The "Creator" can Either be Omnipotent or Intelligent, not both.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul
I'm sure Yahweh could find cheese at the end of a small maize. Because in order for nothing to do something, nothing need not exist. Since Yahweh doesn't exist, Yahweh is nothing, lest the cheese be left to rot.

reply to post by WhoTheCapFit


Soo...a bunch of straw men and more special pleading? Hm...sounds like the name of a hipster band more than a logical argument. Please, think critically and try to form a logical argument next time.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


This is exactly right madnessinmysoul. Many believers posit that the creator is omnipotent, but how does one judge that? We can only judge this deity from the limited human perspective and using that there is no way to establish that God is perfect, all knowing or all powerful.

The idea of a perfect intelligent designer makes no sense when we live in an imperfect world.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Intelligence is like with all things meassured by human standards...
That's why we wouldn't recognize it if it would bite us in the but...

reply to post by willie9696

the most intersting and obviously stupid question I've seen here in awhile.

A stupid question is the opposite of an interesting one, surely. But you don’t really mean stupid, though, do you? You mean ‘too frightening and confusing to think about’.

I think it is an intelligent subject as well as an interesting one, although I disagree with madness. I don’t think omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive; I do think that they are not compatible with goodness and free will. If God is omnipotent, then He cannot be good, and if He is omniscient then you have no free will.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

Your premise is wrong.

An omnipotent being could by definition create anything it liked. Therefore it could create a universe where it or it's creation (part of it) could be tested within pre-determined rules.

The key to this is the term omnipotent. Omnipotence gives one the power to do anything - including creating a universe where it can be limited to only being intelligent. However, within that universe it would I suppose not be omnipotent - paradoxically as a result of it's own omnipotence.

Make sense?

reply to post by Pimander

Originally posted by Pimander
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

 

Your premise is wrong.

An omnipotent being could by definition create anything it liked. Therefore it could create a universe where it or it's creation (part of it) could be tested within pre-determined rules.

...yes, but the act of creating the universe itself is not a test of intelligence. Sure, it could be tested within...but then it would have to divest itself of omnipotence because testing is limitation. I'm saying that this is an argument against the idea that the universe itself is not a demonstration of intelligence.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
I'm saying that this is an argument against the idea that the universe itself is not a demonstration of intelligence.

I don't agree that a hypothetical creator could only be either intelligent or omnipotent. However, I agree with you that the universe itself isn't a demonstration of intelligence.

I think you mean omnipotent or OMNISCIENT as humans are intelligent but not omniscient.

Why is it that omnipotence is not the same as omniscience?

Omnipotence = power
Omniscience = knowledge

knowledge is power.

So if God could do anything, it would also preclude that God would know everything, logically because he did it. It's circular logic, there's no escaping it.

But that doesn't mean the truth is God. The truth is a state, not a being. God's being would be so automatic as to render possibilities meaningless, he would simply act by his own will, or if not, then the universe could be subject to destruction at any moment, like a man waking from a dream. But since God is in a sleepless dream, he dreams while always awake, then it is more described as a cosmic awareness or consciousness as opposed to an actual being with wants and desires (akin to the Old Testament). God would certainly have no desires if he was perfect. He would have no characteristics of a normal being, he would be the essence of super being, a will beyond all other wills. Intelligence wouldn't even fall under this category, only self-knowledge, since there would be nothing but itself. Intelligence in a normal sense is unnecessary when you have a complete unity. Intelligence is meant for beings on the lower plane so they can escape to the higher transcendental point. When you reach that point you have attained Godhood.

A smart person may not be testable, but that doesn't mean he is stupid, it just means he alone knows he is smart.

How do you test intelligence in humans? An IQ test? Okay, how do you test the world's greatest IQ test creator? You can't, so given your logic if God can not be tested he is not intelligent, thus the world's greatest IQ test creator can't be tested so he's stupid? Doesn't make sense.

Originally posted by filosophia
I think you mean omnipotent or OMNISCIENT as humans are intelligent but not omniscient.

Who are you referring to? I certainly meant intelligence NOT omniscience.

reply to post by filosophia

Originally posted by filosophia
A smart person may not be testable, but that doesn't mean he is stupid, it just means he alone knows he is smart.

How do you test intelligence in humans? An IQ test?

...no. You create a rough approximation based upon problem solving skills. You put them in a limiting situation and see how they beat those limits.

Okay, how do you test the world's greatest IQ test creator? You can't, so given your logic if God can not be tested he is not intelligent, thus the world's greatest IQ test creator can't be tested so he's stupid? Doesn't make sense.

My logic? I'm sorry, but you're attacking an odd position, as the way to test a person's intelligence has nothing to do with IQ tests (which I oppose in the first place).

You test a person's intelligence by placing limits upon them in a situation and seeing how they apply themselves to overcome those limits, that's what I gave as an explanation in the first place.

