Physicist Stephen Hawking denounced for believing...

Originally posted by woodwardjnr

most modern scientists do not believe human beings have free will, a soul, or even anything resembling consciousness.

The problem with religion is it has deceived many into believing they are divine beings constructed in the image of their creator. It's harder to accept what the harsh realities of science say about humans and human nature.

Science can say nothing about the subjective life of man, and it's impact on the outer objective world....

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz
reply to post by liejunkie01

 

no. he has a disability, but if it were hacked, he would realize it and communicate it.

if you have such a severe disability, you either turn to god to find a grand purpose, or decide everything is meaningless. both are coping mechanisms. but personally, i'll side with there being a god.

edit on 12-6-2011 by Bob Sholtz because: edited to be more pc

edit on 12-6-2011 by Bob Sholtz because: (no reason given)

You forget a third way... Realize that meaning is developed from within.... The imagination is great in this respect

Originally posted by lestweforget
How can one man have so much knowledge and so little wisdom?

Hhhmm.. that's not uncommon. Think about it.

I like Stephen Hawking but I'll have to disagree with him based solely on science....and my opinion!

We are electro-chemical beings....energy, really. Everything we do is initiated by energy within the body. Energy can not be destroyed, just changed. So when the physical body dies, the energy goes on.

What happens after that, who knows but I believe this energy is the basis of our being and the body is a gift which we may well receive over and over again.

Originally posted by prof7

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz
einstein said it best "god does not play with dice" the inherent randomness that is quantum physics isn't possible. nothing is random.

The observed randomness IS the free will. And we can influence it!

If two outcomes are equally probable then from a god perspective they both happen. From the frog perspective we CHOOSE which one of the two to observe (and in which one of the universes will from now on be our reality (our lower dimensional subspace of the total reality)) at the very moment of LOOKING at it.

The wave function actually does never collapse at all, what looks to us like the wave function collapse is actually how it must look like when the observer is moving along and taking one branch while letting go the other. The superposition still exists, we only switch to one of the two possible projections of it into the lower dimensional space that is our "reality".

The entire Universe (as seen from the god perspective) is stateless, timeless and static, like a giant well defined mathematical object. And we are *actively* MOVING through it along a vast number of possible paths, creating the illusion of change around us. We are responsible for the randomness we observe, WE are deciding which part of the universe we are moving into. This is the manifestation of free will.

edit on 12-6-2011 by prof7 because: (no reason given)

edit on 12-6-2011 by prof7 because: (no reason given)

So when a person moves into another universe depending on what choice he/she makes, then those around them move with them right? So then those around the person have no free will? Whatever path you think you decide to pick, the end is still your destiny.

Think about this, to change one small thing would create an entirely different set of outcomes, there wouldn't be anything subtle.

Take a piece of paper and draw a dot. This dot represents you, now draw two lines branching off with a dot for each of those. Those are your parents, now draw two lines from them with dots for their parents and so on and so on. If you took out any one of those dots, meaning those two people did not meet and procreate, look at how many lines and dots disappear. Most of all, you would not be here.

www.eprintablecalendars.com...

All these NDE cases tend to be the case that allows a slow shutdown in function. If I smashed your brain apart instantly with a .50 shell I doubt the same would occur.

Problem is if you do that the other person wouldn't be able to come back from your .50 shell headsmashing adventure to tell you about their mystical world of wonders, as it'd be game over. And yes YOU do doubt, but others don't because they believe those who have come back from OBE's, not just one or two, but thousands upon thousands of all ages, genre's, social classes, to tell of what they saw. If it gives people hope and unity then why is that such a bad thing? Its sure a hell of a lot better than religion which only strives to divide humanity.

Originally posted by Nikola014

...Hawking claims that human beings are merely "biological machines" with no consciousness, no souls, no spirit, no mind and nothing but a collection of organized chemicals that run physical brains in a deterministic machine-like way.

