John Kerry couldn't think for 40 minutes on 9/11

Originally posted by mpeake

Was he suppose to run out the door and hop into his fighter jet and personally escort the hijacked jets down himself? Better yet he could hop in his jet and just shoot em down. Come on buddy, didn't you read the sign when you joined this place"

DENY IGNORANCE!

What shoudl Bush have done? How bout this, listen to the report, take a deep breath put on a politions smile and tell the kids. "Kids, I really had fun with you today and you are all doing a wonderfull job. I am sorry I have to go be president now, but I will be back when I am able and I hope to read annother story with you." Excuse himself from the classrome and request a full explination as he leaves the school to the safety of airforce 1. Total time of news to action without causing a scene.... 3 min.

Why should it have been handeled this way? Because thats his job. When I get a report that I have lost all network conductivity to several OC192 connections I take about 8 seconds to take a deep breath and get to work on it. When cops ret a call that there is a multible shooting down the road they get in their cars and head to it, when the firestation gets a report that peoples lifes are in danger they move their butts then and there becasue it is our jobs to react to the worst case scenario.

Kerry didn't move when they hit... well it was not his job, what should the senater have done?

Wraith

Originally posted by wraith30

Originally posted by mpeake

Was he suppose to run out the door and hop into his fighter jet and personally escort the hijacked jets down himself? Better yet he could hop in his jet and just shoot em down. Come on buddy, didn't you read the sign when you joined this place"

DENY IGNORANCE!

What shoudl Bush have done? How bout this, listen to the report, take a deep breath put on a politions smile and tell the kids. "Kids, I really had fun with you today and you are all doing a wonderfull job. I am sorry I have to go be president now, but I will be back when I am able and I hope to read annother story with you." Excuse himself from the classrome and request a full explination as he leaves the school to the safety of airforce 1. Total time of news to action without causing a scene.... 3 min.

Why should it have been handeled this way? Because thats his job. When I get a report that I have lost all network conductivity to several OC192 connections I take about 8 seconds to take a deep breath and get to work on it. When cops ret a call that there is a multible shooting down the road they get in their cars and head to it, when the firestation gets a report that peoples lifes are in danger they move their butts then and there becasue it is our jobs to react to the worst case scenario.

Kerry didn't move when they hit... well it was not his job, what should the senater have done?

Wraith

Ok, let me get this straight...you version has him out the door in 4 minutes and the real version happened in what, 7 or 8 minutes? Whoa, a whole 3 minutes is saved in your version. Man, that's enough time to deploy our anti hijacked jetliner missiles. Look, I think it was already mentioned that it takes alot more for a president to vacate a room (especially when it was an unexpected departure) that it does for one of us to do so...You have to get the transportation ready, get all the secret service men ready, get a destination for the pres to go to ready....I honestly don't know how they moved him that fast. Bush was not a cop responding to a shooting down the road, or fireman responding to a house fire, or some guy who lost all network conductivity to several OC192 connections. He was a president responding to an unkown terrorist attack, one that he did not have details on or a plan of evacuation for. Those comparisons are laughable.

And on a side note...I don't even care how long Kerry took to respond. I never said that he took too long to respond in the first place. Just that Bush didn't take too long to do what he had to do.


[edit on 9-8-2004 by mpeake]

[edit on 9-8-2004 by mpeake]

Mirthfulme, don't bash Reid. He's pretty cool. And he's growing more independent than Democratic liberal

Originally posted by mpeake

Ok, let me get this straight...you version has him out the door in 4 minutes and the real version happened in what, 7 or 8 minutes? Whoa, a whole 3 minutes is saved in your version. Man, that's enough time to deploy our anti hijacked jetliner missiles. Look, I think it was already mentioned that it takes alot more for a president to vacate a room (especially when it was an unexpected departure) that it does for one of us to do so...You have to get the transportation ready, get all the secret service men ready, get a destination for the pres to go to ready....I honestly don't know how they moved him that fast. Bush was not a cop responding to a shooting down the road, or fireman responding to a house fire, or some guy who lost all network conductivity to several OC192 connections. He was a president responding to an unkown terrorist attack, one that he did not have details on or a plan of evacuation for. Those comparisons are laughable.

And on a side note...I don't even care how long Kerry took to respond. I never said that he took too long to respond in the first place. Just that Bush didn't take too long to do what he had to do.


[edit on 9-8-2004 by mpeake]

[edit on 9-8-2004 by mpeake]

The referance to police, firedepartment, and even somethign as simply as network conductivity is one of knolage of ones duties and the ability to react to them. It is quite aplicable.

I do not mind that it took 7 min, I do not mind that it took a good deal more time to get him out of there. That should have been aranged by the secret services before and as he was being notified.

The problem I have is the reaction, the body language of Mr. Bush. It was not one of resolve, it was not one of contemplation, as usual it was an expreson of somone who was lost in mindless confusion and it did not change.

That is what I found most disturbing.

Wraith

The problem I have is the reaction, the body language of Mr. Bush. It was not one of resolve, it was not one of contemplation, as usual it was an expreson of somone who was lost in mindless confusion and it did not change.

