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Originally posted by xuenchen
Originally posted by Frira
this is what i am talking about.
perhaps Frira can elaborate in normal dialog.
many "people" are now intimidated and wonder what is going on !
some good reasons would be well received.
some examples of the "shoes you walk in" may have merrit.edit on Jun-04-2011 by xuenchen because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by AngryOne
reply to post by Unrivaled1
First of all, there most certainly is a racial element to the Jews. This can be verified by simply looking at them. I still insist that this thread is not "racist", though.
As for your other concerns: Agreed. Your earlier post got removed as off topic because it technically was off topic; still, you make valid points. We should NOT expect any answers or cooperation from the staff, though. That simply will not happen. I know better by now.
Now as for how one is to find this thread, you simply go to "Forum", then to "Skunk Works", and it's found right there. There's still some obvious suppression, though - the fact that it got moved to Skunk Works to begin with is really nothing short of outrageous, and it WAS apparently unjustly booted from at least one section of this site (aside from General Conspiracies, of course, where it originated). But if you ask me, this all just goes to validate my underlying point.
reply to post by meathed
LOL! EXACTLY what I was thinking! I mean......WHAT!?!?edit on 4-6-2011 by AngryOne because: Added something to the first reply.
Originally posted by JR MacBeth
The whole topic of "race" is rather complicated, and most people only have a general impression of what it's about.
The most important thing about it isn't DNA actually. Once people look into it, they find it's much more about "identity". That's key in understanding the issue.
So, while the concept of "race" itself is somewhat flawed, being more of a social construct, when it comes down to it, that doesn't necessarily negate genetic aspects.
The Jews seem to feel this way, even if we might not agree. In one of Rabbi Stephen Wise's more famous statements, we find out how many Jews feel about this idea:
"Hitler was right in one thing. He calls the Jewish people a race, and we are a race."
I realize, he's a bit dated, but even Netanyahu has on more than one occasion referred to "his people" as a "race".
As far as the "racial component" being important? Well, yes, it could very well be important, at least in the sense that if you have a group of people who honestly believe they are genetically "superior" to others, than that can express itself in ways most of us today might not like too much.
I suppose it's easy to think of "white" people this way, or Nazis, but there are even black people out there who may have adopted this way of thinking (Nation of Islam, for example).
So, probably best not to casually brush aside the issue of race just yet.
JR
Originally posted by Frira
Alright. My post removed for being off-topic may have been off-topic, and I might be conclusion jumping. So I will elaborate in normal dialogue.
If you discuss any group of people with an accusation it is very difficult to read it without recognizing a negative stereotype. I begin with a person, not a group, in my own thoughts-- and when I see a post clearly branding a group, I see a post which in incapable of objectivity, and since it is a negative stereotype, it is hate.
People ally themselves with groups often because, without support, they fear they cannot succeed. And when an individual who has not allied themselves sees that, he or she might be expected to feel resentment. But when that resentment comes out with blanket accusations presented with assumptions of malevolent motive, the appearance of hate is hard to deny. Thus my comment, "Who gave you permission to hate?"
Frira: I do not wish to digress into a discussion of my anger (the part of my post which had said, "Look who thinks she's angry! Try walking a few yards in my shoes."); but I can relate to to the powerlessness against oppression-- the feeling that my life would have known justice if it were not for the powerful "others." But to identify a group, in the instance of this thread, "The Jews," as culpable, is simply unproductive and, intentional or not, harmful to the innocent.
Frira: If a Jewish business man succeeds, why must that be a sign of collusion with mal-intent? Would we apply the same assumptions when we see anyone else who might be assigned as being part of a religious or ethnic group? Would we apply that to a member of our own group? Of course not, because most of us hold double standards-- it takes both introspection and wisdom to root out such double standards from ourselves-- and the process never really ends.
Frira: Born only fifteen years after WWII, I am aware that my sympathies do have me feel as if I need to protect the Jews. I have something close to a paternal instinct for them as a group-- admitted stereotype, but it is a benevolent one. And somewhat reinforced by my personal relations with the several Jews I have known, and with whom I attended school.
Thanks, JR, for pointing these things out to me.
Who am I to argue with Rabbi Stephen Wise and Netanyahu if they wish to call their people the "Jewish Race"?
Of course, I'll argue because I think they are wrong.
Calling the Jews a "race" is misleading. Use the word "race" and you are automatically talking about physical anthropology.
The Jews are a group of people of varying races who share a certain history & cultural/religious traditions.
Originally posted by AuranVector
I went back to re-read the OP. I missed the negative stereotype you mention. I did not see branding of a particular group in the OP.
Me: People ally themselves with groups often because, without support, they fear they cannot succeed. And when an individual who has not allied themselves sees that, he or she might be expected to feel resentment. But when that resentment comes out with blanket accusations presented with assumptions of malevolent motive, the appearance of hate is hard to deny. Thus my comment, "Who gave you permission to hate?"
AuranVector: So you're saying that anyone who points out that the Jewish Elite control virtually everything of importance in the US, this must be the result of resentment or envy because one is not a member of the power group?
AuranVector: Pointing out that key positions of power in the US are occupied by Jews is not a "blanket accusation."
When the influence is as prevalent or pervasive as it is in this case, assuming a malevolent motive is not difficult (if not always fair to each individual).
Why are all these high-powered positions occupied by Jews? It's easy to entertain thoughts of conspiracy -- especially if you've looked at the role the Rothschilds have played in history. I'm assuming that you have NOT looked.
Also your "Who gave you permission to hate?" is a bizarre statement. Why does anyone need permission to feel a particular emotion?
AuranVector: I will agree that it could be harmful to the innocent. After all, I do not believe the majority of Jews are part of the conspiracy. However, discussion of the plots of the Jewish Elite can be very productive and enlightening to people who want to understand what is really going on in their world.
