92 year old peaceful muslim woman remembers

reply to post by Violater1


Again with the Zionist auto-cannibalism. You guys crack me up

reply to post by lifeissacred

it condones fighting only in self defence and martyrdom only when it's involuntary

Shall i really go through the history with you? What about all the wars of expansion? I love you Islam apologists. Everytime one group does something bad, even though it strengthens Islam and thus is really appreciated by the greater Islamic community - the umma - you say "oh mainstream islam doesnt support that"......"a Bad name"?...A name is the EXTERNAL perception. And the EXTERNAL perception is all that matters in saying "You are giving Islam a bad name".. He says what Muslim scholars really believe, but since this Al Qaradawi DOES INDEED have millions of listerners, on AL JAZEERA (and why are they giving him a platform?), his views ARE popular and DO influence millions of Muslims. But his '2,400' ideological opponents benefit the "name" of Islam in the west by opposing Al Qaradawi, even though historically Islam has conducted itself exactly as Al Qaradawi advises.

Its also amusing that despite Al Qaradawis radical views, the UK has provided him safehaven.

merely the way certain people misrepresent it.

That again is a lie? If I keep quoting the Quran, Hadiths and legal authries like Averroes, Al Ghazali, Ibn Hazm, Ibn Qudama,Ibn Khaldun?? I have plenty of quotes of theirs but at this time in the night i am not interesting in typing all that up.. You'd probably just come back and repeat "thats not what the Quran teaches"

You are quite a stubborn man......When people attack Judaism, do hey not attack the Talmud? Or the Shulchan Aruch? Or whatever commentaries they can find that imply something negative about non-Jews?

Why doesnt this same standard apply to Muslims? Why can we ignore the hadiths and commentaries from theologians and jurists which actually express what Muslims have actually done throughout history.

There were hundreds of thousands of refugees from Israel, whether they arrived there 20 years before they were displaced or 1000 years before they were displaced is a non-issue. Of course this is all history and cannot be undone, but it's because of this history that it's important that people don't just ignore the genuine grievences of the Palestinians or simply attribute any outrageous act committed against Israel as 'religious extremism' considering the complex history of the region.

Heres a little more history. Between 1948 and 1960, 800,000 Jews became refugees from Arab countries because of the increase persecution and massacres in Morocco, Egypt, Alegeria, Libya, Iraq Yemen, Syria...It happened everywhere. When these Jews left, do you think they were compensated? This is of course what the world would expect, is it not? NOPE. 45 billion dollars (in todays value) worth of assets were confiscated by their governments. NOTHING WAS RECIEVED. Did the world complain? Nope. They were busy demonizing the Jews and issuing UN declarations against them... In the same time that zionism ws called 'racism' Jews were being airlifted out Yemen, because the Yemenite government wouldnt let them out.

In anycase. 30,000 Arabs lived in Jewish settled areas of Palestine. When the state of Israel was declared, the whiney bratty Arabs could have had their own state in the western half of modern israel. Did they take it? NOOOOO. They declared WAR and killed 2000 Jewish soldiers. They lost, and like losers they lose what they had. War is a RISK, and like all Risk (like the game risk) you have to be willing to sacrifice something if you lose. They lost. They lost the land the UN gave them. Then in '67 they attacked the Jew again, the Jews won, they gained more land. Out of deference for "peace" they gave the entire sinai peninsula to Egypt. Any international "kudos" for that gesture....maybe for a week.. Didnt take long for the Arabs to start their bitching again.

it's so lame, both side starting to get tiresome with their war, ... confrentation between Jew vs arab, arab vs Jew ... it really does not make sense anymore, and there is nor good or bad side both are pathetic...it's just a story of money and power like everywhere, both side do nothing but complain, look what they did and the other side say look what they are doing...there is no right or wrong side,Jewish and Arabic are the same, a Pain in the Neck to stay polite...

reply to post by dontreally

Ummm.. What on earth are you talkin about? Do all threads which discuss Palestinians have to tie exactly into the Israel-Palestine conflict? This merely points out that in PALESTINE - and NOT IN AMERICA, OR EUROPE, ie; in a western paradigm, where the Muslims you regard as normal are not subject to the Islamic paradigm, being that they live in a non-muslim country, and so accordint to Islamic jurisprudence are NOT supposed to be friendly towards non-Muslims, or, at the very least, are following a different Islam that the VAST MAJORITY of muslims, living in Muslim countries follow - theres an incredibly fanatical and radical hatred for Jews, where mention of a horrendous massacre of Jews 80 years earlier evokes Arab pride and glory, as opposed to regret and shame. .............

You guys tied this example of violence and the current conflict together. A poster on this thread used it as a justification for Israel presence. The initial comment wasn't aimed at you, but you replied trying to explain the relevance and you failed. Hence my question "how is this tragic massacare relevant to the current situation?"

at the very least, are following a different Islam that the VAST MAJORITY of muslims, living in Muslim countries follow - theres an incredibly fanatical and radical hatred for Jews, where mention of a horrendous massacre of Jews 80 years earlier evokes Arab pride and glory, as opposed to regret and shame

Have you ever lived in an Islamic country? How may muslims have you actually invited into your home, shared food with ect? - These radical views are not retained by the majority of Muslims. Infact I would go as far to say that the majority of Shia don't retain such views. Provide me hard evidence that the majority of muslims are violent, anti-Semteic extremists.

