Ancient Aliens Debunked?

Well thats where me and you will differ indefinitely.

First of I think the most likely explanation of 9/11 is rouge Muslim extremists, that being said there are some anomalies.
Second, You seem to be ( or at least hold the beliefs of ) what I call Localist Right Wing.

I am a Socialist Libertarian, I believe there is no agenda but the agenda of capitalism. That is to say I believe there are many (possibly into the 000s ) of agendas by private industry and governments and almost all are to keep the wealth for the wealthy and keep the working and middle classes in relative poverty to the capitalist elite.

The "hate the Muslims campaign" was fairly soft in Britain (where I live) as opposed to america,I know the majority of Muslims are good people, I dislike the faith as much as I do all others but I was never affected by anti Muslim propaganda and my opinions have remained unchanged since before 9/11 and 7/7.

From my point of view from outside America it seems the problems are very clear, Corporations run your government through lobbying, you have become Ultra Capitalist and profit is put before people and seen as normal. And to me the biggest enemy the U.S Establishment has ever faced is Socialism/Communism, it dwarfed Muslim extremists for the duration of the cold war, I wonder why they hate it so much


That being said I still don't believe the Ancient Aliens Series is part of any conspiracy of the capitalist elite.

Originally posted by Slunk91
Well thats where me and you will differ indefinitely.

First of I think the most likely explanation of 9/11 is rouge Muslim extremists, that being said there are some anomalies.
Second, You seem to be ( or at least hold the beliefs of ) what I call Localist Right Wing.

The most obvious explanation is almost never the right one, especially when talking about political agendas. And no, I don't pigeonhole myself into any fake left/right paradigm like you think I am. I am not a "Localist Right Wing" or left wing anything, they are merely two wings of the same bird you see on the American dollar bill, and you'll see that the power elite, the real power behind the throne is symbolized as being hidden behind the shield, like the "Great Oz" hidden behind the curtain. I don’t take this dog & pony you call elections & parties seriously.

Originally posted by Slunk91 I am a Socialist Libertarian, I believe there is no agenda but the agenda of capitalism. That is to say I believe there are many (possibly into the 000s ) of agendas by private industry and governments and almost all are to keep the wealth for the wealthy and keep the working and middle classes in relative poverty to the capitalist elite.

The "hate the Muslims campaign" was fairly soft in Britain (where I live) as opposed to america,I know the majority of Muslims are good people, I dislike the faith as much as I do all others but I was never affected by anti Muslim propaganda and my opinions have remained unchanged since before 9/11 and 7/7.

From my point of view from outside America it seems the problems are very clear, Corporations run your government through lobbying, you have become Ultra Capitalist and profit is put before people and seen as normal. And to me the biggest enemy the U.S Establishment has ever faced is Socialism/Communism, it dwarfed Muslim extremists for the duration of the cold war, I wonder why they hate it so much

Communism, which is just socialism in a hurry, was sold to us as the biggest enemy of the "free world", yet all ten planks of the communist manifesto have been adopted hook, line & sinker by the so called "beacon of freedom" we call America. The red scare of communism was as fake as the mystical Al-Qaeda group that's supposed to be hiding under everyone's bed that can attack at any moment. The power elite you call "capitalists" are not capitalists in the way we've been taught capitalism is supposed to be. They are monopoly capitalists, which is why they all supported communism in the first place, because communism represents a means in which large scale industry can be consolidated into an administrative unit, under their control.

Here is an important interview between G Edward Griffin and Norman Dodd, who was the director of research for the Reece Committee in 1954 investigating the major tax exempt foundations using their influence to merge the Soviet system with that of America's, as he said they were ordered to do by the White House.

Norman Dodd On Tax Exempt Foundations:

The Reece Committee: Social Science as a Tool for Control

Tax Exempt Foundations and Think Tanks: The Process of Invisible Power

Originally posted by Slunk91That being said I still don't believe the Ancient Aliens Series is part of any conspiracy of the capitalist elite.

