Raising gender-neutral or gender-specific kids.....Does it matter?

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes
''fag'', ''homo'', ''poof'', ''girl'' etc. because I transgressed society's code of what's appropriate or acceptable for how a man should look.

edit on 26-5-2011 by Sherlock Holmes because: (no reason given)

None of these terms are at all offensive to children, seriously. Maybe in the 90s... You'd get called far worse gay slurs by the little brats these days for fumbling during a softball game in gym class. If you're growing up in this society and you get offended by those terms easily, you aren't going to last long. If you call anyone these terms that's under 25 these days they'll simply laugh at you and accept the term because it is so overused that it simply means absolutely nothing anymore.

Originally posted by TheOrangeBrood
None of these terms are at all offensive to children, seriously. Maybe in the 90s...

Of course they will be offensive to children.

In an imaginary world where doves fly freely and flowers grow in a longing, painfully beautiful meadow, then these things shouldn't matter.

However, in the real world - rather than a fantasy world - a boy who adopts feminine traits will generally be considered, by his peers, to be a he-she, poof, fag, queer etc.


8 million years of human evolution always slam-dunks 50 years of Political Correctness.

reply to post by Aim64C


I do not disagree with you but its straying from the original question. Start a parenting thread and I'm the first one there. I mentioned mine are 17 and 19, and I'm still waiting for the terrible 2's.

The real question is...
...............................Is it ok to not tell people what the gender of your child is.

The simple answer is yes, its none of their business.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes
None of these terms are at all offensive to children, seriously. Maybe in the 90s...

Originally posted by TheOrangeBrood
Of course they will be offensive to children.

Of course PEOPLE, adults and children will eventually be offended - even I find things offensive - I dont see what it has to do with being genderless

kids get picked on and bullied regardless - kids are cruel - they learn it from the adults imho

I feel offended by a lot of things in this thread alone, but since I'm powerless to change it.... guess I have to GET OVER IT

Its either a boy or a girl. Not an experiment. I'm beginning to smell a reality show deal...I think these parents are right up there with the idiots who hoaxed balloon boy a few years back.

reply to post by joyride0187


Here is the original article that explains things a bit more.

It seems because their older son Jazz was having experiences with gender - - is the reason they decided to let Storm just be just Storm.

www.parentcentral.ca...

Although I forsee a lot of different issues in the future for these children, I ask this:

Does it matter how they raise their children?

Will it change how you raise your children?

(Most important) Will it change how you teach your children to act with others?

I hope not. Most of the lessons that we are supposed to teach our children should really transcend genders.

ie: Honesty, integrity, hard work, thoughtfulness, kindness, etc.

None of these traits care, or are dependant on, gender.

Originally posted by Forevever
Of course PEOPLE, adults and children will eventually be offended - even I find things offensive - I dont see what it has to do with being genderless

''Offended'' was probably the wrong choice of word on my part. ''Hurtful'' would have been more accurate.

A boy being called a girl or a derogatory term for a homosexual will probably not ''offend'' the child because of what the word implies. It will be hurtful because of the broader meaning behind the insult; social exclusion, threat of physical harm, humiliation and confusion.

Originally posted by Forevever
kids get picked on and bullied regardless - kids are cruel - they learn it from the adults imho

Precisely. The potential to bully weaker people and those who are different to us is one of the un-PC elements of human nature.

It doesn't matter how many deluded people want to wish away millions of years of amoral human evolution. The neo-hippie types wishing for a perfect world are doing just that: wishing.

We should accept the immediate real-world around us, not create a world that is an illusionary reality to fit our ideals.

We all accept that children are cruel and that they will pick on those who are different, so why are these ''parents'' creating a bunch of freakoids that may as well walk around carrying large signs saying ''bully me'' and ''exclude me from your social group'' ?

Have you seen how they've made their 5-year-old son look ? When I was a child, there would be no way in a million years I'd be seen hanging around with someone who looked like that. That is the harsh reality.