You merely reiterate the views on CNN of "Islam is a religion of peace"...

a) I don't watch CNN
b) You merely reiterate FOX news "Muslims are crazy and Islam is evil"
c) I'm not saying Islam is a religion of peace, I'm saying the majority of devote and moderate Muslims (many being Shia) who have lived in Middle Eastern countries do no retain the extremist views you claim most do

So because he is a Shi'te, his views apply specifically to Israels Northern enemy, Hizbollah, who of course are Shi'te.

So you claim one individual speaks for all Shia muslims. Ok two can play at that game. You know those settlers that kill, intimidate and hate Muslims? Well I guess all Jews are like those guys.

I'm sure you have read the Old Testament - You can easily conclude that there are a multitude of violent passages.

Seriously.. What is fear mongering about quoting Ayotollah Khomeni - a major figure in Shi'te Islam, or Yusuf Al Qaradawi, a major cleric who has A SHOW ON AL JAZEERA? Are you INSANE!? Seriously. Im simply quoting verbatim their words and saying, " Do you see...Islam does not intend peace! as we are told by the Media". These are THEIR WORDS.

I didn't state that quoting Khomeine was fear mongering I'm saying your demonization of the Arab, Muslim and Shia people is. You continuously claim the vast majority are violent without providing proof other then a few individuals speaking for themselves. I don't quote a solitude Jew and state that this is the way all Jews think becuase it is untrue, yet you quote a single Muslim and state that this is how all muslims think.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant

Have you ever lived in an Islamic country? How may muslims have you actually invited into your home, shared food with ect? - These radical views are not retained by the majority of Muslims. Infact I would go as far to say that the majority of Shia don't retain such views. Provide me hard evidence that the majority of muslims are violent, anti-Semteic extremists.

That is just such nonsense.. Where do you live? I live in Toronto and if you know anything about Toronto, it is the most multcultral city on earth behind London. I WORK with Arabs and Persians and I see with my own eyes and hear with my own ears their prejudice against Jews and Israel. Of course, they have to 'tone it down' since it isnt appropriate to talk that way at work, but when they arent at work, and a casual conversation comes up about Jews or Israel...My G-d.....You reeally must not know any Arabs or Persians because I know HUNDREDS, my sisters best friend is a persian and shes constantly, even though 3 years back shoe wouldnt have cared, berating Jews/Zionists/Israel because her new boyfriend (who of course is Persian) is a seething anti-semite.

Welcome to the world, militantspeech. How old are the muslims you talk to? The younger generation are HORRIBLE. Im talking about 30 and younger. They're idealistic, and have this unbelievable prejudice against Jews and Israel. It is quite a horrifying sight....Too many times my sister has come home (were portuguese/canadian) from hanging out with her friend and her friends - who of course are all persian - and she tlls me stories about when the subject of Jews or Israel comes up they get incredibly opinionated/prejudiced and my sister with her sense of justice and morality can hardly sit there and listen to their bigotted nonsense.

b) You merely reiterate FOX news "Muslims are crazy and Islam is evil"

Which is why i quoted verbatim the views of two modern Islamic giants? Ayotollah Khomeni when he lived was the "grand mufti" of Shi'te Islam. Are you even aware of that? And Yusuf Al Qaradawi regardless of what his 'peers' say about him is given a platform on Al Jazeera to propogate his views which as we can see have influenced the policies of Hamas - since theyre constantly involved in "martyr" missions, the muslim brotherhood, Al Qaeda, performing terrorist attacks in every country in the middle-east, india, east indies...

) I'm not saying Islam is a religion of peace, I'm saying the majority of devote and moderate Muslims (many being Shia) who have lived in Middle Eastern countries do no retain the extremist views you claim most do

What difference does it make? THEIR GOVERNMENTS DO! And the people follow what their governments tell them, or moreso, dupe them into doing......Do you think its hard for the government to transform a latent, minor anti-semitism into a full-blown hatred? Look at 1948. After the Arab defeat Jews in Arab countries were being hunted down. Please, if you doubt me go look up the history. There were over 10 pograms in this period. Arabs came in packs into the Jewish quarters in Morocco, Algeria, Egypt, Yemen, and in Iraq there were public hangings of Jews..... All because they lost... Are you seriously thinking the Jews of Iran are safe? Mark my words. If Israel goes to war with any Arab country, or Lebanon, or Iran, those Jews will be victimized by "lawless" persians who the police of course will allow to cause a raucous in the Jewish quarter, as has happened over and over again in the past.

you know those settlers that kill, intimidate and hate Muslims?

wtf? ...no...because that has never happened..Where the hell are you getting this? Do you really have to make things up now? The settlers are 19-25 year old religious Jews.. They dont even have weapons... Whom have they killed?