Well, time always tells the truth, nothing more to be said here.

I have not read all of the posts about this topic, I'll admit. Perhaps someone else has already brought up the idea that AA the series, always posits the AAT position, and asks, "What if it was true?" Then they proceed to answer some other question. What interests me most is the idea that we cannot explain certain phenomena which are well known. The Ancient building techniques that allow thousand ton granite rocks to be cut from some other place, transported up a mountainside and put into a wall with apparent precision, for instance. Sometimes I think it is a giant leap to posit the idea that it has to be ET doing it. The most interesting of these to me is the megalithic construction at Baalbeck. These stones are so gigantic I cannot conceive of anyway in heck we could move those things now,(or why either) let alone back in 3000 b.c. (or whatever date they've come up with for the timeline) However, it doesn't mean ET did it. The principle of Occam's razor would require we accept the simplist solution, yet we don't seem to have any of those. And, we do have numerous texts and myths and stories from the ancestors that tell us that they got this from "Gods" who came down from the stars. I'm pretty sure they weren't writing just so we (many thousands of years later) could ponder what the heck they meant. They would have been more concerned with their next generation, I imagine. I think it would be great if we continued with the idea of answering the question, "What if this WAS true?" This is a way of saying, "So What?" and/or "Now what?" Ancient Aliens poses a lot more questions than it provides answers for, as it should.

reply to post by Encryptde


So how old is Occam's Razor? I ask because it seems the logic we use to debunk others is sometimes so old we don't even know ourselves how unreliable it is. We just keep calling it up, because no one knows enough to question it. Which is exactly what we accuse dreamers of doing with their "radical" theories. Round and round...

If Giorgio says ancient aliens theory is valid, then by gotdammit ancient aliens theory is valid..... case CLOSED

How do you debunk a show that brings you nothing but facts? They show you a bunch of crap that happened and let you form an opinion based on it.

The world is flat, everyone is a witch and anyone that disagrees with me needs to be debunked. OP, please get over yourself. Seriously.

Here's the thing for all the supposed 'debunkers':

A. Either you believe that all of the ancient civilizations were delusional when they wrote about 'gods' coming from the skies, and that basically the bible is all fairy-tale,

or

B. You are a religious person that really believes in the spiritual (omnipotent, universe-creating) god that is understood mainstream society, and that gods and aliens are two different things

right?

Well, for group A:

Ancient civilizations had oceans and mountains between them, not to mention that there were various language barriers; this will make it difficult to somehow come up with the same stories about visitors from the sky. These stories not only all had similar characters, but the history of the characters is also the same. They also included documentation about the 'vessels' that the beings traversed by. How is it that these 'fairy-tale' stories are so uniformed, yet all come from very different humans' imagination?

This group is not ready to pick the bible back up, plain and simple. They don't want to acknowledge hidden history among ancient civilizations that spoke about 'the ones that came from heaven', even though there was no way for these civilizations to be on the same accord with stories about the gods. In fact, they detest acknowledging any affirmation of a 'god' period. To them, we simply evolved from primates, untouched and without interference overnight 'somehow' over a long, long time.

They are not ready to acknowledge ANY entity that surpasses their intelligence level. They do not want admit that they just may NOT be the 'know-all supreme beings' of the universe; in fact, they really don't like the mention of the word 'extraterrestrial' all that much as it is. Any notion that another race of beings, whether 'gods' or aliens knocks them out of their fantasized position as the highest and most advanced beings.

for group B:

You are at least closer to the truth. You understand that these many civilizations actually wrote down what they witnessed, and that it is too odd a coincidence to be so similar of these happenings around the world. You understand that the Earth actually had visitors, except that you believe that they came by some sort of 'spiritual/magical means', and the idea that this was a spaceship sounds preposterous to you. You feel that miracles and technology are two different things, a supreme 'god' created the universe and humans just because. You believe that this god is still in communication with you.