Frira: If a Jewish business man succeeds, why must that be a sign of collusion with mal-intent? Would we apply the same assumptions when we see anyone else who might be assigned as being part of a religious or ethnic group? Would we apply that to a member of our own group? Of course not, because most of us hold double standards-- it takes both introspection and wisdom to root out such double standards from ourselves-- and the process never really ends.
AuranVector: This shows a real misunderstanding. Most of us are discussing the Jewish power players, not the average successful Jew.
Frira: Born only fifteen years after WWII, I am aware that my sympathies do have me feel as if I need to protect the Jews. I have something close to a paternal instinct for them as a group-- admitted stereotype, but it is a benevolent one. And somewhat reinforced by my personal relations with the several Jews I have known, and with whom I attended school.
AuranVector: I think I understand what you're saying here. I grew up in a family that had great respect for Jews, for their accomplishments. Friends of the family. And we were also aware of their history of gross persecutions.
I think you misunderstand the purpose of this thread.
Originally posted by Frira
It is difficult for me! Broken, marginalized, persecuted and/or oppressed persons tend to pursue writing and other expressive arts. The media and film industry seem quite natural if one begins with a compassionate questioning.
Originally posted by Unrivaled1
Thanks for the reply and also for concurring with my points. As for the click on forums then click on skunk works and it is right there, i ask you to try doing that when you are not signed in! Please tell me if you can spot it? Because for the life of me i can't. That was 1 of the points i was trying to make.
Originally posted by JR MacBeth
Probably most people would agree with you, but many Jews do literally believe there is something special in their genes.
MacBeth: If we were to look for something more accurate, we probably should use a term like "subculture".
Just as there might be a "Black" subculture in America, and other nations, and a "Hispanic" subculture, so might there be a "Jewish" subculture.
Going one step away from "race", we might even be able to speak of something like a Manhattan/NYC subculture, or a Southern (USA) subculture. Maybe someone could use the term about a certain "corporate" subculture, or Mormon subculture (going to the religious end of the spectrum).
Anyway, enough of that. We do have to respect how people self-identify, for better or worse, and if there happens to be complications as a result, then we should be able to at least talk about them.
Good to get things more clarified AuranVector. This is one that continues to confuse a lot of people, hopefully someone will get something of value out of these ideas.
JR
Originally posted by blueorder
Originally posted by Frira
It is difficult for me! Broken, marginalized, persecuted and/or oppressed persons tend to pursue writing and other expressive arts. The media and film industry seem quite natural if one begins with a compassionate questioning.
So "THE JEWS" or "SOME JEWS" are broken, marginalized, persecuted and/or oppressed................in the US.................ha haha ha, good stuff, I look forward to more one linersedit on 4-6-2011 by blueorder because: (no reason given)
Still, tThe tone of this thread is frightening. The ease with which so many who posts to it seem untroubled by the concept of "the Jewish people" such and such is frightening because it is, indeed, dangerous. It has been historically proven to be dangerous.
And for the record, I say that the Jewish are set apart, are indeed, chosen people. It is something I have perceived in my years and experience-- it is something I wish I had within me. I envy it, but rather than resent it, I love them for being more beautifully human than I am. Again, my own stereotype manifests itself-- surely they cannot all be so wonderful?
Originally posted by Frira
Non sequitur. The thought that because some person or group has control it follows that the intent is malevolent-- is not a logical process-- it is a resentful one, and the resentment has already been expressed in the words, "The Jewish people have a stranglehold on..."
Frira: It is difficult for me! Broken, marginalized, persecuted and/or oppressed persons tend to pursue writing and other expressive arts. The media and film industry seem quite natural if one begins with a compassionate questioning.
AuranVector: Why are all these high-powered positions occupied by Jews? It's easy to entertain thoughts of conspiracy -- especially if you've looked at the role the Rothschilds have played in history. I'm assuming that you have NOT looked.
Frira: I have not. What would I find?
Frira: Still, tThe tone of this thread is frightening. The ease with which so many who posts to it seem untroubled by the concept of "the Jewish people" such and such is frightening because it is, indeed, dangerous. It has been historically proven to be dangerous.
Frira: And for the record, I say that the Jewish are set apart, are indeed, chosen people. It is something I have perceived in my years and experience-- it is something I wish I had within me. I envy it, but rather than resent it, I love them for being more beautifully human than I am. Again, my own stereotype manifests itself-- surely they cannot all be so wonderful?
Originally posted by JR MacBeth
Yeah Frira, you're definitely not in Kansas anymore!
But, being in Texas puts you right there in the Bible-Belt. Not sure if this is where you're coming from, but could explain some of your strong feelings.
Since you're so frightened by this thread, perhaps perceiving too many as some kind of Nazis (that would be "projection"), why not try slowly wading into this subject, that you care so much about, by looking up some good info out there, from Jews.
You can try Jews Against Zionism for starters. Check out what a Rabbi is saying on YouTube, Rabbi Yisroel Weiss. He's not too scary, I don't think.
Lots of books by Norman Finkelstein, he's the son of holocaust survivors. He would very much agree with your point about how dangerous things are getting for his people. Too bad his fellow Jews could care less.
It could take you a long time to get up to speed on some of this stuff, but there are better places to start than an ATS thread that you disagree with from the get-go. Always best to start with people you like, and trust already.
Good luck to you!
JR
AuranVector: Something about this sets off the alarms in my head.edit on 4-6-2011 by AuranVector because: (no reason given)
Something about this sets off the alarms in my head.
Be careful-- it is a dangerous world. Ah! Look! A hockey game is on!
Miko Peled is a peace activist who dares to say in public what others still choose to deny...