The "Creator" can Either be Omnipotent or Intelligent, not both.

Why did I say this seemingly odd statement? Well, it's because I realized what intelligence is. I'll give you an example.

Now, what is intelligence? Well...my question for you is: How do we measure it in mice.?

If you just got a mental image of a maze with a chunk of cheese at the end of it, congratulations, you get it. We measure intelligence by testing it, by providing limits. There would be no way to test intelligence if someone is given unlimited resources, time, and power.

Intelligence is therefore not a thing, it's not a characteristic that is inherent. It's a measured trait based upon tests, and tests necessarily have limitations.

If you had access to the internet while taking a history test, it wouldn't be much of a test, would it? It would be even worse if you had a time machine.

Now, an all-powerful being, an 'intelligent designer', is one or the other. If that being is all-powerful than it is inherently not testable. It cannot be limited and is therefore unable to demonstrate whether or not it is intelligent. A truly omnipotent being wouldn't have to design a complex body, our bodies could merely be meet sacks filled with light if the being is truly omnipotent. In fact, that would point to an omnipotent designer a lot more than a big ol' sack of assorted meats and bones.

The question then doesn't become: Who designed the designer? It's more like: "Who is testing the designer?"

What factors are limiting the intelligent designer? What are the obstacles that are overcome? How is the designer overcoming them?

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


are you confusing omniscient and omnipotent?
maybe I need to read it again

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


if a rat is in a house, does that make it a mouse? or if a mouse goes outside, is it a rat? quantum!!??

I'm sorry, are you saying that God can't be Omnipotent and Omniscient?
I totally get where you're going with your point though really - but I think being everywhere and knowing everything at the same time, intelligence is a side effect.
On the other hand, I don't believe God is everywhere all the time - even in the terms of the Bible - he has a tendency to ask questions - so if he was omnipotent or omniscient... why would he need to ask?
therefore you're correct - he is not Omnipotent - just intelligent

P.S. he's not really all powerful either, cause he asks for help all the time

LOL, wow that's the most intersting and obviously stupid question I've seen here in awhile. Good luck goading people into your "discussion".

lol what do you think you ARE? everything is vibration and frequency. i think your perception and understanding of your current being and of the god as a superman is a lil short sighted. keep searching but dont tempt or deny yourSELF, its you the whole time, we have done all this to ourselves. it was just for a certain amount of "TIME" because then again its non-linear, ALL to perceive what it would be or feel like to be without god, its just a perception for experience and now its time to wake up brothers and sisters. remember. =]] safe discovery.

Omniscience isn't intelligence, it is All Knowing. Knowledge does not equate intelligence, rather intelligence is the correct application of knowledge.

second

Originally posted by WhoTheCapFit
lol what do you think you ARE? everything is vibration and frequency.

Does that mean that god is a DJ


IRM

reply to post by InfaRedMan


precisely, In a sense,The Gods language is Vibration. HyperDimensional Cellular Mitosis, when the condition reaches zero there is your portal ;]]

UNI-VERSE=ONE-SONGreply to post by WhoTheCapFit
literally...

Originally posted by Jamjar
Omniscience isn't intelligence, it is All Knowing. Knowledge does not equate intelligence, rather intelligence is the correct application of knowledge.

second

I'm aware of that - I may have worded it wrong - I think I said "intelligence" would be a side effect

but I also said there's no way I can believe (based on questions and requests for assistance) found throughout the bible - that God is either Omnipotent or Omniscient - so I assume he's intelligent

At least in some areas - we all have our own stupidities to contend with

reply to post by Forevever


your confusing yourself, god "he" ?? um, well are you talking about jesus? or THE GOD well now im confused where you are coming from. you cant believe? i dont understand that either, its all in your mind, so get out of your mind and see the earth and universe for what it is not as the darkness would have you occupy your time. earth is as much heaven as it is hell, its ALL PERCEPTION and INTENTION. prison/basic training earth, stop diluting yourself and wake up already. do not doubt yourself its what you feel not as you try to reason with traditions of man and religion. its all perception. the god is all there is has been will be and can be. so. no worries this is just a short "time" for the experience. all around you is what you are looking for and inside you is what you are missing. DO NOT DENY OR TEMPT yourSELF. let go of what you think, thats not even who you ARE. lrt go let go let go and love love love. =]] safe discovery.

reply to post by Forevever

Originally posted by Forevever
I'm sorry, are you saying that God can't be Omnipotent and Omniscient?

...while I do say that, this is an entirely separate issue. Knowledge is something entirely separate from intelligence.