This group is not ready to add logic, history, and science into their religious dogma because it makes their 'gods' and 'angels' tangible, physical beings that are not magical and are not in control. This makes them know that there is no 'god' in the sky that has there best interest at heart, granting 'prayers'. It leaves them responsible for their own fates.

Originally posted by ButterCookie
Here's the thing for all the supposed 'debunkers':

A. Either you believe that all of the ancient civilizations were delusional when they wrote about 'gods' coming from the skies, and that basically the bible is all fairy-tale,

or

B. You are a religious person that really believes in the spiritual (omnipotent, universe-creating) god that is understood mainstream society, and that gods and aliens are two different things

right?

Perhaps one of the grossest false-dichotomies of this debate, thus far. You don't have to believe anyone was delusional to acknowledge the myths of the ancients were just myths. In many cases they were people trying to make sense of a world they did not understand, without the proper knowledge and tools to do so. In other cases, they were simply cherished stories that were taken as literal truths. None of this makes the ancients unintelligent or delusional. In fact, you are accusing skeptics of believing something that not a single skeptic has claimed.

If anything, it is the believers in ancient aliens who tell us the ancients were dumb and delusional, unable to comprehend mortal beings for being such, mistaking them for being gods. Further, the ancient alien believers tell us that our ancestors were too stupid to make the grand achievements they did, without help from aliens. And yet, you accuse skeptics of saying the ancients were dumb and delusional.

Originally posted by ButterCookie
Ancient civilizations had oceans and mountains between them, not to mention that there were various language barriers

The ancient world was far more connected than the ancient alien proponents would want us to believe.

Originally posted by ButterCookie
this will make it difficult to somehow come up with the same stories about visitors from the sky. These stories not only all had similar characters, but the history of the characters is also the same.

Almost complete and total nonsense. The mythology of the ancient world is also far more diverse than the ancient aliens proponents would have us believe. Any actual study of world mythology would show this.

They also included documentation about the 'vessels' that the beings traversed by. How is it that these 'fairy-tale' stories are so uniformed, yet all come from very different humans' imagination?

Originally posted by ButterCookieeven though there was no way for these civilizations to be on the same accord with stories about the gods.

They weren't. See above. Study world mythology, study ancient civilizations...read an actual book about antiquity that wasn't written by an ancient-alien proponent. If your only source of knowledge is ancient alien books and TV shows, you are wallowing in ignorance.

Originally posted by ButterCookieIn fact, they detest acknowledging any affirmation of a 'god' period. To them, we simply evolved from primates, untouched and without interference overnight 'somehow' over a long, long time.

Not overnight. Might want to read a book on human evolution while you're at it. No skeptic claims this. The only people who make this claim about are those ignorant about evolution.

Originally posted by ButterCookie
They are not ready to acknowledge ANY entity that surpasses their intelligence level. They do not want admit that they just may NOT be the 'know-all supreme beings' of the universe; in fact, they really don't like the mention of the word 'extraterrestrial' all that much as it is. Any notion that another race of beings, whether 'gods' or aliens knocks them out of their fantasized position as the highest and most advanced beings

An appeal-to-spite wrapped up in an ad hominem.

Even if a skeptic was as your describe above, that does not make them wrong. You are attacking the people, not the argument. So please, tell us how your above diatribe would make the skeptics' arguments wrong.

Originally posted by TheAnswerTo1984
How do you debunk a show that brings you nothing but facts? They show you a bunch of crap that happened and let you form an opinion based on it.

The second noun is the better description, that's how.

They lie. Flat out lie about what is actually known.

Straight-up lies, sometimes. Other times, it's lies of omission.

For example, the most recent episode mentions once again the idiotic idea that the Maya carved a representation of King Pacal operating a spaceship on the cover of his tomb. The show states that "mainstream Archaeologists will say that it's a depiction of Pacal on his trip to the underworld " (maybe I'm misquoting - but only barely I assure you.)

