2000 Year-old NEWSFLASH! Anti-homosexuality is Anti-Christianity; More Accurately Pro-Judaism.

Originally posted by intrepid
reply to post by aero56

 

Yes they did. Homosexuality was alive and well back then. Sodom and Gomorrah(Genesis, WAY before Christ) are used by the religious to show that god wants nothing to do with gays. It wasn't being gay that condemned those cities though. It was their lack of righteousness. They were "godless".

They were not destroyed just for being Godless. 99.99% of the population of the world was Godless at the time Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed.

Genesis 19

4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, [even] the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where [are] the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

Consider that the sin of homosexuality was so horrid that Lot offered to allow the men of Sodom to rape his virginal daughters rather then molest the angels under his roof.

8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as [is] good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

I should say God's thoughts on homosexuality are quite clear. That being said, notice that GOD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. He did not commend Abraham to do so. Actually, had there been 20 righteous men in Sodom, Sodom could have been spared.

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
Consider that the sin of homosexuality was so horrid that Lot offered to allow the men of Sodom to rape his virginal daughters rather then molest the angels under his roof.

I was ready for this one. So god is OK with fornication if it suits his purpose? No logic there.

Actually, had there been 20 righteous men in Sodom, Sodom could have been spared.

Right. It doesn't say 20 righteous STRAIGHT men. Thus they were dispatched because they were godless.

I still didn't see what I asked for. Jesus in his own words condemning homosexuality. Got any?

Originally posted by aero56
reply to post by MaryStillToe

 

Then why does Jesus tell his followers they must "hate" their family in order to follow him? Pretty strong word if you ask me. He said he came to cause division. Does this sound like a man of love?

You misunderstand what Jesus is saying there. We are to love God/Jesus so much, so strongly, that the love we bear our families would be like hate in comparison.

Matthew 10:37

He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

reply to post by intrepid


Give me a minute, I had not gotten that far. If you couldn't tell I was going in order. I am not that fast. If you want chapter and verse(which I have been providing for stuff as I go anyway) it takes time.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776


Christ died for all mankind. Every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. If every tongue is going to confess that, then they will be saved. Some have said that yeah, they will confess when it's too late......that doesn't even make sense. If they confess it, then they know who He is, and will be saved. If they confess under duress, and then are punished in some non state of a burning hell, then what Christ did on the cross meant nothing.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776


Deriving that homosexuality is immoral as a sole message of the stories of Sodom and Gomorrah is simply ridiculous. They came up to the house and asked to RAPE THEM. Anyone with a brain can tell you that making someone do sexual acts against their will is far worse than doing it between consenting adults. The word homosexual does not appear in this story until the 1950s. It's just a bunch of fabricated crap from corrupted religious leaders. Period.

It's absolutely disgusting that you listened to your preacher spit out this nonsense and just accepted it as knowledge. You are free, do not let the corrupt "teachers" misguide you. Jesus speaks very clearly about these corrupt religious leaders and their agendas to derive from the point of Christianity: God's children living together in love, free of judgment from eachother, harmony. With forgiveness for sins as sins are the business of God and man, and nobody else.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776


Do you think this sounds like a man of love? To me it sounds like a pretty arrogant self loving individual.

Originally posted by TheOrangeBrood
Jesus speaks very clearly about these corrupt religious leaders and their agendas to derive from the point of Christianity

Yup. He goes on about that at length. But no mention that gays are bad. Go figure.

Dear Jesus,,, I know you read ATS,, so I am writing you here, so some of your followers can see that you Do Work In Mysterious Ways.

Anyway, Remember when I was having such a hard time being Christian when I was a teenager? And how I prayed every day for almost 10 years for you to 'heal' me and lead me where you wanted me to be to do the most good with my life?
Well, again, I want to thank you Jesus. Thank you , Thank You, Thank you for leading me to where I am today.
I know we both agree, that since I accepted Myself,,, as You made me,,,, Just as I am,, like in the Hymn we sang in church,, I have become a whole person.