Furthermore, you're tossing in the word 'stupid', which I never really mentioned. What I'm saying is that you cannot say a complex universe is a demonstration of intelligence because intelligence is an idea derived from testing under limitation...and an omnipotent being wouldn't have limitations upon it.

This is an argument against the idea of an 'intelligent design' argument, not calling anything stupid.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


your confused, and there isnt any argument, its just your perception developing, its not an attack. you are looking for a fight about it, you are right and everyone else is wrong, you are simply another case, the blind leading the blind and lying. keeep going, safe discovery. i dont know what you mean about straw men, your under rating the beings we already are. this is just an experience to perceive the separation from god. everything else is you making it as complicated and as simple as you want to. everything is wavelength and frequency. wake up already and stop your tantrums tempting your SELF and the god. you just want special attention and to feel completed and awakened, dnot worry your trigger is one thing or another. hell eat some shrooms and go sit in the sun and remember the truth .cause i promise you already know whats going on its just a process of realizing reality being born into bondage.
whatever it is, dont go around frontin and pushin peoples statements out of context so you somehow feel better or higher than another cause you arent and you cant be. your ego needs dissolving and your arrogant stubborness will not help you or others around you. safe discovery and i wish you great spiritual growth in letting go of what you "think" lol and what you "know" just be open and accepting poo pooing on different perspectives is not advancing society its that right there that has created the limited finite mental foundation of ignorance leading to our enslavement. its almost over. love love love love love love that is the power ;]]]]] wake up brothers and sisters, dont fall for the propaganda, conspiracies can be fun but they can also bring spirits and energy with them that are counterproductive in the living simple truth. we chose to be born. thats what we do, we create the rest is intentions and perception, period. i wish you well. take care and safe re-discovery ;]]

reply to post by WhoTheCapFit

Originally posted by WhoTheCapFit
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

 

your confused, and there isnt any argument, its just your perception developing, its not an attack.

Again, the claim that your perception has developed beyond mine...yet it hasn't. Hell, you don't even seem to grasp the basics of informal logical fallacies.

Let's count them down. So, above is special pleading. That's one logical fallacy.

you are looking for a fight about it, you are right and everyone else is wrong,

Logical fallacy: Straw man
Score so far: 2

I don't think I'm right and everyone else is wrong. I think that, based upon the evidence I have access to, I am closer to the truth, though I may be wrong about a great many things.

you are simply another case, the blind leading the blind and lying. keeep going, safe discovery.

Yay, a personal attack! I'm sorry, but how am I lying?
Score: 3

i dont know what you mean about straw men, your under rating the beings we already are.

...you could just use google. Or check wikipedia. Oddly enough, this line is itself a straw man, I'm not underrating anyone.

Score: 4

this is just an experience to perceive the separation from god.

...what? There's a god? I wasn't aware of this! Could you please prove that statement?

everything else is you making it as complicated and as simple as you want to.

Relativist fallacy.
Score:5

everything is wavelength and frequency.

Wave particle duality is just that, a duality. There's both particles and waves.

wake up already and stop your tantrums tempting your SELF and the god.

Another personal attack!
Score: 6

I'm sorry, you keep bringing up this 'god' thing. What is it and where is your evidence for it?

you just want special attention

One more personal attack on the pile
Score: 7

and to feel completed and awakened, dnot worry your trigger is one thing or another.

I don't want to feel completed or awakened, I just want to have access to a good life.

hell eat some shrooms and go sit in the sun and remember the truth .

Endorsement of illegal activities on top of all of those fallacies. I'm sorry, I'd prefer to not fry my brain. By the way...how would taking a hallucinogen give me access to things? Are you claiming that I somehow already know the truth but have somehow forgotten it?

I have to say, it was stupid when Plato said it, it's stupid now. And Plato was probably more intelligent than either of us.

cause i promise you already know whats going on its just a process of realizing reality being born into bondage.

Ugh, this new age woo is getting frustrating. What is it that's going on? Where is the evidence?

whatever it is, dont go around frontin and pushin peoples statements out of context so you somehow feel better or higher than another cause you arent and you cant be.

Another personal attack! Wait, it's a whole two of them! And a straw man! Where did I take anyone out of context? How am I 'frontin'? And I don't want to be better than anyone, I just want to be the best me I can be.

Score: 9

Also, I am better at some things than other people. I'm probably better with a camera than you are, because I take photography and cinematography seriously. I'm probably a better cook and baker than a lot of people on here, because I spend time doing it. I'm not better at everything. I can't ski or ice skate. I can't skin an animal. I'd be horrible in a medieval war.

your ego needs dissolving

Personal attack/amateur psychology
Score: 10

and your arrogant stubborness will not help you or others around you.