What they don't say here could completely debunk their entire stupid scenario because they don't tell you the reason "Mainstream Archaeologists" will tell us this.

"Mainstream Archaeologists" tell us this because that is what is written, right there on the walls of Pacal's tomb, about what is shown in that very carving on the tomb cover!

The writing describes Pacal falling (or climbing) through the Tree of Life. The same stylized tree of life has been found in carvings at other Maya sites, and at some (like at Pacal's tomb) it is even referred to as the Tree of Life in accompanying writings at those other sites.

No, they don't bring you "nothing but facts." They only thing they bring you that is at all worth even considering is some decent cinematography.

Harte

I'm starting to get tired of know-it-all tards who think they know everything. OK let's take a closer look at the show, so close that you can #ing hurt your #ing eyes from closeness!

What IS Ancient Astronaut Theory, abbreviated A-A-T (ei-ei-ti? Ancient? Of having to do with PAST, Astronaut of having to do with visitation because that's the definition of someone crossing the stars or planets, Astronaut, and then T-h-e-o-r-y, notice THEORY, not FACT, THEORY and again THEORY, and remember in case you suffer sclerosis - THEORY.

So can a moderator put a rest to this thread by CLOSING it because it's very very start is dumb - 'Debunked'. It's not like you debunk made up stories. it's how you percept the FACTS - do you consider them normal or do you consider them extraordinary, a theory called AAT gives the second. Remember: Theory, based not on once upon a time but on 'We have this, it COULD be'.. so THEORY.

Their proponents are absolutely speculating on SOME things, notice - SOME - and while they are rather not accurate about some of the events that could simply be what science today has to say about, they definitely have a going on on a lot of the things.

Example of things rather uncertain on both scientists and AAT proponents side: Dinosaus - whether they became extinct cause of asteroid, no one can tell - it could have been climate, pole shift, solar flares, anything you can think of. In the same manner AAT persons cannot be certain aliens used some nuclear ro clear the planet and start life all over again, this is speculation.

Another example of rather speculating is how in India in ancient times they saw skeletons lying in a certain pose and they decided this could have been done by soem kind of nuclear weapon. Again they have a reason to think about it so, but maybe they are rushing too fast to conclusions.

Pyramids and who built them? Or how the peak was cut by a huge weapon in Peru and it serves as an airport - yes all this could have been entirely man made with primitve things. So I agree that many of the things are mere speculations and may not be so, at the same time some things lead exactly to what your primitive thinking of only explainable things exist fails to catch

JUST MYTHS?
It's like saying a certain species in the depths of 5000+ meters below the sea level do not exist because you haven't seen them yet say some researcher has been there and despite not having made the best picture, you disbelieve him for all that.

TROY was just a myth - hello, good morning! It turned out real when Schliemann found proof of that.

The GOLIATH was also just a myth, and anything related to it, then they did find a sling or traces of a giant skeleton or just the place that the 'myth' was talking about -previously none of that had any proof even the place, I don't remember which one exactly they found.

The Indians vs Red Hair Giants was all bullcrap right, also 'a myth'? Then they found the arrows, the giant mummies and just because of morons who want to hide anything that looks out of the ordinary (and need to DIE for that) so people remain retarded and brainwashed like some here

garry-nelson.hubpages.com...

Remember that above all AAT is brought to bring a logical and true explanation of the Biblical events if any of them were to be true and how considering some things 'just a myth' turn out to be true.

Originally posted by Imtor
In case everything was ;just artist expressions; to you


A 16th century woodcutting depicts this scene in which dark spheres were witnessed hovering over the town of Basel, Switzerland in 1566. The spheres appeared at sunrise, 'Many became red and fiery, ending by being consumed and vanishing', wrote Samuel Coccius in the local newspaper on this date.


