2000 Year-old NEWSFLASH! Anti-homosexuality is Anti-Christianity; More Accurately Pro-Judaism.

So much arbitrary, "moral", hating on ATS as of late.

Let's get a few points out of the way first, for clarity's sake, should you even care:

I have no fuss with Jewish people here, this thread is being created because of people trying to claim some sort of Christian moral high-ground over homosexuals by condemning their feelings and actions and making them feel like they are lesser than heterosexuals.

I am an atheist by education. Two private Christian primary schools "Baptist ("Protestant") and Catholic", one of which we read the entire Bible fully by the sixth grade. I attended a catholic High School, I had one deeply religious parent and one passively religious parent. I grew up thinking I was Christian, was encouraged and enrolled in Ministry school. It wasn't until my second-last semester that an instructor encouraged me to question my faith. I eventually quit and enrolled in Web Design.

Anyways, Christianity is the belief that Christ is the Son of God, and as such, a servant sent by God to show the people His teachings, a vessel to instill the moral fiber of a shaky ancient-Mesopotamian culture. Anyways, here we go, these are all quotes from Jesus Christ:

Mark 12: 28-31

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'

The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is NO COMMANDMENT GREATER THAN THESE."

"Love your neighbor as yourself", somehow the most misunderstood commandment concerning this issue, yet just as clear as the next.

John 8:4,5

and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery.

In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?"

Pray, does this not sound familiar to the kind of arguments that "Christians" come up with against homosexuality regarding harsh punishments for homosexuality in Levitican Law?

When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

This is not a very cryptic metaphor.

Getting beyond the obvious ones, if a maintenance of "but they are the enemy, the indulgers of sin" is lurking in the ignorance from which it spawned:

Matthew 5: 43-44

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'

But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

...

John 3:10-16

"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things?

I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.

Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

I'll invite any arguments for now.

Love the sinner, hate the sin. There is nothing more or less sinful about homosexuality than any other sin. Sin = Sin. There are no greater or lesser sins in the eyes of God. Lying, theft, murder, sex outside of marriage(homo or hetero) it is all the same.

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
Love the sinner, hate the sin. There is nothing more or less sinful about homosexuality than any other sin. Sin = Sin. There are no greater or lesser sins in the eyes of God. Lying, theft, murder, sex outside of marriage(homo or hetero) it is all the same.

Let's not forget protected sex, eating McDonalds, and Laser hair removal.

Most things Christians do are anti-Christianity. The number of people who are actually christian is statistically insignificant. Most "christians" just call themselves christian so they can "go to heaven." I hate to break it to them, but if there's a good these people probably won't be going to heaven. The people that actually listen to Jesus and follow his teachings are pretty much non-existent.
I agree with you though. Jesus told people to mind their damned-business. No one listened to him.
Following your logic OP, anti-abortion folks are anti-christian as well. And I have to say that the logic is sound.

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
Love the sinner, hate the sin. There is nothing more or less sinful about homosexuality than any other sin. Sin = Sin. There are no greater or lesser sins in the eyes of God. Lying, theft, murder, sex outside of marriage(homo or hetero) it is all the same.

Wrong! Killing is the worst sin of them all.
Reminds me of the person who I overheard saying tax evasion is the same as murder since they are both felonies. I did a irl /facepalm. Murder is much worse than stealing, adultery, and evading taxes. If there is a god, these actions would not all be the same in his eyes.

I don't think we need passages from the bible to establish that there are religious people who use said book as an excuse for hatred, ignorance, intolerance and bigotry. Like those of centuries ago, if they could justify it with murder, I have no doubt that some of these fools would... like we've seen with some of the anti abortion violence from christian groups and people over the years. Eric Rudolph being a prime example. If that man wasn't brainwashed by religion and blinded by hatred, I'll be monkeys uncle.

IRM :shk:

reply to post by sonofliberty1776


But the problem with that is that the very concept of sin and its relation to original sin is Christian in nature..
There is so much more to a rich life then walking the well trodden path that leads to the wide gate
search in side yourself with out objectifying it by using the bible as a marker of success.
then you truely know yourself and the not the path others wish you to follow.
great thread btw op, it still amazes me how many "belivers" say all the bad bits in the bible aren't cryptic but the ones you used as examples are...
Im not a Christian in the sense that i belive the only way to the father is via jesus, but i do think the book has merits in how to treat others with respect and dignity.
peace on your journey.
all roads lead home

Originally posted by InfaRedMan
I don't think we need passages from the bible to establish that there are religious people who use said book as an excuse for hatred, ignorance, intolerance and bigotry. Like those of centuries ago, if they could justify it with murder, I have no doubt that some of these fools would... like we've seen with some of the anti abortion violence from christian groups and people over the years. Eric Rudolph being a prime example. If that man wasn't brainwashed by religion and blinded by hatred, I'll be monkeys uncle.

IRM :shk:

When using the book as an excuse to exercise the above words, most (if not all) of it stems from the Hebrew Bible ("Old Testament"). It's not Christian, it's Jewish. Why is it included? Probably because predicts his coming, is useful for some back-story, and some of it has good teachings, and that good still applies, but not some of its "laws" (like stoning prostitutes and so on) and the things that contradict with what Christ taught.

The OT is speckled with hate, bigotry, ignorance, and intolerance, as you said. It is not a proper representation of Christianity because it's not Christian. It does a good job at confusing people though.

Originally posted by Ghost375
anti-abortion folks are anti-christian as well. And I have to say that the logic is sound.

Can't agree more. Although, I do feel that the subject of mutual parental authority is an entirely different subject that isn't entertained enough in actual society when it comes to that topic.

