like you and others on this site. So, perhaps we need BOTH people like Mr.Necros AND people like yourself, to provide that Fantasy vs. Truth dynamic that gets people interested, but then alleviates their concerns without killing the romance completely. Is this perhaps a symbiotic relationship of sorts?

Damn LTD602 you got me searching and I have found some Danish mason site�s, *LOL* you�re going to laugh at this, in the Danish free mason lodges, subjects like religion and politics cant be discussed with in the lodge and you aren�t asked about were you stand on this subject, i.e. no belief necessary in the great architect.
WOW I found that amazing perhaps this is only the Danish lodge that has that?
And it isn�t called the Danish free masons society but the Danish league of brothers!
Hmm perhaps I have been mistaken all the time, know this isn�t in anyway a step towards the free masons, ( perhaps it is but let me stay in my denial a little longer as I am not ready to come out of it yet).
Their history only goes back to 1894 and it has never been named free masons I find that funny their goal/aim was Brotherhood, fellowship and safety. First it was called Danish worker lodge.
Funny that I never thought of investigating our own masons *LOL* But we only have about 1200 members so it�s not much.

In fact, you might have our friend Bilbo to thank. Who knows how many future masons he's responsible for? Who knows how many initiates he's inspired? He's free advertising (no offense, Bilbo, but you have to admit that you might just be helping.) The more accusations there are against masonry, especially the ones that allege aliens, mind-control, and illuminati-status, the more "sex-appeal" there is, and hence, the more INTEREST. I must confess that my interest at least in part, has been fueled by exactly this kind of fantasy. Of course, I know the truth now, but what do you think got the ball rolling with that first e-mail I sent to my local lodge?

So now I am helping masonry by providing ignorance and stupidity to this forum, nah but LTD602 I know what you mean, and perhaps I am, but I am not close minded, masons wasn�t really my dig I am more to NWO, Bilderberg, league of 300 and illuminati and not to forget 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th density.
Perhaps all the things I have read and all the dots I have connected have been wrong, now please understand and I also think you would question this, I am not making an unconditional surrender here, but I will admit to being wrong in some subjects.


I sincerely hope that we can change our tone towards each other and learn from both sides, refraining from making a stupid remark to protect me if you guys ditch me.

Looking forward to the responses and Sigh�s

Baron Bilbo Baggins
Bilbo's Empire of the Neutral Zone

[edit on 29-8-2004 by NeonHelmet]

Nah . . . no ditching from me. We have discussions, that's pretty much it. Yeah, they get out of hand sometimes, but by the time bedtime rolls around, I let go of the day's frustrations and hope everyone finds some peace of their own, too.

Actually, Bilbo, I kind of like you...

I met many folks like you when I worked in Denmark (I lived at the Hotel Merkur in downtown Kobenhaven for almost two months a few years back) and really enjoyed my stay there.

You have your opinions, but seem willing to look at other facts than those which you arrive bearing... I wish I had been a mason when I visited there, as I would have visited the lodge in Kobenhaven and the one I hear is in Oesterport.

However, I am not sure the group you are referring to are masons... but I could be wrong. Do you have a url?

Originally posted by NeonHelmet
Damn LTD602 you got me searching and I have found some Danish mason site?s, *LOL* you?re going to laugh at this, in the Danish free mason lodges, subjects like religion and politics cant be discussed with in the lodge and you aren?t asked about were you stand on this subject, i.e. no belief necessary in the great architect.
WOW I found that amazing perhaps this is only the Danish lodge that has that?
And it isn?t called the Danish free masons society but the Danish league of brothers!

They might not be a "recognised" masonic group. I certainly can't find them anywhere with Google. That doesn't mean their any less relevant but equally it doesn't necessarily mean that they are anything to do with the type of Freemasonry that is normally discussed here.

This might suprise you NH, but all Freemasons are forbidden to discuss religion and politics in Lodge. You are asked once at your interview whether you believe in a Supreme Being and that's it - the subject is never discussed amongst your peers again.

Because we accept men from all religious and political backgrounds we recognise that there may be differences between people on these subjects. We therefore do not discuss them, as we believe that they are personal to each individual.

Not discussing religion or politics - at least not at length, the importance of putting your family and business FIRST, were some of the key points stressed at both open houses I attended. My sponsors also stressed that during my interviews with them.

I like Heon Helmet as well, by the way. I'd prefer dealing/debating with him than with other non-masons, anti-masons, or others who expound on conspiracy theories. He presents some of his stuff is a bit hard to digest, but it's there without fire-breathing and malice.

[edit on 30-8-2004 by LTD602]