Of course, now that I'm grown up, I don't care how anyone looks or acts, just so long as they are not harming other people.

But there's the huge difference: when I physically and mentally matured into an adult, I could form a more rational and tolerant approach to life. When I was a physically and mentally immature child, I couldn't.

Those who are defending these ''parents'' are doing so through adult eyes and wishful delusions of how the world should work.

If society develops to accept genderless children, then fine. Modern day society does not accept them, and if we are going to change society, then it's the adults who have to make the change - not child guinea-pigs.

Originally posted by Forevever
I feel offended by a lot of things in this thread alone, but since I'm powerless to change it.... guess I have to GET OVER IT

You're not powerless to change anything - unless it's a physical force of nature.

However, I agree with you that people really need to ''get over it''. People need to be thick-skinned, ignore Political Correctness and adapt to the realities of the world. Some people are just easily offended and perpetually affronted.

In fact, I'm going to start my own one-man crusade ( intentional choice of wording ) against Political Correctness !

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes

Originally posted by TheOrangeBrood
None of these terms are at all offensive to children, seriously. Maybe in the 90s...

Of course they will be offensive to children.

In an imaginary world where doves fly freely and flowers grow in a longing, painfully beautiful meadow, then these things shouldn't matter.

However, in the real world - rather than a fantasy world - a boy who adopts feminine traits will generally be considered, by his peers, to be a he-she, poof, fag, queer etc.


8 million years of human evolution always slam-dunks 50 years of Political Correctness.

You obviously don't know anything about younger generations that you aren't fabricating on the spot. I think its sad that these kids know better than you that crossdressing and homosexaulity are not even remotely synonymous. Kids are much more likely to be made fun of these days for their family's financial status than anything.

None of these terms mean any of the definitions that you are assosciating them with anymore, anyways, according to young people. But I guess since you don't know that... you'd better act like you're right and everyone else is wrong...

How can the same parents who say "don't worry about what other kids think about you" turn around and say "now, conform to these social norms". I think that's a little more confusing than "do what you want, and ignore them".

What you're refusing to acknowledge is that by forcing these social norms on actual gender-confused people, you get the "even my parents think I'm a freak" factor.

That being said, I think it's fine to bring your child up either way, and classing it as "child abuse" on either end of the spectrum can be described as over-dramatic nonsense at best.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes

Have you seen how they've made their 5-year-old son look?

You are missing something.

They did not make their 5 year old son look like anything. They allowed their 5 year old son to be who he is.

It is because of their 5 year old son's "gender experience" - - that they are allowing the new baby to be accepted without a gender label.

They also said they themselves had difficulties accepting their 5 year old son's choices - - but want him to be who he is.

There are now special camps for transgender/inter-sex children. They are who they are.

Originally posted by peck420
Although I forsee a lot of different issues in the future for these children, I ask this:

Does it matter how they raise their children?

Will it change how you raise your children?

(Most important) Will it change how you teach your children to act with others?

I hope not. Most of the lessons that we are supposed to teach our children should really transcend genders.

ie: Honesty, integrity, hard work, thoughtfulness, kindness, etc.

None of these traits care, or are dependant on, gender.

I foresee future issues for every child, regardless - its none of OUR business what the childs gender is - the parents know, and the kid will find it pretty obvious at some point - I think it does matter how we raise our children (basing all of it on your list I've bolded below), I hope it teaches other people something as well

♥ Honesty, integrity, hard work, thoughtfulness, kindness, etc = gender irrelevant ♥ I'm in complete agreement with this list.


reply to post by Annee


isn't it sad that "allowing someone to be who they are with all the respect they deserve" is suddenly being coined an "experiment"

and lately I keep wondering WHY do they so vehemently want to know what the childs gender is.... it can't all be color related really, can it? it seems kinda creepy to me - I don't run around asking everyone what their childs gender is, even when I'm not sure - cause i don't care... its a cute baby, I don't want to date it

Originally posted by Forevever

isn't it sad that "allowing someone to be who they are with all the respect they deserve" is suddenly being coined an "experiment"

and lately I keep wondering WHY do they so vehemently want to know what the childs gender is.... it can't all be color related really, can it? it seems kinda creepy to me - I don't run around asking everyone what their childs gender is, even when I'm not sure - cause i don't care... its a cute baby, I don't want to date it

Yes - it is.