I totally get where you're going with your point though really - but I think being everywhere and knowing everything at the same time, intelligence is a side effect.

No, intelligence is a measurement based upon testing. It's a measurement of problem solving skills.

P.S. he's not really all powerful either, cause he asks for help all the time

edit on 8-6-2011 by Forevever because: I can read

And he's beaten by iron chariots.

reply to post by willie9696


Yay, an appeal to ridicule! I'm sorry, but what's fundamentally wrong with my premises? What's wrong with the questions?

reply to post by WhoTheCapFit


Hooray for butchering etymology. I can't believe how many time I've had to cite the etymology of the word "universe".

From the Wikipedia entry on "Universe"

The word universe derives from the Old French word Univers, which in turn derives from the Latin word universum.[6] The Latin word was used by Cicero and later Latin authors in many of the same senses as the modern English word is used.[7] The Latin word derives from the poetic contraction Unvorsum — first used by Lucretius in Book IV (line 262) of his De rerum natura (On the Nature of Things) — which connects un, uni (the combining form of unus', or "one") with vorsum, versum (a noun made from the perfect passive participle of vertere, meaning "something rotated, rolled, changed").[7] Lucretius used the word in the sense "everything rolled into one, everything combined into one".

reply to post by WhoTheCapFit


Sooo....quantum woo and special pleading? That's...sadly not a new reply for me. I'm sorry, but if you can substantiate your claims as having any merit, I'll listen to them, but you're not really doing anything more than the street corner preacher at this point.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


lol merit. what do you think you are? who do you think i am?its funny your perception of relations. keep going your on the path just going to discover the same thing but in your own way, what a wonderful thing to be apart of. i cant ruin the surprise and there is nothing to help you with, most of your discussion are just tempting yourself and trying to deny everything in the face of proof. lol what more do you need. clean up your mind and clearly free your heart. dont be deliberately discouraging. because the truth is you dont know and it makes you irate and breeeds hate and confrontation over discrepancy in descriptions of the same thing. like worshipping praising god in different languages or rituals. different so just drop bombs right?. oh well. you will be fine. everyones individual destiny is assured it will be whats best for everyone, collectively. together. good luck with your stepping.

Originally posted by WhoTheCapFit

 

your confusing yourself, god "he" ?? um, well are you talking about jesus? or THE GOD well now im confused where you are coming from. you cant believe? i dont understand that either, its all in your mind, so get out of your mind and see the earth and universe for what it is not as the darkness would have you occupy your time. earth is as much heaven as it is hell, its ALL PERCEPTION and INTENTION. prison/basic training earth, stop diluting yourself and wake up already. do not doubt yourself its what you feel not as you try to reason with traditions of man and religion. its all perception. the god is all there is has been will be and can be. so. no worries this is just a short "time" for the experience. all around you is what you are looking for and inside you is what you are missing. DO NOT DENY OR TEMPT yourSELF. let go of what you think, thats not even who you ARE. lrt go let go let go and love love love. =]] safe discovery.

Oh please, I didn't realize we were getting into semantics here

For the basis of the question in the OP we must assume that God exists and is an entity and HE is a generalized statement brainwashed into me (I could easily have said SHE if I wanted to really make a point)

I didn't think this thread was to prove or disprove or even to define the generalized idea of god

I just thought we were questioning could he be Intelligent and Omnipotent at the same time (and yes bringing omniscient in was my mistake)

I stand by my original idea - intelligence is a side effect (we all have our own stupidities though), and God was never omnipotent or omniscient (otherwise he wouldn't have had to ask Cain where Abel was)

at the very very least, he was intelligent enough to get a bunch of people to believe in him - dig it.

All this hypothetical, mind you;

If god created the universe out of nothing, he didn't have any resources. Knowing everything that ever existed, wouldn't help him. The equivalent of a deaf man making music. That's where intelligence would be proven.

But, if god knows the future, he would have knowledge of all his creations, before he made them. This is paradox, if he reverse engineered his own designs before they happened in order to make them. An interesting concept, but nothing more.

This is kinda a semantics issue though, even if we defined intelligence as being unable to exist if it can't be measured, it's very unlikely that the original Hebrew and Greek wording to describe god carried that prerequisite as well.

Playing with wording doesn't interest me.

ill answer your question there
the ones who would be able to test it would be we,
we were created in the image ,
and fragments of that source,
but aslong as we do not live up to it's level ,
it has to present us mirrors,
we look into those untill we see another reflection come through,
once all have acheived this the creator can return to original state,
and become one with us again,
end of a long long search,
we chose to travel