And you helped ,,, so much,,, by leading me Out of Temptation,,, err,, i mean "Christianity" into the more spiritual way of walking with you Lord as a Born Again Pagan. Thank the Goddess Sophia!
Once I really read the Bible for about the 50th time or so,,, it really sunk in, that the Practices of the Ancient Jews, and Christians was really based in Pagan Mystery schools, and Egyptian rituals,,, such as baptism, circumcision and recognition of the feminine as the Catholics copy the worship of Isis,,, well it sunk in that being a Pagan is much more in line with what You, Jesus, were talking about to those foolish fisherman. They didn't get the parables,,, but I do. and so much more!!!
Thanks again, so much Jesus, for leading me Out of Temptation and away from the Evil of those Abramhamic based cults.
Sorry that your sacrifice meant so little to those you supposedly came to save,,,,, I got what you were saying.
The Kingdom of Heaven is Within,
Love God
And to Love my Neighbor as I love Myself,,,,,, I get it.
Thanks for letting me Have the Eyes to See, that Human Institutions only profit the Money Changing Prophets,,, not the humans you really came to help.

See You Soon, (Just Joking,,, I know what you meant)
Love
EarthCitizen23

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by TheOrangeBrood
Jesus speaks very clearly about these corrupt religious leaders and their agendas to derive from the point of Christianity

Yup. He goes on about that at length. But no mention that gays are bad. Go figure.

The whole concept of "sexual immorality" in general is pretty obsolete, as I see it. The premise is that God made man and woman and gave them reproductive organs to "go forth and populate the Earth"....

...Well, the Earth is populated, mission accomplished. And now we have all these fetishes and people having sex with inanimate objects; it seems pretty obvious to me that there's a natural phenomenon trying to stop us from quintupling our population in less than a century... again. We simply don't have the resources to support more population growth, and the zealots procreators aren't exactly helping. I mean, look at India.

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
Consider that the sin of homosexuality was so horrid that Lot offered to allow the men of Sodom to rape his virginal daughters rather then molest the angels under his roof.

I was ready for this one.

So god is OK with fornication if it suits his purpose? No logic there.

No, Lot was making this call. Not God.

Actually, had there been 20 righteous men in Sodom, Sodom could have been spared.

Right. It doesn't say 20 righteous STRAIGHT men. Thus they were dispatched because they were godless.

Straight is implied, or at least non-sinful.

I still didn't see what I asked for. Jesus in his own words condemning homosexuality. Got any?

To answer your question no specific sermon or story that Jesus may have given about specific homosexual behavior is found in Scripture. Nor does the Bible specifically use the word "homosexual" or "gay" or "faggot" or any other appellation that we would recognize in scripture. But an argument from silence would be wrong. The Bible does not record that Jesus ever mentioned rape, incest, pedophilia, or other blatant sins by name either. But just because Jesus does not mention them, does not imply that we should commit these offenses against God and each other.

Jesus is very clear on the proper marriage relationship as mentioned in

Matthew 19:4-5:
"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh"

Jesus was also very clear about the concept of sexual immorality been an evil thought from within one own heart

Mark 7:21:
"For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery"

Additionaly Jesus did not come to abolish the law but fulfill it. While Jesus abolished the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament the moral laws of the Old Testament remain applicable.

The Bible also contains specific references to sexual immorality here are some examples; in fact in the Old Testament it was so serious it was a capital offense.

Leviticus 18:22
"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Leviticus 20:13
"'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

I Cor 6:9-10
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God"

Jude 1:7
"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire"

So, was Jesus supposed to address each and every single possible sin by name before you would understand the intent? Or could it be that homosexuals(and all other sinners to be sure) are reaching for any possible justification?

reply to post by sonofliberty1776


In other words... no. Jesus didn't say homosexuality was bad. The rest is your conjecture. Which is what religion has been doing for 2000 years.

Edit to add: He DID go an at length about false prophets and the religious leaders. Maybe THIS is what we should be focusing on.

Originally posted by aero56
reply to post by sonofliberty1776

 

Christ died for all mankind. Every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. If every tongue is going to confess that, then they will be saved. Some have said that yeah, they will confess when it's too late......that doesn't even make sense. If they confess it, then they know who He is, and will be saved. If they confess under duress, and then are punished in some non state of a burning hell, then what Christ did on the cross meant nothing.

That is a misquote of Romans 14:11.

Romans 14:11
For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Put it in context. This is talking about the final judgment. By then, you have already made your choice. It is too late then.

Originally posted by aero56
reply to post by sonofliberty1776

 

Do you think this sounds like a man of love? To me it sounds like a pretty arrogant self loving individual.