At sunrise on the 14th April 1561, the citizens of Nuremberg beheld "A very frightful spectacle." The sky appeared to fill with cylindrical objects from which red, black, orange and blue white disks and globes emerged. Crosses and tubes resembling cannon barrels also appeared whereupon the objects promptly "began to fight one another." This event is depicted in a famous 16th century woodcut by Hans Glaser
Source

So it's not like AAT are fully correct and my position is that some of the things AAT has to say is probably very true, while others are not and YOUR position is everything is lie. So im willing to accept all that could be, you won't accept any other possibility? So don't even bother posting quoting or arguing

because I've seen gazillion times some stubbornly wanting for the sake of them sounding correct deny everything you say as if you know it all everything, Do u read?

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


I was intrigued by your thread, but quit reading when I read this......

"So it begins. This is going to be aggravating for me as person after person will no doubt belittle the ancients by claiming they were too stupid to devise ingenious ways to put stones on top of other stones."

Saying that an engineering feat like the giza pyramids are nothing more than "stones on top of stones" is like saying that a modern skyscraper is nothing more than "concrete on top of concrete". As well as insinuating that anyone an do it just with some ramps and copper tools and some sweat. Disinfonauts unite!

Besides, gotta love the ancient aliens show, it gets crazier and crazier and the poofy guys hair keeps growing. Soon his hair will have all us enslaved to the Annunaki.

I think ancient aliens existed, and extensive measures have been taken to cover it up. Here is an article that just came out a few days ago, titled "ET mummy found in Egypt" which pointedly says Egypt's antiquities minister Zahi Hawass, "a powerful and prestigious post that oversees the protection and research activity of every historical site that spans the ancient Egyptian dynasties, is responsible for being the State guardian of ancient knowledge and what's permitted to reach the outside world." ______beforeitsnews/story/1776/359/ET_Mummy_Found_In_Egypt.html

reply to post by Cancerwarrior

Saying that an engineering feat like the giza pyramids are nothing more than "stones on top of stones" is like saying that a modern skyscraper is nothing more than "concrete on top of concrete".

Generally though my description is accurate. The ancients built a lot of stone monuments that are impressive but to suggest that they lacked the brute force or ingenuity to build them, to insinuate they needed visitors from interstellar space, is absurd. Impressive and impossible are two very different things, we're not dealing with the ancients grasping quantum mechanics, we're dealing with stone blocks cut out of quarries and put into place - there is no need for extraordinary explanations.

I agree the show is very entertaining, I check back in on it regularly whenever I'm in need of a good laugh, unfortunately the show can be painfully stupid along with the laughter.

Funnily enough the good folks at South Park came up with a rebuttal to the AAH and Ancient Aliens far better than my measly little thread could hope to be. It's Season 15 episode 13 if anyone is interested, entitled a History Channel Thanksgiving.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by Cancerwarrior

 

Saying that an engineering feat like the giza pyramids are nothing more than "stones on top of stones" is like saying that a modern skyscraper is nothing more than "concrete on top of concrete".

Generally though my description is accurate. The ancients built a lot of stone monuments that are impressive but to suggest that they lacked the brute force or ingenuity to build them, to insinuate they needed visitors from interstellar space, is absurd. Impressive and impossible are two very different things, we're not dealing with the ancients grasping quantum mechanics, we're dealing with stone blocks cut out of quarries and put into place - there is no need for extraordinary explanations.

I agree the show is very entertaining, I check back in on it regularly whenever I'm in need of a good laugh, unfortunately the show can be painfully stupid along with the laughter.

Funnily enough the good folks at South Park came up with a rebuttal to the AAH and Ancient Aliens far better than my measly little thread could hope to be. It's Season 15 episode 13 if anyone is interested, entitled a History Channel Thanksgiving.

edit on 19-2-2012 by Titen-Sxull because: (no reason given)

Hmmm......so brute force and human ingenuity can cut through granite, marble, and limestone?