I'm sure you have read the Old Testament - You can easily conclude that there are a multitude of violent passages.

And that is it. Other than the WARS - since they were wars, between the kings of canaan and Israel, the Jews have not fought any wars of expansion...Their history is quite pacific compared to Islam and their crusades in North Africa, Central Asia and India (where they killed millions)....

didn't state that quoting Khomeine was fear mongering I'm saying your demonization of the Arab, Muslim and Shia people is. You continuously claim the vast majority are violent without providing proof other then a few individuals speaking for themselves. I don't quote a solitude Jew and state that this is the way all Jews think becuase it is untrue, yet you quote a single Muslim and state that this is how all muslims think.

Wow.. You seriously have no comprehenson of human behavior, politics etc... Do you get that a person like Khomeni projects power and authority? Do you know how many deeply relgious shi'ite regard him as a latter day prophet? His words are not the words of just "one" muslim. His words represent the belief of millions, becaue his words unlike the words of som pauper, are heard and respected, just like in school on reveres the words of his teacher, or any person he learns from. This is how human beings function.

reply to post by dontreally


Being Jewish is not a title to be dropped or picked up as one chooses to follow or abandon a particular narrative.

I am a Jew. More than that, I am an Israeli. More than that, I've served in the IDF in a combat role.

Look at this thread or at filosophias post. He has a weird compulsion to justify everythng the Arabs do and criticize th zionists

Let us not stoop down to his level, my opinions are much more complex than "we good, they bad".

Get a Clue. You SHOULD NOT forget. Your memory of the past prevents this evil from occurring again.

This is not about forgetting, this is about condemning.

Do we condemn the entire validity of a peace process, or coexistence, for the actions of a few radicals? For the actions of many radicals? For acts that happened during our grandparents' 20's?

For instance, should I hate all German people for what the Nazis did to the Jews?

Or should I simply dislike those that hate Jews for no apparent reason?

There's a big difference.

With respect,
Eliad.

reply to post by Violater1

A distinct group of people gleefully butchering, raping, and burning people alive only 09 years ago and you say, "so what" and then "with respect." You have no respect for people.

No, I'm simply asking, what now?

We've killed, they've killed, where do we go from here?

What does this woman's testimony mean? That we will never be able to coexist? That Arabs are inherently cruel? What?

With respect (to you and your opinions),
Eliad.

reply to post by Eliad

Being Jewish is not a title to be dropped or picked up as one chooses to follow or abandon a particular narrative

My point was: is it worth the turmoil that goes along with it? Do you really believe that 'forgetting' will solve the problems of anti-semitism? Like i said, that scheme has already been played out, and look at how it ended up. Germany, Poland, Austria, France, Hungry etc Jews were very assimilated, especially in Germany, and Warsaw, Budapest, Vienna.....These Jews kept the "Jew" title, as you do, discarded the religion, as you do, and chose to forget their painful past, as you do... Whats the difference between you and them?

I am a Jew. More than that, I am an Israeli. More than that, I've served in the IDF in a combat role.

I appreciate your stubborn insistence on keeping the "Jew" title. If i wanted, i could become a Jew through conversion. Do you believe that? Do you understand how being Jewish is MORE than just an ethnic distinction?

Do we condemn the entire validity of a peace process, or coexistence, for the actions of a few radicals? For the actions of many radicals? For acts that happened during our grandparents' 20's?

Have you read anything about Islam? do you get why i continue to bring this subject up?

Or should I simply dislike those that hate Jews for no apparent reason?

Whos talking about hating gentiles? IM A GENTILE. I speak to you as Gentile. I am apart of this community. I love all people, Jew or Gentile. But i am also very realistic about what threatens the existece of the Jewish people. I care for the Jews because i have grown knowledgeable in their Torah, and the Kabbalah, and so i care to apply my political knowledge (i go to school for this) in defence of Israel, the Jewish people and Judaism.

Why in the first place should Israel and the Jews concede? Why should they give up Judea and Samaria, when those are the heart and soul of the land of Israel? Why cant they settle in any of their 22 states? Why cant Saudi Arabia, or Iraq, Syria, etc take them in? Israel, is NOT their land. Only 30,000 of them lived in the Jewish settled areas, first of all, but more importantly, the Hebrew Bible, the ancient, glorious backbone of western civilization ANTICIPATED what is happening today. The Arabs who lived in the interim were simply tenants. Now the original owners are back, as the Hebrew Bible SAID they would. Its not like their return was random.. it was was predicted, now they must go. Its that Simple.