There is no reason anyone needs to know the gender. And the parents said it was only as long as it felt right.

I feel very fortunate that even back in the 50s I had a progressive mom - - who raised me with an open mind and no restrictions on life.

Originally posted by TheOrangeBrood
You obviously don't know anything about younger generations that you aren't fabricating on the spot.

I know plenty about the people who make up the ''younger generations''. Only 10 years ago, in fact, I was also a teenager.

Your use of the phrase ''younger generations'' only highlights your complete misunderstanding of the myriad of views, beliefs and attitudes which people from these generations hold. Your narrow generalisations about the broad workings of any generation only serves to discredit the argument which you are attempting to make.

I'm sorry if my comments on the harsh realities of modern society distress your delicate sensibilities, or upset your precious view on how humans and human society should operate in your ideal world, but to throw your toys out of the pram and to suggest that I'm ''fabricating on the spot'' is very naughty of you.

Originally posted by TheOrangeBrood
I think its sad that these kids know better than you that crossdressing and homosexaulity are not even remotely synonymous.

I can't work out whether you're actually being serious or not.

I never said that cross-dressing and homosexuality are synonymous. Wakey wakey !

Actually read the words that I post ( trust me, it's well worth it ), rather than launching counter-arguments against non-existent arguments which you want me to be making.

The problem is that many children and young adults - unlike you or I - do not generally make mature and logically well thought-out decisions in regards to social norms and social inclusion/exclusion.

Children will always align themselves with a group of other children who share similar physical or social traits, no matter how superficial these traits may be.

The boy/girl physical, cultural and social dichotomy is not going to go away any time soon - if ever. This is patently obvious even at a school level, where boys and girls can still be legally separated into different educational establishments purely on the grounds of their sex.

Your above argument that cross-dressing and homosexuality are different forms of sexual expression becomes completely redundant when you are talking about children interpreting and discerning the differences between the two.

If a child doesn't fall into the socially accepted parameters of how a boy should look, dress or act, then many other children, who are often influential within a group, will bully and socially ostracise a child for this. The knock-on effect to the victim is huge and, in some cases, extremely difficult to recover from, even after entering adulthood.

You don't seriously believe that boys who bully ''girly'' boys, calling them every homophobic slur under the sun, are going to think ''hang on a minute, lads: this boy is a cross-dresser, which means that we can't call him a fag, because the clothes that he wears do not reasonably indicate his sexuality, one way or the other''.

Give me a break !

Originally posted by TheOrangeBrood
Kids are much more likely to be made fun of these days for their family's financial status than anything.

Yeah, because children walk around with their parents' bank statements tattooed on their hand. Maybe they actually pin photocopies of their parents' welfare cheques to their clothing ?

If I didn't know better, I'd say that your claim that children are ''more likely'' to be made fun of because of their family's financial status was ''fabricated on the spot''.

Yeah, that one stung...


Seriously though, the wealth status of a child's family is certainly a factor which could instigate, or contribute to, bullying and ostracisation, but there are at least two important differences which alter the likelihood of being targeted and socially excluded for financial reasons, as opposed to being targeted and socially excluded on the grounds of being ''gay'':

1. Physical indicators v non-physical indicators of differences. The financial affluence of a child's family is a non-physical indicator which is largely unknown to those who may interact with the child on a non-personal basis. This factor is also likely to be an unknown element amongst the child's initial group of potential friends that he or she meets in the normal course of events.

More importantly, physical differences, such as race, sex and - in this case - openly dressing, acting and behaving like a he-she, are not things that you can ''hide'' from your peers, or society in general.