So, if Hawking is merely the sum of an organization of chemicals, which are the exact same chemicals in the same organizational patterns as the rest of us, how can he be deemed to be more brilliant than any one of us?

If his "machine", utilizing these same chemicals, tells him there is no consciousness, no soul, no spirit and no mind, then why do every one of our identical "machines" not tell us the same thing? Was he born with this knowledge, or did he arrive at his conclusion after years of studying, examination and research? Did his physical maladies contribute to his forming this opinion, psychologically?

What about some of these Hawking quotes?

I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road.

Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change.

We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something very special.

www.brainyquote.com...

Just thinking out loud...

reply to post by RUDDD


I'm aware that the massive instantaneous brain trauma scenario cant be validated and as my scenario would make your witness testimony evidence worthless we'll never to able to settle this through debate.

In current western societies at least, people are free to believe what they wish. Given what we know I find the the theory that its an effect of final brain operation more credible than the theory that a conscious formless energy field floats free into space at the point of death (perceives without being connected to any sense organs) and can go back into and re-integrate into the chemical/electrical process of the brain.

I generally find after life belief to be corrosive. It may be comforting for individuals but I don't think its good for society as a whole. Its historically been a mechanism of control by power elites. Its easier to have the serfs toiling in excrement if they believe doing what they are told gets them into heaven. If they believed they only had a short life and the only after life was their children then they might not want their children to be serfs and would get uppity.

We'll both get answers sooner or later :-)

Originally posted by Somehumanbeing
reply to post by Nikola014

 

Looks like people feel threatened.

If you know basic chemistry, basic biology, basic physics and basic neurology, you'll see that all of our actions, thoughts and perceptions are influenced primarily by electrical signals in our brain, of which external/internal factors such as genetics, environment, and experiences are a catalyst for. There is no "magical" free will, and IF let's say there is "magical"free-will, it would be so weak in effect that in comparison to all the other "driving forces" behind our actions, it could be considered insignificant.

Where in all that does the quantum lie? Given the nature of quantum mechanics, it becomes pretty clear where "free will" comes from. Just because statistically things behave as they do on the macro scale, does not mean that every event falls into those narrow parameters. And, in fact, there is evidence that, indeed, they don't.

Also... It is the Mind that organized and interprets all the chemistry, biology, physics, and neurology. You make it sound as if, given two identical people - identical in all physical makeup - will ALWAYS choose identically. I contend that that is a fallacy. Our free will resides in the Mind which interfaces with the material, and if this is so, it is clear that starting with two physically identical Beings will NOT result in identical behaviors and actions.

Hawking isnt from Earth...he is from SOMEWHERE ELSE..

I wonder when humanity as a whole will figure out that fighting over "believing" in different things doesn't amount to jack.

I don't try to defend Hawking,i just don't like the way this guy depict science. Science helped humanity very much.It even helped him. Some guy messed things seriously up but even if we know that a rotten apple can damage the rest in the basket, we don't throw all the other apples away without checking them out before.

reply to post by justwokeup


she told them who did what with what instruments during the procedure. the doctor who did the operation is one of a very few who can do such a high risk procedure. she was braindead before they actually started. they essentially stopped her heart by dropping her body temperature.

It's rather disconcerting to hear from various "famed" scientists about their supposed set of beliefs. Just that in itself, the ability to believe and choose what you believe - in the case of scientist Stephen Hawking it would appear he has created a paradoxical fallacy, entrapped by his own grandiose analytical mind. Whatever happened to freedom to believe or disbelieve what we as individuals choose? What about the power of the human mind and the interaction of mind-space/time, considering they are ingrained?

I am not claiming that any of what Hawking says is untrue, is true. I do however, think he is becoming a little bit naive in his absolutist-oriented beliefs.

Remember Mr. Hawking, the analytical mind is an incredible servant, and as Einstein put it eloquently:

"The human mind is comprised of two minds, the left and right mind. One is a faithful servant, the other is a beautiful gift. Today we honour the servant and have forgotten the gift."