Originally posted by dontreally
My point was: is it worth the turmoil that goes along with it? Do you really believe that 'forgetting' will solve the problems of anti-semitism? Like i said, that scheme has already been played out, and look at how it ended up. Germany, Poland, Austria, France, Hungry etc Jews were very assimilated, especially in Germany, and Warsaw, Budapest, Vienna.....These Jews kept the "Jew" title, as you do, discarded the religion, as you do, and chose to forget their painful past, as you do... Whats the difference between you and them?

dontreally, I don't really think you're at all interested in stopping antisemitism. In fact, as you are a gentile who pretends to be Jewish with alarming frequency, and uses that claim to justify your own hatreds, ignorance, and vitriol, along with a severely ill-educated version of Jewish history, you're pretty antisemitic yourself - granted, it's probably unintentional.

Back to point though, anti-semitism is just too useful a tool for both extremes of it - it's a strong recruitment tool for the likes of neo-nazis, and on hte other hand, its continued existence is a prime factor in keeping the more bloodthirsty and power-hungry sorts in power among Israel politics and in certain Jewish groups elsewhere in the world. Neither agenda has any interest in actually stopping antisemitism - in fact, both have more interest in expanding the scope of antisemitism; this is why the neo-nazi sorts keep blaming everything on "Jewish conspiracies" while the zionist sorts keep asserting that literally everything is "anti-semitism." The two extremes basically feed off each other, as extremes tend to do, with a hapless middle caught between them.

I appreciate your stubborn insistence on keeping the "Jew" title. If i wanted, i could become a Jew through conversion. Do you believe that? Do you understand how being Jewish is MORE than just an ethnic distinction?

Might want to tell Eliad that, by your unquestionable standards, he's actually not a Jew, and by your own arguments, he should be driven from his nation as a criminal and an imposter.

Have you read anything about Islam? do you get why i continue to bring this subject up?

I'll bet Eliad probably has more experience with Islam than "reading about it." I know I do. You clearly don't. And you continue to bring the subject up because you think it makes you cool, just like how you think pretending to be a Jew grants you immunity for your hatred of Muslims.

Whos talking about hating gentiles? IM A GENTILE. I speak to you as Gentile. I am apart of this community. I love all people, Jew or Gentile. But i am also very realistic about what threatens the existece of the Jewish people. I care for the Jews because i have grown knowledgeable in their Torah, and the Kabbalah, and so i care to apply my political knowledge (i go to school for this) in defence of Israel, the Jewish people and Judaism.

In other words, you're to Judaism what these guys are to the Chicago bears:


Daaaah Joowz

Hate to break it to you, but nothing in this day and age actually threatens the existence of the Jewish people; hell, even the Nazis were only a threat to the Jews of Central and Western Europe. If you meant Israel, well, that's a vastly different thing from "The Jewish People." And the biggest threat to Israel is its own policies and its continued support by America's apocalyptic death cultists.

The Arabs who lived in the interim were simply tenants. Now the original owners are back, as the Hebrew Bible SAID they would. Its not like their return was random.. it was was predicted, now they must go. Its that Simple.

I excised the rest of your atrocious history from this post, because I've already addressed it all at least three times in reply to you in other threads, and who knows how many times in reply to other posters. However, I found this part interesting.

I want you to, for a moment, just pretend God isn't real. I know you're a religious person and all, but for a moment, pretend that God isn't real, that the Torah, New Testament, Koran, Book of Moromon, Upanishads, etc, are just scribbles written by priest castes trying to justify their own existence.

Does the situation you just spoke make a single lick of sense, in this new context? I don't think it would, since your argument hinges on a deed granted by god, preserved only in the handwriting of thepeople who supposedly recieved it. Would a deed you wrote for yourself stand up in a court of law anywhere? Probably not, right?

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

dontreally, I don't really think you're at all interested in stopping antisemitism. In fact, as you are a gentile who pretends to be Jewish with alarming frequency, and uses that claim to justify your own hatreds, ignorance, and vitriol, along with a severely ill-educated version of Jewish history, you're pretty antisemitic yourself - granted, it's probably unintentional.

And how exactly am i antisemitic? And when have i pretended to be a Jew? I think i emphasize that enough so people dont get that impression.

Look up the concept of Bnei Noach, and Noahide.

this is why the neo-nazi sorts keep blaming everything on "Jewish conspiracies" while the zionist sorts keep asserting that literally everything is "anti-semitism."

Sure...That system works today, i wont deny it. But was that the case in pre-Nazi Germany? Were there any Jewish groups decrying "anti-semitism"? Jews tried as hard as possible to remain Jews, but as German Jews, or Polish Jews. The nation they lived in became the more important distinction....

Did this prevent anti-semitism? Obviously your theory makes no sense. Anti-semitism, or more simply "Jew hatred", whether hatred of Judaism, or simply the ancestral residue of not trusting Jews, has been prevalent wherever the Jews have been.

The culprit? The governments, clergy...All people who had a bone to pick with those Jews who defend Judaism whom the gnostic/christian pagans dislike so much.

Might want to tell Eliad that, by your unquestionable standards, he's actually not a Jew, and by your own arguments, he should be driven from his nation as a criminal and an imposter.