2. The financial status of a child's family does not ruin his, or her, chance of forming friendships. Whilst a child from a less well-off home may be picked upon by some others for that reason, he, or she, can make plenty of friends with other children who share the same financial circumstances.

This is why social exclusion based upon non-physical traits is totally incomparable to the knee-jerk, all too human, prejudiced reality of physical discrimination.


These poor children are being involuntarily guided towards freakdom, whereby they will have no meaningful real-world, organic friendships - except those which involve other freaks from thousands of miles away.

This is purely an unsanctionable case of egotistical, delusional ''parents'' ruining the lives of their children, and using their progeny as a ''fashion statement'' to express their own personally warped, new-age spiritual, mumbo-jumbo.

Forcing children to be social outcasts is clearly child abuse.

Originally posted by TheOrangeBrood
None of these terms mean any of the definitions that you are assosciating them with anymore, anyways, according to young people.

Er.. Yes, they do, actually...

Originally posted by Annee
You are missing something.

They did not make their 5 year old son look like anything.

No, I'm not missing anything.

They are raising their sons as freakoids.

That 5-year-old kid looks like an unpaid extra from the Rocky Horror Picture Show.

Originally posted by Annee
They allowed their 5 year old son to be who he is.

''Who he is'' - say wut ??!!

Did they allow him to consider his options ?

Oh no, they forced their 5-year-old child to adopt the parents' ideology, and they used their own personal ideology to override the needs of their child.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes
I never said that cross-dressing and homosexuality are synonymous. Wakey wakey !

Actually read the words that I post ( trust me, it's well worth it

), rather than launching counter-arguments against non-existent arguments which you want me to be making.

You said that children will call someone wearing different clothes a "fag" or "poof" based on that. Sorry, wrong! They will call them a fag because they dropped the ball in foursquare, or fell off the jungle gym. The term "fag" and "gay" have absolutely nothing to do with either sexual orientation nor transsexualism nor gender identity in modern slang among younger individuals. But I guess you're right.. because you're right... because you said so.

Children will always align themselves with a group of other children who share similar physical or social traits, no matter how superficial these traits may be.

So the boy will hang out with girls? Oh sweet Lord in heaven, NOOO! Someone save this child from the abuse!

Your above argument that cross-dressing and homosexuality are different forms of sexual expression becomes completely redundant when you are talking about children interpreting and discerning the differences between the two.

Fag, gay, poof, these insults hold absolutely no linear meaning to children in regards to anything. They are "insulting" words used for everything. And i say insulting in qutations because they are so overused that they will more often than not just be laughed off or countered with something more original like "Good one, Hershey stain".

If a child doesn't fall into the socially accepted parameters of how a boy should look, dress or act, then many other children, who are often influential within a group, will bully and socially ostracise a child for this. The knock-on effect to the victim is huge and, in some cases, extremely difficult to recover from, even after entering adulthood.

And whose parents' fault is that?

Originally posted by TheOrangeBrood
Kids are much more likely to be made fun of these days for their family's financial status than anything.

Yeah, because children walk around with their parents' bank statements tattooed on their hand. Maybe they actually pin photocopies of their parents' welfare cheques to their clothing ?

The vehicle they show up in, the clothes they wear, the dirt on their face... yup, certainly no indicators there.

If I didn't know better, I'd say that your claim that children are ''more likely'' to be made fun of because of their family's financial status was ''fabricated on the spot''.

Yeah, that one stung...

About as much as Sarah Palin trying to "refudiate" something.

2. The financial status of a child's family does not ruin his, or her, chance of forming friendships.

Wow.

Just wow, that's all you get.

These poor children are being involuntarily guided towards freakdom,

Lack of control over social norms = abusive, controlling evilness. That's a real cool analogy.

whereby they will have no meaningful real-world, organic friendships - except those which involve other freaks from thousands of miles away.

Who would want to be friends with a bunch of malicious brats anyways? Their parents aren't forcing him to wear the clothing... if he doesn't want to be made fun of for it... he would stop wearing it. This isn't rocket science.