The Great Pyramid:

estimated weight- 6.5 million tons/ contains 2.3 million blocks of stone/ some stones weighed as much as 50 tons

Originally posted by ButterCookie
Hmmm......so brute force and human ingenuity can cut through granite, marble, and limestone?

Of course brute force and ingenuity can do this.

Limestone, granite and marble were all carved by hand by Greeks and Romans. Are you going to next say the aliens helped them too?

Harte

reply to post by Harte


I have long been an admirer of your opinions and views on a number of subjects brought up on these boards.
What is your opinion of Christopher Dunn's theory that huge faces of Ramses, carved from solid granite were, in his opinion, machine tooled. An short informative doco is available here:

youtu.be...

Much appreciated in advance.

Originally posted by OzTiger
reply to post by Harte

 

I have long been an admirer of your opinions and views on a number of subjects brought up on these boards.
What is your opinion of Christopher Dunn's theory that huge faces of Ramses, carved from solid granite were, in his opinion, machine tooled. An short informative doco is available here:

youtu.be...

Much appreciated in advance.

I appreciate being appreciated, especially here where I often suspect no one actually has read what I've written (since they seem to remain blissfully unaware of most of the facts I've pointed out at ATS hundreds of times over.)
Dunn's machinery ideas are hogwash, of course.

Plenty of classical sculptors carved near-perfectly symmetric faces and thousands of other things.
Check out Michaelangelo's face on his David sculpture:



He didn't have any machines to do this with.

Dunn is just a sensationalist looking for a buck, IMO. His claims about machining on stones in the G.P. are ludicrous. The Egyptians left behind all the evidence we need to determine their means of cutting and shaping stone, be it granite, limestone, or diorite.

Harte

The statue of David's face is not symmetrical at all, look at the hair, look at the eyes.
At least respond with something convincing haha.
Ahhh, the straws people grasp at sometimes.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


I think you may have missed my point a bit, as a surveyor I can attest that when a giant building like a sjyscraper is going up there is alot of pre-construction work that has to be done by one or more survey crews. The equipment used to do this is accurate to within half a thumbnail so its very expensive and sophisticated. Everything HAS to be very exact especially on the ground level and foundation work and while it can be done with a manual TOPCON instrument most survey companies use GPS. And for all their preciseness in putting up modern-day buildings whatever they used had to be even more accurate for laying out the great pyramids. When I think about just the layout and prep work that went into something like the giza complex, it would have been absolutely maddening for any modern day survey crew let alone one of primitive means. I'm not saying that aliens built the pyramids, maybe there was "lost knowledge" or a more sophisticated global civilization back in the day. I don't think it a far-fetched idea that humanity has gone through cycles of ignorance and enlightenment in our 250,000 years here. Just look at all the advancements thats happened in the last 200 years or so. But to me, its obvious some kind of help was gotten from somewhere. Plum-bobs and squares are not enough to survey anything like this.

reply to post by Cancerwarrior

When I think about just the layout and prep work that went into something like the giza complex, it would have been absolutely maddening for any modern day survey crew let alone one of primitive means.

I don't know what the Giza plateau looked like when they began construction, it was around about 2500 BC, so I really can't say what those planning the projects were thinking.

maybe there was "lost knowledge" or a more sophisticated global civilization back in the day

The idea is far more plausible than aliens I'll give you that. The pyramids are indeed a remarkable feat of engineering and building especially given the amount of time in which they were purportedly constructed. Lost knowledge is the more plausible of the two, or perhaps the people back then were just top-of-the-line on both the labor side and the preparation side. I once watched a documentary about how beer changed the world, in it they talk about how Egyptian workers were actually paid their wages in beer in some cases. The beer back then was rich with carbs/natural sugar and gave them a lot of energy. So perhaps beer is the secret that built the pyramids

reply to post by ButterCookie


I'm pretty sure they had chisels and various other tools as well but yes, brute force and ingenuity are capable of manufacturing any of the monuments ancient astronaut proponents lay at the feet of their imaginary ETs.