Raising gender-neutral or gender-specific kids.....Does it matter?

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


en.wikipedia.org...

An effeminate man. Who happened to expand the French Empire quite brutally.

If you look at his son (okay it might not actually have been his son), you'll see they were even more effeminate.

en.wikipedia.org...

Another effeminate man.

Originally posted by eleventhsun
The 5 year old kid likes wearing braids in his hair.

Well I've seen thousands of men that like braids in their hair, and as most of you know there are probably hundreds of variations of styles and combos of braids you can do, some females wear more often and some men, some both.

I wonder why it is this 5 year old kid happens to like the way that is most commonly worn by girls and not one of the hundreds of other styles? Does he even know the difference or did they braid his hair like a girl on purpose?

Its a good question.

Why not a "native" braid?

reply to post by Aeons


Exactly! or any braid for that matter. Did he choose it, or did they give it to him and say it looked good?

I just have a feeling from reading about these parents. I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess all of their kids will just happen to want to dress in the opposite gender by their own choice.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

Those parents are going a little far in the sense that they are not acknowledging gender verbally, but by the time those kids go to school, they will already know what their gender identity is, and they will probably have a lot less trouble than you think.

They will not, because nobody taught them. The oldest one already pushed school one year later because of these issues according to the article.

It is the role of parents to inform and prepare their children for real human society, not their idealistic one. Gender roles ARE an essential part of human society. I do think these parents are failing in this regard, only due to their crazy ideology.

reply to post by Aeons


Louis XIII was suspected of batting for the other side, and most Ancient Greeks and Romans used to bowl a couple from the other side of the wicket.

The point being, that there is nothing wrong with gay men being effeminate. The ''men'' that induce my nausea are effeminate heteros.

There are no mitigating factors which reasonably excuses their wussiness !

Originally posted by Maslo


They will not, because nobody taught them. The oldest one already pushed school one year later because of these issues according to the article.

Gender identity is innate, its wired into the brain before you are even born. Gender ROLES are not. They are learned and imposed upon people by parents, and/or society. Lots of kids end up having school delayed, and while I personally think the parents are a little extreme, I do understand their reasoning.

School is one place where harmful stereotypes are often reinforced a lot. I can remember flat out being told many times that males are better in math, and in primary school, my grades reflected that. As an adult, I realized it for what it was, and I always got the highest grades in my class in maths, statistics, etc., in college, and in Chemistry, I got the highest grade in ALL the sections my teacher taught that semester. (She used competition to motivate us and posted the scores.)

What adults tell children impacts them. It can undermine self confidence, and lets face it, there are some really nut ball people who take up teaching, they arent all wonderful great people. I dont wouldnt want some religious fanatic of any stripe shaming my kids (if I had any) into the gender roles of THEIR choosing.

I had a couple of math teachers actually tell me that I should just stay home and have babies and not worry about it.

As an adult, I started treating Math like it was a language and taught myself calculus in 3 days.

reply to post by Aeons


I think for me the biggest problem with math was that at lower levels I was trying to figure out its deeper meaning, when, there was none.

The big revelation for me was that it was just rote memorization and there didnt need to be "meaning' in basic math and algebra. Something I found very interesting was that math homework (including calc,) was much easier when performed under herbal influence. Not because of its "mind expanding" capabilities, but because it dumbed me down enough to make me more able to enjoy just mindless calculation. In my normal mindset, I just find it repetitive and boring, with my brain turned on "stupid" it became almost fun.

Its easy to understand why brain damage can actually lead to mathematical savants.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Gender roles are an important part of current human society, and as such it is the responsibility of the parents to teach their children about them, what society considers acceptable and what it does not, irregardless of their personal opinion about the subject. Otherwise they will be ridiculed by society. It is not right to put small children through this.

You could use the same logic to justify your children walking around naked, mandatory clothes are also just a social norm. Would that not be irresponsible, borderline emotional child abuse? Would the children not be ridiculed?

It is not the role of small children to break societal barriers, period.

Also, notice that the parents in the photo do in fact conform to societal norms, those hypocrites..

Originally posted by Maslo

You could use the same logic to justify your children walking around naked, mandatory clothes are also just a social norm. Would that not be irresponsible, borderline emotional child abuse? Would the children not be ridiculed?

You are asking the wrong person that question. I grew up in rural Hawaii, and children did in fact walk around in various states of nakedness well into childhood. There was one girl who regularly would take her top off all the way up to the 5th grade when playing sports, and she really didnt get ridiculed by anyone, even though most of us did wear shirts by then. She didnt start wearing her shirt all the time til she started developing boobs.

You forget, you version of society is just one. Not the only possible one. And your version of what gender roles are and should be do not cover even the whole mainland US. I have lived in various places as an adult, and there is a big difference rural to city, and west to east. You just seem very small minded in that you really believe that there is only ONE way things can be and they MUST be that way, and honestly? Reality doesnt reflect that at all.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


If the society where they live is accepting of such girl-boys, I would not have a problem with it. But I dont think it is so. That is my point. Parents need to guide their children to conform to societal norms, even those they disagree with. When they grow up, THEN they can begin to break them, informed about all the consequences and out of their own free will.