This is purely an unsanctionable case of egotistical, delusional ''parents'' ruining the lives of their children, and using their progeny as a ''fashion statement'' to express their own personally warped, new-age spiritual, mumbo-jumbo.

Forcing children to be social outcasts is clearly child abuse.

Forcing? Forcing? Letting them choose for themselves = forcing? Please listen to yourself, it's hilarious.

I know plenty about the people who make up the ''younger generations''. Only 10 years ago, in fact, I was also a teenager.

I bet you have lots of "gay friends", "black friends", and "muslim friends", too. BTW, if 10 year ago you were a teenager, you're probably almost 20 full years older than the age group that you are claiming to be relating to. a lot has changed since the 90s.

Your use of the phrase ''younger generations'' only highlights your complete misunderstanding of the myriad of views, beliefs and attitudes which people from these generations hold. Your narrow generalisations about the broad workings of any generation only serves to discredit the argument which you are attempting to make.

I'm sorry if my comments on the harsh realities of modern society distress your delicate sensibilities, or upset your precious view on how humans and human society should operate in your ideal world, but to throw your toys out of the pram and to suggest that I'm ''fabricating on the spot'' is very naughty of you.

Well I can see your maturity has definitely not evolved much in the past "10 years". What a bunch of ad hominem tripe. Congrats, here is your troll badge.

Explanation: Hmmmm?

Personal Disclosure: If OL was a close family member or friend of the family... then I wouldn't worry too much as when the family goes out to the mall or on a very long drive etc. [its garanteed to happen some time! ] and the kid needs to go to the toilets... the sign on the door that the parent takes the kid through [assuming its no longer a baby] to do its business ..... will 99.999% DETERMINE the kids gender regardless.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes


''Who he is'' - say wut ??!!

Did they allow him to consider his options ?

Oh no, they forced their 5-year-old child to adopt the parents' ideology, and they used their own personal ideology to override the needs of their child.

You've raised kids?

I'm not going to bother to quote all those long posts above but I do want to say

I was picked on and bullied and ridiculed for being POOR.

I kept it to myself and I toughed it out and avoided them as much as possible because their IGNORANCE offended me.

I even realized the cause - IGNORANT PARENTS - and whats REALLY sad is now those people I went to school with are the ignorant parents.... passing along their ignorance and disrespect

I was provided with up close, personal, and NUMEROUS examples, and I had all this figured out by the time I was 10.

So stop underestimating the potential for understanding that your children have. Treat them with, and teach them respect. Encourage learning and advise that all things are learning opportunities. Break the ignorance cycle.

PLEASE

Originally posted by Forevever
So stop underestimating the potential for understanding that your children have. Treat them with, and teach them respect. Encourage learning and advise that all things are learning opportunities. Break the ignorance cycle.

I agree with you. I say raise kids from the inside out - - because they do know who they are - - and no one ever really has to live with anyone but themselves. You should like yourself.

Throw in a large does of Integrity and Responsibility.

My granddaughter about to enter middle school is not allowed to use the term "Peer Pressure". She is only allowed to use the term "Personal Responsibility".

We've all suffered Peer Pressure - - but its still an excuse.

reply to post by lcbjr1979


I have definitely noticed what you are talking about. Which is why I also tell my children that if they like something and are interested in learning about it, go for, their gender should not be an issue one way or the other.

It is also the reason why, to this day at age 13 and 17, I still ask them questions about movies and shows that they watch, questions which get's them to thinking about what they are seeing and hearing instead of just letting it soak in without thought.

What is between our legs do not make us what we are, we do that. For those who complain about parents wanting to raise their children without forcing specific gender roles on their children, forcing a specific role is brainwashing, and you seem happy with that form of brainwashing. So I can only assume, you are pretty much ok with brainwashing as long as it follows your own beliefs, which by the way, also comes from brainwashing.

Harm None
Peace