Where did you get that from? I never said once that he wasnt a Jew. Do i dislike his beliefs? Yes. Very much so. Does that mean i consider him not Jewish? No.. I just said what has always been the case; being Jewish is more than just an ethnic distinction.

I'll bet Eliad probably has more experience with Islam than "reading about it." I know I do. You clearly don't. And you continue to bring the subject up because you think it makes you cool, just like how you think pretending to be a Jew grants you immunity for your hatred of Muslims.

This is pretty lowbrow... First, i can care less if i appear "cool". Im not 17 anymore.

Second, i have many books on my books shelfs that are Islamic. Ive never read the Quran, granted. Though i do have a few books on Sufi philosophy (which i appreciate), Rumi, a few books on the danger of radical islam, and one particular book that i think Eliad would benefit in reading: The legacy of Jihad. A book which culls statements from the Quran, Hadiths, and major Islamic commentators/theologians and Jurists...

Is it not important to know what Muslims think with regard to war? Islam believes it is destined to conqeur the whole world...Why is it im being called a "muslim hater" for stating that? Its true. If i hated Islam i wouldnt have so many books on Sufi Philosopy. I truly do appreciate its softer, spiritual side. Its its political agenda that disturbs me.

In other words, you're to Judaism what these guys are to the Chicago bears:

Right.

Hate to break it to you, but nothing in this day and age actually threatens the existence of the Jewish people; hell, even the Nazis were only a threat to the Jews of Central and Western Europe. If you meant Israel, well, that's a vastly different thing from "The Jewish People." And the biggest threat to Israel is its own policies and its continued support by America's apocalyptic death cultists

Umm... You realize Hilter befriended the grand mufti of Jerusalem, and the Grand Mufti Hitler because he wanted to export Hitlers 'final solution' for the Jews to Israel. If germany Had won the war, he would have undoubtedly succeeded in destroying all European/North African/Asian Jewry.

Does the situation you just spoke make a single lick of sense, in this new context? I don't think it would, since your argument hinges on a deed granted by god, preserved only in the handwriting of thepeople who supposedly recieved it. Would a deed you wrote for yourself stand up in a court of law anywhere? Probably not, right?

Thank G-d for knowledge. If you knew a thing about the Torah, or the Hebrew language you would be as committed and assured as i am in the historical destiny of the Jewish people.

And to clairify the above statement, because i know how people like you think. This world isnt some mistake. Instead of looking at it as you do; as an escape from a world of illusion, or a world that just exists without explanation, the Torah and the Hebrew language prove definitvely to any person incisive enough to understand that there IS a creator of all the wonders of form we experience upon being born into this world. This World ISNT a mistake. There is MEANING in our living and acting in this world and that purpose lies in mankinds own conscience - his ability to understand morally right from wrong.

This is what makes the Jewish people and their Torah so special, and indeed why this smallest of nations has contributed more to the advancement of mankind than any other people; to guide the rest of us; pagans like you who are fixed in their arrogant certainty of things being perfect or whatever idolatrous doctrine you subscribe to. and i dont have problems with Hindus, or Buddhists, persay. If theyre moral, upright people, theyre performing the creators will. But some choose to 'live in the abstract' ignoring the real time cause and effect relationship between what they do and how it can hurt others. They repress their G-dly soul in service to some ideal that corrupts G-ds purpose for mankind....

You can believe what you want thewalkingfox.... You sound like an old man who has lived long and so is insulted when a guy like me, who you probably think is much younger (since im in school after all) is in no position to give you advice, or to disagree with you. This is why i mostly avoid your posts and responses to me. It goes nowhere.

You and I are like Oil and water; we dont mix. Your beliefs oppose mine and mine yours. Its useless continuing our discussion. Its also blatantly apparent to anyone with an understanding of gnostic or buddhist ideas that you dont have much respect for an idea like "truth" since you twist it so often to create the perception you want to create. This means that i will tire myself wasting words on you...

Although i have a habit of responding to idiots, like backinblack, i find it easier to ignore people like you. You im sure lie and lie without caring that youre lying because perhaps in your twisted mind, its not lying, but a truth..i dont know... Buddhism can be very weird. All i know is that youre a liar, and an insulting, lowbrow one who rolls around with the pigs thinking its completely natural and right...I know people like you. My teacher and good friend helped me understand what people like you think. Sabbatean gnosticism seems to be right up your ally.

reply to post by dontreally


I am completely alienated to the encounters you have had with Persian/Muslims/Arabs. The Muslims I have met are students- and not once have I heard them say anything anti-Semetic. Seriously not once. Infact they avoid discussing Israel when it is brought up. I am not to sure if what you are saying is true.

As for you claiming settlers never kill or have killed muslims.
www.dailymail.co.uk...
www.jeremiahhaber.com...
mondoweiss.net...
english.aljazeera.net...
josephdana.com...
www.paltelegraph.com...:israeli-settlers-kill-palestinian-teen&catid=59:west-bank&Itemid=183
www.jerusalemites.org...
www.ynetnews.com...