Personal attack
Score: 11

How am I arrogantly stubborn? Is it because I ask people who claim that I'm wrong to prove that I'm wrong? What's so arrogant about being asked to be proven wrong?

safe discovery and i wish you great spiritual growth in letting go of what you "think" lol and what you "know" just be open and accepting

I'm open and accepting to any claim that can be proven. So this is yet another straw man, because you're implying that I'm not.
Score: 12

poo pooing on different perspectives is not advancing society its that right there that has created the limited finite mental foundation of ignorance leading to our enslavement.

...no, I'd say accepting any idea so long as it makes someone feel good is a bad thing. Accepting perspectives that have legitimate foundation is one thing, accepting them all is stupid.

its almost over.

No, my response is over because this whole post has been entirely off-topic and riddled with fallacies.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


there is no perception beyond or better, once again you seem to think im attacking you or somehow demeaning you and i am not, you are doing it to yourself by takin out of context the simple encouraging message to believe in yourself, why do you insist on arguing and defending constant arrogance. its sad this is the problem. stop with your aggressive ego. it is not helpful to anyone. simply makes you look lost and almost panicky. heh. regardless. safe discovery and enjoy your developing perception. you are a very intelligible being and whether or not you like it we share being existence right now, its a beautiful thing not something for you smut up with accusations and taking everything i say out of context to change my intentions and meaning into somethin offensive which im not being at all in anyway. simply encouraging your continue re-discovery of self and god. take care. one love one song, UNI-VERSE. the feeding tube of finite answers of the internet, and you seem very concerned about others being "better" than some is just prooof of your particular perception. not better just different.individual destiny secure and assured. funny how you pick apart what i say. hah thats what humans do. create. but wanting to create controversy over agreeing but ust in a different way of phrase is silly. just down right silly. let go of that #. geeeez...

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


lol score.... exactly. your perception. enjoy re-discovery of self and god. its not my fault you were born you did it. lol.. geez where is the love your so determined to tit for tat. its sad. try again. be more accepting in understanding and variable perception you are too dense. it must be a luxury to be living such a diluted lifestyle to talk to and treat other beings the way you do.

God is neither Omnipotent or Omniscient and therefore must exhibit some intelligence.

Even if we were his 8th grade school project now collecting mold in the back of his closet under dirty magazines.

If you truly study the bible, God asks for help all the time, and asks for information all the time - this completely excludes his ability to be Omni-anything.

what if "god" is cold and indifferent? like the great dragon pan. Who wishes nothing more than to destroy his biggest mistake? i tend to lean this way if i ever share my opinion of what "god" is like.

reply to post by WhoTheCapFit


Ok, I rarely call people out on grammar and stuff...but come on, learn to punctuate! Don't just vomit words onto the screen.

Originally posted by WhoTheCapFit
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

 

there is no perception beyond or better, once again you seem to think im attacking you or somehow demeaning you and i am not,

So I'm:
Arrogant
Stubborn
Blind
Throwing tantrums and special attention
An intellectual bully
And more...

...that's not attacking?

you are doing it to yourself by takin out of context the simple encouraging message to believe in yourself,

...I do believe in myself...and no, I'm if your message is found under various attacks upon my character, you need to fix your presentation.

why do you insist on arguing and defending constant arrogance.

Another personal attack!
I'm sorry, but where is my 'constant arrogance'?

its sad this is the problem. stop with your aggressive ego.

Another attack upon my character...

it is not helpful to anyone. simply makes you look lost and almost panicky. heh.

...more personal attacks. You see, I'm not taking you out of context when pretty much every few lines there's one or more personal attack...

regardless. safe discovery and enjoy your developing perception. you are a very intelligible being and whether or not you like it we share being existence right now,

...we can't share anything that is a concept that lacks intelligibility.

its a beautiful thing not something for you smut up with accusations

...smut up? Really? I'm not doing that, I'm just pointing out a personal attack when I see it.

and taking everything i say out of context to change my intentions and meaning into somethin offensive which im not being at all in anyway.

I've already asked you to show me where I'm taking things out of context. It's also very difficult to find context when there's no syntax.

simply encouraging your continue re-discovery of self and god. take care.

There's no care in indulging the ignorance you're spouting. Where's the evidence of a deity? If you say I need to take hallucinogens for that, please just leave me alone because I like my brain being undamaged.

one love one song, UNI-VERSE.

...I already shared with you the etymology of this word, you ignored it.

the feeding tube of finite answers of the internet, and you seem very concerned about others being "better" than some is just prooof of your particular perception.

Woooooo more straw men. I'm better at some things, some are better at other things. I'm not all that concerned about it, it's just true. I'm no doctor, so I go to someone who is much better at medical science than me.

not better just different.individual destiny secure and assured.

...no, better. A doctor is better with medical science than me. An engineer is better at engineering. Their skills are superior to my own. I'll never design a bridge or cure a disease.

reply to post by Forevever


Well, then you just chose the second option.

And yeah, defeated by iron chariots!