Originally posted by Ghost375

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
Love the sinner, hate the sin. There is nothing more or less sinful about homosexuality than any other sin. Sin = Sin. There are no greater or lesser sins in the eyes of God. Lying, theft, murder, sex outside of marriage(homo or hetero) it is all the same.

Wrong! Killing is the worst sin of them all.
Reminds me of the person who I overheard saying tax evasion is the same as murder since they are both felonies. I did a irl /facepalm. Murder is much worse than stealing, adultery, and evading taxes. If there is a god, these actions would not all be the same in his eyes.

When it comes to defining sin, my opinion and your opinion do not matter. Only God can define sin. God sees all sin as equally damning. Sorry, not my rule. I don't get to make the rules. If I made the rules, pedophilia would be the ultimate sin punished by immediate damnation; do not pass go do not collect $200. Murder and rape would be next. But, my opinion is irrelevant. God cannot abide the presence of sin, or more properly, sin(and thus sinners) cannot abide the presence of God. It doesn't matter how "small" the sin in our minds, no matter how we justify it. Sin is sin.

reply to post by sprocket2cog


You have a very progressive and enlightened belief system. I sincerely hope that it helps you when the time comes. However the road to salvation is not wide and well traveled. That is another road entirely and it is paved with good intentions.

Originally posted by TheOrangeBrood

Originally posted by Ghost375
anti-abortion folks are anti-christian as well. And I have to say that the logic is sound.

Can't agree more. Although, I do feel that the subject of mutual parental authority is an entirely different subject that isn't entertained enough in actual society when it comes to that topic.

edit on 3-6-2011 by TheOrangeBrood because: (no reason given)

That is true. Murdering murderers, while satisfying to our personal sense of justice and vengeance, is very un-Christian. The Lord Jesus made his beliefs on the death penalty clear. Though these doctors murder children in wholesale lots, it is still wrong to murder them.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776


thank you for your kind words, i have much to learn and i am still only human and will undoubtedly make mistakes.
all i know is that i will stand in the darkness as a light to guide anyone who asks towards the crossroads, the path they choose to follow to the summit is theirs, the long easy path or the short harder path, i can only show someone the door, they must knock and open it themselves.
travel well , i hope to see you on the road and may you reach the place you seek.

Originally posted by sprocket2cog
reply to post by sonofliberty1776

 

thank you for your kind words, i have much to learn and i am still only human and will undoubtedly make mistakes.
all i know is that i will stand in the darkness as a light to guide anyone who asks towards the crossroads, the path they choose to follow to the summit is theirs, the long easy path or the short harder path, i can only show someone the door, they must knock and open it themselves.
travel well , i hope to see you on the road and may you reach the place you seek.

I see my road, and you see yours. The roads have different destinations, unless my understanding is totally wrong.

Originally posted by TheOrangeBrood
Who would've thought that no self-righteous Christianesques would even show up to an argument that they can't polarize to the point of sheer ignorant idiocy.

edit on 4-6-2011 by TheOrangeBrood because: (no reason given)

You're ignorant of scripture. Read Romans, read the book of John, etcetera. Homosexuality is clearly condemned in the NT and you are heavily discouraged from sinning. To the point where it says none who know Him can sin.

Originally posted by 547000
. To the point where it says none who know Him can sin.

I am not aware of that verse. Can you give me chapter and verse? Peter knew him well and fell prey to sin. We all fall short of the glory of God. There is none who is without sin, no not one. The difference is that we repent and ask forgiveness. We try to live sin free lives, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. We sinners are like recovering alcoholics. You cannot say "I will never drink again" you try to go one hour, then one day at a time. When you fall, you seek his forgiveness; then you get back up and try again.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776


my road has no destination..
i see the roads winding up the mountain and the back down again.
its hard to put into words what i know.
but i see a never ending cycle of energy flowing from one to the other, think ying yang and you might see what i mean a little.
we all must take the fall before we can climb to the top, its part of the plan.
and when we get to the top, what then ? do we wait to be pushed off or do we dive head first back into the aybss.
i choose to dive in and seek out those that others would say are too lost to bother about.
after al i think thats wat jesus would have done..
leave no man behind.
i chose to be the rear guard its my station i choose, i will get to the same place you go to one day, but even then it will just be a vist as the work is never done.
i hope you see what im saying and by no means do i wish to deviate you from your path. but i just see that there is no good or evil in my minds eye anymore, there just is. we are all the same , children of god and there are many here who will stay till the lights go out on the stage before we go home.
as even after the curtains close theres work to do to clean up for the next performance.
its the person under the mask of reality that matters. sometimes good people play nasty characters in the play..it dosnt make them evil just good actors..

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776

Originally posted by 547000
. To the point where it says none who know Him can sin.

I am not aware of that verse. Can you give me chapter and verse? Peter knew him well and fell prey to sin. We all fall short of the glory of God. There is none who is without sin, no not one. The difference is that we repent and ask forgiveness. We try to live sin free lives, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. We sinners are like recovering alcoholics. You cannot say "I will never drink again" you try to go one hour, then one day at a time. When you fall, you seek his forgiveness; then you get back up and try again.

Read the Book of John. If you confess your sins you will be forgiven.


Perhaps it was the epistles of John. That quote left a lasting impression on me.

Originally posted by 547000

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776

Originally posted by 547000
. To the point where it says none who know Him can sin.

I am not aware of that verse.

Read the Book of John. If you confess your sins you will be forgiven.

I have read the New Testament many times, I do not remember that quote. Neither does it show up in any of my concordances. It also seems to go against the whole tenet of Christs ministry. If sinners cannot know him, how can he save us?

That quote left a lasting impression on me.

I will continue my search, but a quote like that certainly would stick with you due to the apparent dichotomy it would seem to represent.