Some of us embraced the gift, Mr. Hawking. Here's the kicker, when it comes to this kind of stuff, empirical observation often goes out the window because of the very action of people disbelieving/believing, creating probabilities, but Im sure I could short Mr. Hawking's mind with a thing or two in regard to incomprehensibly improbable events.

Carry on.

The God within is bored
Don't even care about control anymore
This world's a living cancer...and it spreads like a two-dollar whore

What I meant to say was... life is what you make of it.
Life is suffering (while seeking pleasure and refuge.) Death is peace.

The mind of God is terminally bored because there's only so much you can build with your legos, dig?

reply to post by Nikola014


Galileo is rolling in his grave.

I can probably best sum up how I feel about Hawking's comments, by quoting RIchard Feynman.

"I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy". - Feynman

Correlation is not causation.

Recognizing that patterns of brain chemicals correlate with perceived states of consciousness does not mean that the mind is created by the brain.

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that mind or personality or even decisions are based on independent physical mechanisms, (moving chemicals). The mind is expressed by the brain, not created.

Correlation is not causation.

Pretty harsh view of looking at it from Hawking's point of view however there are a fair few people who aren't religious but simply believe that we are more than 'biological machines', the concept of nothing is too hard to grasp for me (in terms of the afterlife) however I do think reincarnation is possible as well as the after life .

If we were just biological machines then we wouldn't have ANY religions on earth, we are more than that .

reply to post by THE_PROFESSIONAL


Who made God and how can God just exist from nothing?
If God is all powerful can he create a rock to heavy fro himself to lift?
If God is all knowing and all seeing couldn't he see his creation as flawed and self destructive?
If God is perfect why would he have to destroy his creation more than once so therefore his creation is flawed but all seeing he should have know it was doomed from the beginning?
If you say free will then why can't i choose to believe what i believe without fear of going to hell for using my freewill so therefore i do not have freewill for i can only use it as God sees fit.
If God is all forgiving how can he condemn anyone especially those he created, if you can't forgive your own children then how can you be all forgiving and all loving?
If God is all loving how can he kill his own children? Even a mother whose child commits crimes will still protect her child without limits so is this human mother more loving than God? So therefore God can not be all loving as the mother has more love for her child than God.
I do believe in a creator but common sense would say if we are indeed created in God's image then the creator is flawed as we are.
Why would God need excuses to explain a flawed creation and how are we to get back to God and find our way to be like him if his motto is do as i say and not as i do?
God can kill man at a whim but man can not kill man even if another man kills his family but God can kill man for simply being human and using free will.
I choose to believe in a creator but not a God that is a hypocrite and maybe Stephen Hawking can not put his faith into something that makes absolutely no sense and has an ideology of slave worship for if you go against this almighty God and use your supposed free will then suffer the wrath of eternal damnation which therefore can not come from an all loving and all forgiving God so therefore God is flawed in logic and not perfect.
Btw i was born and raised Roman Catholic and yes had communion and confirmation and went to Catholic schools and believed in God blindly as being a good catholic was told to do and even feared eating meat on Friday just so i wouldn't go to hell until i asked why would an all loving God send me to hell for eating meat on Friday when i never committed a crime or killed someone but then the Vatican changed the rule and then i thought well how can they amend the laws of God and did God tell them it was ok only to realize they just make things up as they go along just like the Mormons who just until recently allowed Blacks in their religion.
So all religions are flawed and what makes one religion better or right over the other religions if there is suppose to only be one God? Also religions are the main cause of war (including all the present day killings) and atrocities throughout history so wouldn't the world and the human race be better off without all these religions?
As long as there is religion there will be war eternal and never peace so therefore the world would be better off without God's creation of man which is suppose to be his greatest masterpiece but in reality is the cause of the destruction of the world so God is flawed regardless of which one you believe in.