Gee, the president of a country who was just attacked, with the possibility of losing ten thousand lives that morning, was in a state of confusion. I don't even know how to respond to that. All I can do is put myself in that place and try to think how i would have reacted any other way. Bottom line is, anyone who says they would have done anything other than watch in amazement and horror (which IS what the rest of the country did) is a lier.

And the comparisons of those 3 professions reaction to their jobs is completely different and not valid for comparison to the presidency of the US. A policeman and a fireman's job is soley to respond with speed and accuracy to emergency situations. They are trained and conditioned to react without thinking. A presidents job is not to respond to emergency like situations without thinking, but instead to gather intel, meet with advisors, and formulate a plan of response as quickly and safely as possible.

Originally posted by mpeake

Gee, the president of a country who was just attacked, with the possibility of losing ten thousand lives that morning, was in a state of confusion. I don't even know how to respond to that. All I can do is put myself in that place and try to think how i would have reacted any other way. Bottom line is, anyone who says they would have done anything other than watch in amazement and horror (which IS what the rest of the country did) is a lier.

And the comparisons of those 3 professions reaction to their jobs is completely different and not valid for comparison to the presidency of the US. A policeman and a fireman's job is soley to respond with speed and accuracy to emergency situations. They are trained and conditioned to react without thinking. A presidents job is not to respond to emergency like situations without thinking, but instead to gather intel, meet with advisors, and formulate a plan of response as quickly and safely as possible.

A cop is supposed to react without thinking.... I know quite afew who would disagree with you.

And if it is Mr. Bush's job to gather int and react intelligently... then we are compleatly screwed.

wraith

Originally posted by wraith30

Originally posted by mpeake

Gee, the president of a country who was just attacked, with the possibility of losing ten thousand lives that morning, was in a state of confusion. I don't even know how to respond to that. All I can do is put myself in that place and try to think how i would have reacted any other way. Bottom line is, anyone who says they would have done anything other than watch in amazement and horror (which IS what the rest of the country did) is a lier.

And the comparisons of those 3 professions reaction to their jobs is completely different and not valid for comparison to the presidency of the US. A policeman and a fireman's job is soley to respond with speed and accuracy to emergency situations. They are trained and conditioned to react without thinking. A presidents job is not to respond to emergency like situations without thinking, but instead to gather intel, meet with advisors, and formulate a plan of response as quickly and safely as possible.

A cop is supposed to react without thinking.... I know quite afew who would disagree with you.

And if it is Mr. Bush's job to gather int and react intelligently... then we are compleatly screwed.

wraith

Excellent rebuttel...looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Of course! Could we honestly expect this president to react as a president and jump out of the childrens way and book it in order to keep children safe? NO. That takes quick thinking and brains and he has neither.

Originally posted by mpeake

Excellent rebuttel...looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Sorry was runnignout of time. Yes, quite accept that the majority of people should simply agree to disagree and then contiue on with the dabate.


However where were we? Ohh yea Bush puts the DUH! back into DUh-bya

I really don't have a huge problem with taking the 7 min.. I mean really, that is pretty hardcore news to try and swallow.

I have a huge problem with what was done over the following year and what has bled into the last 3.

Wraith

Originally posted by wraith30

Originally posted by mpeake

Excellent rebuttel...looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Sorry was runnignout of time. Yes, quite accept that the majority of people should simply agree to disagree and then contiue on with the dabate.

However where were we? Ohh yea Bush puts the DUH! back into DUh-bya

I really don't have a huge problem with taking the 7 min.. I mean really, that is pretty hardcore news to try and swallow.

I have a huge problem with what was done over the following year and what has bled into the last 3.

Wraith

Now that we can agree on I too have problems with the way he has led us so far, but I just can't allow the bashing of him for his "slow" response time to go on without questioning. The claim that 7 minutes of delayed reaction is too long is just nitpicking IMO. That's all I have been trying to say here.

Originally posted by FreeMason
Mirthfulme, don't bash Reid. He's pretty cool. And he's growing more independent than Democratic liberal

I'm lost FM, a quote? A member in this thread? Feel free to elaborate in your own "unique" way.

Maybe a typo?

I'm still trying.

Circus Monkeys, not just for public exploitation anymore...

in terms of the 7 minutes the president spent reading I would lke to offer a couple of points noone seems to have noticed.
1) after the first and second plane hit the WTc the secret service would have had to get nto contact with the FAA and any actve radar instalattns in the area to determine f there were anyplanes on a possible course trwards the presidents location, which would have taken some time. Civil radar does not skin-paint planes rather it is a passive system which tracks the IFF transponder on the plane, therefore the Secret Sertvice would have most likely had to get in touch with a military installation to be sure that the report from civil authorities was accurate.
2) while its true that the Secret Service has contingency plans after an attack of ths magnitude I would think the Secret Service would want to recheck the ground to ensure ther were no possible suicide assasins.
3) After the president was notified of the second plane hitting his advisors would have been scrambling to gather as much information as possible from diverse and most likely confused sources so as to be able to present what was known in as consie a manner as possible.
4) the president has no direct authority or knowledge of operations of the FAA and a reasoned respnse would have been to allow those who did to do thier jobs. What would have been served by the President micromanagng a division of government which has its own experts?
5) By staying n the classroom which was a secure location, the president took the prudent course of action, gving the secret servce time to re-assess the route to the airbase and determine the best location for the president to go to.
Any one of these factors would take at least few minutes and even if the President had jumped up immediatly to leave the amount of information gained would have been small. By allowng his advisors to gather the knowns and the unknowns allwng the secret service to do thier jobs and not alarming the children I think he showed great wisdom.
As sun tzu has said
(paraphrasing) While swiftness of acton has won many a battle undue haste has never been the mark of a great general, and proceeding without a cear plan has caused the demise of many.
Or s my dad once told me Measure twice cut once.