In fact it is well known that settlers tend to be extreme right pro-Zionists

Wow.. You seriously have no comprehenson of human behavior, politics etc... Do you get that a person like Khomeni projects power and authority? Do you know how many deeply relgious shi'ite regard him as a latter day prophet? His words are not the words of just "one" muslim. His words represent the belief of millions, becaue his words unlike the words of som pauper, are heard and respected, just like in school on reveres the words of his teacher, or any person he learns from. This is how human beings function.

No doubt, he had manu supporters while he was alive and his succsesor Khameini has many supporters too. Almost all are Shia and many are extremely conservative Muslims with anti-Semetic views. However to say that he speaks for the majority of Muslims is falsehood. Coincidently I have studied Iran, the Islamic Revolution, Persian history, Russia's and Britains occupation of Iran, the overthrow of Mossadeq and the Shah.

People like you claim that Khoomeini had the support of all the Iranian people as the revolution intensified. This however is false. The leftists and many others ralied behind Khomeini only for the factor that he was the tool they would use to overthrow the Shah.
Infact most Iranians didn't know his true intentions as he constantly lied to them.

In the Islamic Republic the rights of the religious minorities are respectfully regarded.
Interview for Austrian television, Paris, (6 November 1978), as quoted in "Democracy? I meant theocracy — The most truthful individual in recent history" by Dr. Jalal Matini,and Farhad Mafie, in The Iranian (5 August 2003)
Personal desire, age, and my health do not allow me to personally have a role in running the country after the fall of the current system.
Associated Press interview in Paris (7 November 1978); repeated on several occasions before Khomeini returned to Iran
In Iran's future Islamic system everyone can express their opinion, and the Islamic government will respond to logic with logic.
Speech (9 November 1978), as quoted in The Most Truthful Individual in Recent History" in Iranshenasi, Vol. XIV, No. 4 (Winter 2003), as translated by Farhad Mafie
In the Islamic government all people have complete freedom to have any kind of opinion.
Interview with Human Rights Watch, Paris (10 November 1978)
After the Shah's departure from Iran, I will not become a president nor accept any other leadership role. Just like before, I limit my activities only to guiding and directing the people.
Le Monde interview in Paris (9 January 1979)

Every Persian I have met has denounced Khomeini and Khameini. It wasn't only till after the revolution and after the end of the Iran-Iraq war till the Persians noticed what a mistake it was to allow Khomeini to obtain power. So no you are wrong when you state that most Shia muslims follow his ideals. That is just a rediculous statement. Educate yourself on the matter before making up blatant falsehoods. Wow... You must have no comprehension on human behaviour and politics.... See two can play at that game.

And that is it. Other than the WARS - since they were wars, between the kings of canaan and Israel, the Jews have not fought any wars of expansion...Their history is quite pacific compared to Islam and their crusades in North Africa, Central Asia and India (where they killed millions)....

Dosen't change the fact that the Old Testamen has violent passages just like the Koran. The last true exansionist Muslim empire were the Ottomons. Look who else had colonies at the time. England, France, Russia and Germany. Why aren't you stating that all white people and all Christians are violent murdering barbarians?

reply to post by dontreally


What's the difference between any of us? We're all basically the same, built the same way, shaped the same way..

My point was: Looking past is not forgetting.

If i wanted, i could become a Jew through conversion. Do you believe that?

You would find Judaism is not an easy religion to be converted to.

Have you read anything about Islam? do you get why i continue to bring this subject up?

I've lived with Muslims, was taken in by, and hung out with Muslims when I lived in Singapore.

Their books say one thing, their lips and minds say different things.
The more modern a society is, the less it take religion to the extreme.

Why in the first place should Israel and the Jews concede? Why should they give up Judea and Samaria, when those are the heart and soul of the land of Israel? Why cant they settle in any of their 22 states? Why cant Saudi Arabia, or Iraq, Syria, etc take them in? Israel, is NOT their land. Only 30,000 of them lived in the Jewish settled areas, first of all, but more importantly, the Hebrew Bible, the ancient, glorious backbone of western civilization ANTICIPATED what is happening today. The Arabs who lived in the interim were simply tenants. Now the original owners are back, as the Hebrew Bible SAID they would. Its not like their return was random.. it was was predicted, now they must go. Its that Simple.

Vanity of vanities, all is vanity.

With respect,
Eliad.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant

www.abovetopsecret.com...

See..you deal with smart arabs/persians.. I do not, mostly at least. The dumb ones dont have the 'inhibition' factor. They dont consider the significance of their open Jew hating around non Muslims.... But those muslims who do not do not because it is literally an accepted Muslim belief that non-believers should not be befriended. And if you do meet their acquaintance, they will be careful with what they say around you, because simply put: youre not Muslim and you do not understand the purpose or depth of Islam. Whether they admit it or not, Islam does intend to conquer the world, and they think that would be for the ultimate good.. Its the last thing in the Quran. Why else would subsequent Muslim theologians separate the world into Dar Al Islam (house of submission) and Dar Al Harb (House of War ie; waiting to be conquered)??

www.dailymail.co.uk...