Put in context, yes it sounds like exactly what Jesus wants from us.
"I am the Lord thy God, Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

"You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

"You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me"

Idolatry comes in many forms. Worship of money, worship of status, worship of anything other than GOD. Loving anything or anyone more than God is a form of idolatry.

Originally posted by intrepid
reply to post by sonofliberty1776

 

In other words... no. Jesus didn't say homosexuality was bad. The rest is your conjecture. Which is what religion has been doing for 2000 years.

Neither did he say Rape is Evil do not do it. Neither did he specifically claim pedophilia is evil or sinful. They are also forms of sexual immorality. Do you thus claim they are now acceptable?

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
Matthew 19:4-5:
"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh"

Can you please stop saying this as if it is relevant? He is talking about adultery and this doesn't even remotely relate. Be happy that this mod isn't snipping it for being completely off-topic. If you're going to be the literal-police on the "male and female" term as if he isn't just describing the time when God created man and woman (which is a leap to say the least), then I hope you don't masturbate or use birth control, neither of those are the opposite gender from you.

Jesus was also very clear about the concept of sexual immorality been an evil thought from within one own heart

Mark 7:21:
"For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery"

Lack of point.

Additionaly Jesus did not come to abolish the law but fulfill it. While Jesus abolished the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament the moral laws of the Old Testament remain applicable.

The Bible also contains specific references to sexual immorality here are some examples; in fact in the Old Testament it was so serious it was a capital offense.

Leviticus 18:22
"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Leviticus 20:13
"'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Leviticus also outlines Kosher laws, do you follow those as a Christian? How about slavery ethics for your children? This book is a bunch of nearsighted cavemen making up excuses to kill each other at best.

I Cor 6:9-10
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God"

and the version before the 50s:

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Jude 1:7
"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire"

Again, If you actually think that homosexuality is more evil than rape from this story, you are shallow and believe what you want and not what makes sense, and that's all there is to it.

So, was Jesus supposed to address each and every single possible sin by name before you would understand the intent? Or could it be that homosexuals(and all other sinners to be sure) are reaching for any possible justification?

Jesus never addressed homosexuality because it does not affect the society he was involved in in any negative way whatsoever. It wasn't separating God's children in any form, or he would have brought it up; he doesn't. He wasn't brainless; 2000 years later, many people that claim to follow him, however, cannot claim the same about their own intelligence, clearly. Just because something is "of sin" doesn't mean that we can't forgive, love, and accept people who subscribe to such things and provide them with equal opportunities should we have power over them somehow, in our "humility".

reply to post by TheOrangeBrood

nor effeminate,

You do understand that this is a description of homosexuals? Don't you?

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
reply to post by TheOrangeBrood

 

nor effeminate,

You do understand that this is a description of homosexuals? Don't you?

No. That's a stereotype. A bad one too.

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776

Originally posted by intrepid
reply to post by sonofliberty1776

 

In other words... no. Jesus didn't say homosexuality was bad. The rest is your conjecture. Which is what religion has been doing for 2000 years.

Neither did he say Rape is Evil do not do it. Neither did he specifically claim pedophilia is evil or sinful. They are also forms of sexual immorality. Do you thus claim they are now acceptable?

Matthew 19:19
Honor your father and mother,’[a] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”

Jesus covered everything that negatively affects other people with this one, including rape and pedophilia. Does not apply to homosexuality, however, for obvious reasons. Consent wins the battle

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
reply to post by TheOrangeBrood

 

nor effeminate,

You do understand that this is a description of homosexuals? Don't you?

ef·fem·i·nate
   /adj. ɪˈfɛmənɪt; v. ɪˈfɛməˌneɪt/ Show Spelled [adj. ih-fem-uh-nit; v. ih-fem-uh-neyt] Show IPA adjective, verb, -nat·ed, -nat·ing.
–adjective
1.
(of a man or boy) having traits, tastes, habits, etc., traditionally considered feminine, as softness or delicacy.
2.
characterized by excessive softness, delicacy, self-indulgence, etc.: effeminate luxury.

Woops, you don't know what you're talking about... again.

I know many effeminate men that are extremely religious as if it's their job to love God and preach the Bible. You'd be surprised how many effeminate non-gays you meet in ministry school.