Originally posted by mwm1331
As sun tzu has said
(paraphrasing) While swiftness of acton has won many a battle undue haste has never been the mark of a great general, and proceeding without a cear plan has caused the demise of many.
Or s my dad once told me Measure twice cut once.

Sun Tzu would however have a heart attack if he could see the course of action we have taken after those attacks.

and Minimoto Musashi (Book of Five Rings) would insist that Bush kill himself for the disgrace.

Wraith

Perhaps when Bush reportedly choked on the pretzel and scuffed his face on the rug by falling off the couch, he was actually trying to do what Minimoto Musashi would approve of, and fall on his sword. Since he obviously missed, the White House would have needed to hush up the incident, and this the pretzel story was cooked up. ...nah, I doubt he'd have the class, since he is never wrong about anything.

Ya know.. I try to not think things like this just because no matter how much I dislike somone it is simply not the peacefull balanced way I know I should think... But when I heard he choked on a pretzel... I damn near pissed myself laughing. To almost be struck down by a piece of salty pretzely goodness....

Mr Bush is unable to process information once again.
The Secret Service, trained as they are (yes, trained) for such a situation did NOT react.

IF IM GOING TO PAY YOUR SALARY OUT OF MY HARD EARNED MONEY I WOULD EXPECT YOU TO PROCESS INFORMATION IN THE MOST HORRIBLE OF CIRCUMSTANCES!

There is no excuse. Only those who are total morons would say they were cought "off guard"- didnt know what to do. BULL

No matter how you paint it, how much you justify their reactions on 911, it smells like a rat, and it continues to stench....

Hence the Democrats dont believe a damn thing- For God's sake, put on the act correctly, or dont act at all.

Originally posted by Whodathunkit
Perhaps when Bush reportedly choked on the pretzel and scuffed his face on the rug by falling off the couch, he was actually trying to do what Minimoto Musashi would approve of, and fall on his sword. Since he obviously missed, the White House would have needed to hush up the incident, and this the pretzel story was cooked up.

...nah, I doubt he'd have the class, since he is never wrong about anything.

It appears your ignorance of current events, and politics extends to Feudal Japan as well. Miyamoto Musashi (1584?-1645), author of �Gorin No Sh�� (Book of Five Rings) and perhaps Japan�s greatest duelist, and swordsman would take a very different view of modern American events. As a samurai, Musashi would have deferred to his �Lord�, without question, such was the culture of his time period. As to �fall on his sword� Musashi would have found this to be an absolute disgrace! The act of �Seppuko� (or Death Poem Rite) was not a casual happenstance, with gravity providing the impetus of demise, but a carefully orchestrated atonement for some affront to the �Code of Bushido�. The offender would most often, given time to prepare his affairs, compose the one line �Death Poem� and then of his own will, and without restraint present himself to the offended parties to complete the penance. The actual act would comprise the use of a ceremonial dagger, or if none available (if the offender was not a noble, or of sufficient samurai rank) one of his �Daisho Pair� (the Katana, and Wakizashi) would be prepared (the blade would be wrapped with linen, or paper, with only a couple of inches of the tip exposed) this would provide a sure grip, and prevent any last thoughts of escape (an unlikely scenario). The offender would then perform three distinct cuts, down one lateral aspect of the abdomen, across the inferior (lower) abdomen, and finally up the opposite lateral aspect, effectively disemboweling themselves (an extremely painful act). While doing this the Death Poem was typically recited, its brevity an obvious necessity, at this time it was normal for a �Second� to step in and decapitate the offender, his honor now restored, and there being no need for further suffering. Interestingly in the enlightened later (1800�s) �Tokugawa Period�, also known as the �Edo Period�(1603-1867)� the Second would typically decapitate the offender as they reached for the dagger (or wrapped sword), the mere act of attempting the rite being sufficient to restore honor.

Obviously this was a long winded response to your attempt at Bush bashing, and levity with a historical twist, one that failed because of your lack of understanding of Feudal Japan�s cultural mindset, the ability to spell Miyamoto Musashi�s name correctly, and most importantly the difference between a Western affectation (falling on one�s sword), and the �Rite of Seppuko�. A little research, vice �posting from the hip� will go light years towards a cogent post, and prevent the need to �save face�.

Miyamoto Musashi.

The Forty Seven Ronin, a study in "Bushido".

Ninja Monkeys, not just for �B� movies anymore�

we're not in Japan.