And all these claims come from palestine.. I know you believe that, thinking that the real evil is the zionist entity and not the Palestinians...How can i combat that prejudice? I KNOW Settlers.. If you even knew whom some of these people were you wouldnt be able to distinguish them from ordinary american youth.. Many are american Jews who moved to Israel. Many others are Israeli youth. All of them are religious

For instance, this girl Link is one of the supposed "extremist settlers"....

What can i say other then its all lies?

However to say that he speaks for the majority of Muslims is falsehood.

And i never said "all muslims". I said Shi'te Islam. IE; Iran, and Lebanon, one of Israels two main enemies.

Every Persian I have met has denounced Khomeini and Khameini.

To be fair, Persians who leave Iran probably hate the religious atmosphere in the country. I can say this because like i said earlier, my sisters friend sogol (thats her name) hates the religious extremism in Iran and hates that she has to abide by archaic laws like covering your hair, not being out without a man... But they leave precisely because they sympathise with western views and dislike the religious severity in Iran.

This doesnt mean that 'most iranians' dislike the religious laws in Iran. To say that would be deemed discriminatory by leftist intellectuals because Shari'a law has been the normative Muslim way of living for a thousand plus years.....That is Islam. The muslims you know clearly arent in line with mainstream Islam.

The last true exansionist Muslim empire were the Ottomons. Look who else had colonies at the time.

The greatest muslim expansion occurred between 680 CE and 1100 CE. You should look up there history and campaigns in North Africa, Armenia (which was absolutely brutal), India, and the Balkans, amongst other places

England, France, Russia and Germany. Why aren't you stating that all white people and all Christians are violent murdering barbarians?

Well, to be fair, that ocurred mostly through subterfuge and exploiation. They had weapons that these primitives didnt have so they knew better then to revolt. But in anycase, you hear the west lamenting their colonial past all the time. But does Islam regret their colonial activities? Even though they continue today in Sudan, Mali, and India? Islam has not regretted a single thing they have done because they see it as necessary to their eventual success in controlling the whole world.

We hear so much about the 'slave trade", and the west certainly shows regret and self deprecation for this history. But does Islam regret its own history of the slave trade in Eastern Africa? Which actually continues till this day in countries like Sudan and Somalia?

reply to post by Eliad


Hate to break it to you Eliad.

Muslims in Singapore are not Muslims in Palestine.

I get you want to believe that all people at heart are the same, but unfortunately that is not completely true because there are different paradigms on planet Earth. All you need to do is read how Islamic theologians interpret their Quran. The Muslims of Singapore are not, due to many different factors, of the same mind as Muslims of the Middle East, North Africa, Central Asia, India, Malaysia, or Indonesia....

If a Muslim does not respect basic aspects of Muslim law - Shari'a, he is genuinely regarded a heretic by most Muslims. It is an offense and insult what you say

The more modern a society is, the less it take religion to the extreme.

Do you get that youre challenging their very way of life? Do you get that they have lived more or less one way, under the Shari'a for a thousand plus years? It is THIS western arrogance that Muslims mostly hate. Not our wealth or power persay ; but our imposition of western values on Muslims.

reply to post by dontreally


The only difference is modernity.

What *is* the difference between Malayans, Indonesians, Indians, Chinese and Singaporean?

There is none.

Singapore is a melting pot of all of these races/nationalities, so what is the difference? Modernity.

That's my theory at least.

Don't you have primitive Christians? In the Southern U.S perhaps? Yeah, you know the ones, Christian, bigoted, hateful, gun toting, is that any different? And they also use religion justify it, don't they?

So, are they all doomed as well, or are there simply good and bad people in their communities as there are in any?

Lastly-

It is not western values that I'm trying to instill in Arab society, but rather the evolution every society goes through once they distance themselves furthermore than the animals we once were.

With respect,
Eliad.

It is true, some people like chopping up Jews. The Palestinians I knew had a problem with settlers taking their land. They did not chop anyone up, they just petitioned the court and after a 40 year court battle, they got their land back from the Isralies. Violence is only used by a small percentage of those who have been wronged in Palestine. Put that disclaimer on the propaganda.

reply to post by Eliad


Eliad. There is no concept of the separation between church and state in Islam. This is a christian concept found in Romans. There is nothing like this in the Quran. So what does that mean? Do you mean to say that Muslims should change their religion the way Jews did?

There are hundreds of millions who reject democracy, womens rights, homosexual rights.. These are based in WESTERN PHILOSOPHY and NOT Islamic theology.

Why do you think there was a succesful uprising in Iran? Because there were enough religious muslims who hated the depravity - what you call 'progress' - of western values....Why would the Muslim Brotherhood be tied in the polls in Egypt for the election in september? Ask yourself that question. Mubarak whether you like him or not was a 'pro western' secrulatist. Not a religious Muslim.

How is this so hard for you to understand?

reply to post by dontreally


As I said, it's a matter of modernity, they teach creationism in Texas, that's not separation of church and state, is it?