Originally posted by greeneyedleo
reply to post by galadofwarthethird

 

But putting the "norm" and "society" aside....I do question if this REALLY matters at the end of the day.....going back to our roots as humans......society has dictated what a boy can be, how a boy should dress and how a boy should behave. Boys are not born wanting blue and trucks and GIJoes....

Society did not define our gender roles, nature did.

Man = strong, hunter, provider, blah, blah, blah
Woman = lifegiver, nuturer, blah, blah, blah

We are just getting to the point now where society (with an ample helping of technology) will undo those roles, as we no longer have to adhere to nature's rules for survival. It won't be much longer until you will literally be able to change your gender to suit the roles you have chosen. We just haven't gotten there yet.

As for the boys in blue, wanting trucks...well, seeing as trucks themselves are just over 100 years old, I would say that we just used whatever the current representation for boy or girl was at the time.

I'm glad my parents recognized my gender and raised me to be a mentally healthy young man. This child will be so messed up if someone doesn't catch him or her before the age of seven.

Because, you could never have ended up being a man if someone hadn't shown you?

So guys. Are you telling me that men are a complete social construction, and that without society and other men forcing it that you're all just a bunch of hairless chimpanzees?

This is a tough one and I can see merit in some of the opinions on both sides. It helps to be able to relate, in this case. I can see not wanting to force gender stereotypes on a child because I had to deal with that. I am a female and I don't wear dresses or skirts. I just prefer not to. I was always more of a "tomboy" and I played with the boys and with their toys. Sure, I had dolls because my parents bought them for me, but as soon as I saw action figures or hotwheels, I was all over them lol. I have had people try to limit what I do to "girl" activities even though I preferred others. I'll never forget when I was a summer program and I wanted to take an archery class. When I signed up, one of the instructors actually took my name off of the roster because it was a "boy" activity. It felt incredibly crappy, because I really wanted to take that class.

What I can agree with is the notion that gender affects how we interact with others and in my opinion, it should not be that way. Don't treat me differently because I am a woman. Don't categorize me or put me in any box because of my gender. Unless you are looking to date me, it shouldn't matter. So, I guess because of all that I can agree with what the parents are doing. What can damage the child is how they may be doing it. Allowing the child to figure out who they are and where they fit in the world is one thing. Trying to make a point forcing their idea of a "genderless" child is another.

Your reasoning stand true, let the person, whatever gender they might be, be who they want to be. None of this "ohh he's a girl." or "ohh she's a guy." just leave them alone and don't mind what they do.

reply to post by Aeons


I am all for not sharing anything about your children with the public..but how confused is this child going to be when they are old enough to start using a public bathroom, let alone school. All I can see from this 'experiment' the parents are performing will be psychological problems for a person forever and years and years of therapy. Instead of risking your child's sanity, why not raise them as the gender they are, then be the most supportive parent and let them know that you chose them to be happy in whatever they do in their lives...I'm just saying..

get this crap off ats

stop paying attention to these idiots

if you stop giving them attention

they will stop acting like jackasses

they are only doing this for attention

and its clearly working

reply to post by Aeons

Can you tell me what it is that I don't know about being female. Because, I seem to be doing a pretty good job of it over all. I'd like to know what the source of your expertise is.

Many things no doubt but it does not matter, so whatever! do as you will, perspectives, perspectives.

My source of expertise? I really do not know what that means. You say that like you need something other then eyes, ears, and a mind to see what you see about anybody and anything including females. So how about this as my source of expertise, the hitchhikers guide to all things earthly, and sometimes the akashic records, does that answer your weird question. A weird answer to a weird question.

reply to post by greeneyedleo

I do believe that the way these parents are raising their kids is not healthy because of how society will treat them. They cannot force society to be acceptating.

What there doing is kind of pointless, and it does not prove anything but whatever point that they have in there mind's for themselves not there kids. And society is society, and in school or any other place were these kids are going to be on there own for a while you can bet they will attract attention, and most likely bad attention from others. Just think back to your childhood everybody hanged in groups like them, and if anybody was different they would of got picked on by both genders males and females in those groups.

Just imagine if they were at school and lets say the kid storm is a biological boy and has his hair in braids like the girls and wears pink dresses. What do you think will happen? He will be picked on by the little boys, and the little girls will probably make his life miserable, and he will never want to go back again and it would confuse him for a long while if not for life. And that is the most likely scenario.

But more importantly they are not raising there kids gender neutral they are raising them gender ignorant. They have failed to take into account the millenia of conditions and the practical reasons for why things are the way they are.

But I still question whether or not, at the end of the day, society aside....does it all matter....

And thats the thing if they wanted what some people a call gender neutral society, it will have to come naturally over periods of time and generations. So no in the end it does not matter, all roads lead to singularities and if society will change it will not be in one day or because some parents want it to. No matter what they say Rome was not build in one day, nor did it fall in one day.

So no it does not matter at all, and in the long run I don't think anybody has a choice. So why put your kid trough all that possible hardship if it can be avoided in the moment and times that you live, the only choice you would probably have is not to burden them more with anything that would be a weight on them and there lot if its not absolutely necessary.