And does the West Bank have Sharia law? I don't think that it does..

All religions change in time, according to modern conceptions, Islam will be no different.

There are hundreds of millions who reject democracy, womens rights, homosexual rights.. These are based in WESTERN PHILOSOPHY and NOT Islamic theology.

You're Christian, you know the old and new testament, do you seriously want to go there? Do you really think these things originated in Islam?

These things have nothing to do with religion, it's just the way human cultures evolve.

You think hardcore Christians accept gays? Think again.

Why do you think there was a succesful uprising in Iran? Because there were enough religious muslims who hated the depravity - what you call 'progress' - of western values....Why would the Muslim Brotherhood be tied in the polls in Egypt for the election in september? Ask yourself that question. Mubarak whether you like him or not was a 'pro western' secrulatist. Not a religious Muslim.

How is this so hard for you to understand?

Uh huh..

And in America, this land of the free, with the church separated from the state and all that jazz, has there ever been a president elected that *wasn't* a Christian? That did not promote Christian values?

Maybe you're not so different, you and them.

And as for Iran, you think it's Western values that spooked them off? Wasn't at all the fact that the regime was oppressive, brutal and corrupt?

And as for Egypt, you think that if he wasn't pro Western, or if he was Muslim his oppressive regime would have been popular? Doesn't seem to be the case with Libya.

All in all I don't think Islam itself is the problem. Either religion is the problem, or primitivism is the problem, either way when you combine the two anywhere around the world, even in America, you get whatever it is you think Islam is.

With respect,
Eliad.

reply to post by dontreally


lol I'm a "western muslim", and I don't hate Jews. Am I not true either??

reply to post by dontreally

But those muslims who do not do not because it is literally an accepted Muslim belief that non-believers should not be befriended. And if you do meet their acquaintance, they will be careful with what they say around you, because simply put: youre not Muslim and you do not understand the purpose or depth of Islam.

So you are saying the Muslims I know are secretely plotting to conquer the world? I have never heard anything more stupid in my life. I've known these people for years and they have taken me into their homes and treated me as a member of their familly. They know I am a devote agnostic and they couldn't care less.

I KNOW Settlers.. If you even knew whom some of these people were you wouldnt be able to distinguish them from ordinary american youth

Is that all you can say. "I know MUSLIMS, I know SETTLERS". You keep on saying things like this and expect me to take it as gospel. You said many Muslims hide prejiduce views yet you believe settlers don't? I have never seen a bigger hypocrit in my life. There is documented proof that settlers have shot and killed Palestinians who were unprovoked. You still deny this. I don't deny that Hamas are a bunch of moronic terrorists... They are. But I know as a fact many settlers hold extremist views yet you turn a blind eye to this as you are a jew. Many pro-Zionists will accuse a Palestine support of supporting them blindly. But what you are doing is supporting Israel blidnly.
Here are some Israeli sources
www.btselem.org...
www.btselem.org...
www.btselem.org...,'%25,%25'



www.btselem.org...

Settler violence has occured and is occuring. The sooner you admit it the sooner people will stop regarding your blind support for Israel moronic.

To be fair, Persians who leave Iran probably hate the religious atmosphere in the country.

There are millions of Persians who dislike their Islamic government and want to leave, but are unable becuase they can't obtain a VISA. I know many have came by boat to Australia.

The greatest muslim expansion occurred between 680 CE and 1100 CE. You should look up there history and campaigns in North Africa, Armenia (which was absolutely brutal), India, and the Balkans, amongst other places

You don't have to give me a History lesson. I am from Yugoslavia and was raised to hold prejiduce views against Muslims and Turkish people for somthing that happened before my grandparents were even born. Fortunately I grew up to realise these prejiduces are rediculous.

Britain hasn't apologised for it's colonial past, neither has France or Russia. Infact Britain and France were some of the last countries to hold colonies. Infact Britain still holds onto symbolic land from the colonization era. I am not concerned at all with Islam, it dosen't have the power to control the West. I am far more concerned with the West and their colonial institutions, the IMF, WTO and WBO that rape and pillage the Thrid World through economic imperialism. You can attribute much of Latin American and African poverty as well as poverty in Iraq and other Muslim areas to this. I don't see them apologising for this. I don't see them apologising for overthrowing democracy in South America (Chile, Nicuragua, Guetemala, Uruguay, Argentina, Brazil, Cuba), I don't see them apoligising for overthrowing democracy in Iran and causing the Islamic Revolution. I don't see them apologising for forcing Asian countries (Indonesia, Thailand, South Korea, Malaysia) to take on unpopular economic reforms which lead to increases in suicide, authoritarianism and poverty. I don't see them apoligisng for causing the impovrishment of 72 million Russians when the dictator Boris Yeltsin seized power from the communists and destroyed a only shortly established democracy.

You attribute all the worlds evil to Islam. I wont deny that Muslims have done alot of stupid s#, but the the amount of stupid s# that Muslims have done is far smaller then the amount that the West has.